Needs Help: Retroactive Recognition

Proposal

That the trope "Retroactive Recognition" have its description broadened such that it includes not just actors, but other creators as well.

Motivation

Not long ago, a thread was opened in Trope Talk asking whether writers might be included under Retroactive Recognition. For myself, I saw no reason why not, and indeed, there was some support for the idea, as I recall. However, a convincing argument was made that, as currently written, the trope simply doesn't cover such, and that the Repair Shop would be called for in order to expand it so.

(In all fairness, let me note that there was at least some opposition to the idea, too.)

As mentioned, for myself, I see no reason that non-actors shouldn't be included. After all, the pattern seems the same to me: a creator gains new fame, and as a result their involvement in previous works becomes more conspicuous to the audience. What matter it whether the creator is an actor appearing in a movie, or a writer being listed in the credits, or a singer heard in a song—or whatever?

Conclusion

So, as mentioned above, I propose that the description of "Retroactive Recognition" be expanded to allow for non-actor creators.

No Wick Check?

My feeling is that, for this specific thread, a wick-check would be superfluous: I'm not identifying misuse and suggesting that we expand to include it or perform a cleanup, but rather identifying what I argue is a needless restriction and suggesting that we remove it.

Further, as the restriction in question seems pretty clear, I don't expect there to have been all that many examples added in spite of it.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Dec 17th 2021 at 9:25:26 PM

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Opening.

I am fine with broadening.

Edited by MacronNotes on Dec 18th 2021 at 7:35:22 AM

Macron's notes

I agree with broadening it.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

@MacronNotes: Thank you for opening the thread. ^_^

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Dec 18th 2021 at 2:57:00 PM

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Broadening

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall

Expand- seems fine to me want a clearer definition before expanding

Edited by Tremmor19 on Dec 19th 2021 at 4:35:32 AM

I've seen a few examples of Retroactive Recognition involving writers, so it seems like some people are already using it this way. I'm fine with broadening it.

I'm a little hesitant to jump into expansion. Adding in stuff like voice work, sure, but I'm worried that expanding would lead to misuse - either by connecting two "behind the scenes" roles where the imprint isn't obvious, or by connecting two completely different roles where no one could tell (such as writer and actor).

To the matter of "behind the scenes" roles, if someone notices such a creator and thus starts spotting their presence in other works, then presumably their presence is notable to that someone.

That is, I'm not convinced that the creator's imprint in the work is important—just their presence.

As to different roles within different works, I don't see that as a problem: If a creator becomes famous as an actor, and that fame prompts someone to spot them having been present in other works as a director, then that still seems like the same pattern. The same experience of: "Oh, hey, this person that I'm newly aware of due to new fame also worked on that other thing—I hadn't noticed before!"

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Dec 18th 2021 at 6:08:12 PM

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Actually, that is a good point- how would it work for, say, writers? It makes sense for like a famous director who previously directed a few episodes of an obscure tv show. But if you wrote one book, and then later wrote a more famous book, that wouldn't count, i assume. So what's the actual new criteria?

Hmm... It might not work for books, as such, but it might work for writers working in media that don't make their writers quite as obvious as do books. For example, I would say that a script-writer might work just as well as the example given above of a director. Similarly a writer for a video-game.

Thinking about it, I would say that the basic criterion remains the same: that a new work brings a creator to greater recognition, causing their presence (or at least their identified presence) in prior works to become more noticeable.

Since books tend to have their authors placed very prominently, and with few if any other creators so displayed to hide their presence, the fact that a given author wrote a given book is unlikely to be surprising. Thus they wouldn't likely fit this trope.

However, since a script-writer tends to be less-prominently credited, and is, I think, more likely to be overlooked, they might fit this trope.

[edit] Or put it this way: As the trope current stands, it presumably wouldn't apply to a hypothetical case in which an actor becomes newly-famous, but in which their previous, less-famous movie emblazoned their name in big letters on all of that movie's posters and DVD cases.

The same would remain true for other creators in the expanded version.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Dec 18th 2021 at 8:18:01 PM

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I think the trope is about, loosely, when unpopular Work A gets a spike in popularity after Work B becomes popular because Work B had a well-approved Creator who had a minor role in Work A before (background extra, level programmer, writing assistant).

Edited by Amonimus on Dec 18th 2021 at 11:17:46 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

I said as much in the Trope Talk thread, but essentially I think RR is about non-main parts; so the writer analogue would be someone in a collaborative setting that goes on to helm their own big thing. Breakthrough Hit describes a single-book author who writes a second book that achieves the mainstream success their first book didn't.

My understanding is that it's not quite that. Instead, my understanding is that it's not about the works themselves, but about a creator involved in the works. One who becomes famous, and thus whose presence or involvement in previous works becomes more conspicuous.

