Duplicate Trope (page action crowner 1/28/19): Some Anvils Need To Be Dropped

That is Anvilicious, which suffered Trope Decay.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Water Blap's sandbox is