In short, it's about that experience of an audience-member becoming more aware of a creator due to that creator becoming newly famous, and then seeing some old work in which that creator was involved, and suddenly noticing them when they were previously overlooked.

I'm not sure that I agree that it's only for small parts.

For example, I could see a case in which an actor, while still an unknown, plays a major part in an indie work. In such a case, an audience-member may well overlook who the actor is. Then, after some more-prestigious part catapults the actor to fame, that audience-member might re-watch the older indie work and think: "Hey! I never realised that this was that guy!"

I do think that small parts are more likely to cause this effect, however.

Either way, I do think that Breakthrough Hit covers such things. Rather, it seems to describe the work that makes a creator famous.

Or put another way, a Breakthrough Hit might make a creator famous, and thus potentially result in the audience experiencing Retroactive Recognition.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Dec 18th 2021 at 11:02:22 AM

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Well I was going from the perspective that the trope is currently used on works' YMMV pages, it wouldn't hurt moving words around in my idea.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

If this requires the older work to be less well known before the actor became famous, then the image is misuse, because Fast Times at Ridgemont High wasn't unknown before Nicolas Cage became famous, and the Vindicated by History entry on the YMMV page lists factors that have nothing to do with Cage's bit part.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 18th 2021 at 4:06:11 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

I don't think the original work being unpopular/obscure really makes all that much sense. Obviously people aren't going to recognize someone being in a work if they've never seen the work in the first place. Maybe it'd work for a different trope about a work getting a popularity boost after one of the creators becomes famous for something else, but for this I think making the original work unpopular actually harms the trope.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I neglected to mention that I agree that the older work shouldn't have to be obscure, only that a creator who was involved was obscure before a later work made them famous.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 18th 2021 at 4:09:49 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

, Agreed, I do believe.

(The first section below may be superfluous in light of clarification given above. However, I'll leave it in, in part for the sake of transparency, and in part in case someone else does hold or take up the position that it responds to.)

I don't think that it requires that the older work be obscure at all.

More simply, is that the creator in question is overlooked in the older work, then suddenly becomes conspicuous due to the creator finding greater fame.

That overlooking could be because the work itself leads one to not pay too much attention to the actors—maybe it's a poorly-made, schlocky thing. However, it could also—perhaps more likely—be due to the part that the creator plays being a small one, thus leading to them being overlooked.

Without having checked, I would guess that the trope appears on work-pages because those works include creators who might produce this effect.

For example, take the page-image for the trope: While the trope applies to Nicholas Cage, it might be mentioned on the page for Fast Times at Ridgemont High because that's a work in which one might spot a likely-then-overlooked Nicholas Cage.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Dec 18th 2021 at 12:56:42 PM

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I don't get the point of this. It seems extremely similar to the now-defunct Hey Its That Guy and Hey Its That Voice, except it's for works from before actors got popular.

I say just cut it.

Edited by Karxrida on Dec 18th 2021 at 5:18:52 AM

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

Actually, do we have any examples (real ones, not hypotheticals) of things that would be added to the expanded version? That might help clarify the definition

Well, the original poster of the thread linked-to in the first post here gave the following:

Looking quickly over the entries on the Retroactive Recognition sub-pages, here are a few more:

Okay, those are already on the page, but I don't have new examples to hand right now aside from those from the aforementioned thread.

Hmm... Looking at the remnants of those pages, I see that they were merged into Role Association.

But that seems to be about, essentially, connecting a previously-encountered role with a newly-encountered one, and the curious results thereof.

Conversely, this doesn't necessarily have that merging of experiences. Rather, it's about noticing creators where previously they were overlooked.

Or, to put it another way:

Role Association might have an audience-member saying: "Hah, I'm watching Batman now terrorise a family as a ghoul!

While Retroactive Recognition might have an audience-member saying: "Ah, Hannah Montana's Miley Cyrus has a new fan in me! ...Wait, is that her playing a bit-part in Big Fish?!"

There are similarities, but I do think that they're distinct experiences.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Dec 19th 2021 at 1:00:10 PM

My Games & Writing

Here's an example I found on Allen Gregory:

• Rachel Bloom worked as a staff writer on the series a few years before creating and starring in Crazy Ex-Girlfriend.

I think this has more in common with Vindicated by History than Hey Its That Guy and Hey Its That Voice, because it involves audiences' perception of works changing after they're released, just in different ways (once-unknown creators getting noticed after they become famous in the case of Retroactive Recognition, and once-disliked works growing on people in the case of Vindicated by History).

Hey Its That Guy and Hey Its That Voice were completely pointless because they were simply about creators having multiple roles, which is the norm for anyone who isn't a One-Book Author.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 19th 2021 at 1:02:05 PM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

I'm inclined to agree.

And indeed, now that you mention it, and since we're discussing a potential change to the trope-description, it might be worth adding a reference to Vindicated by History to its "see also" section.

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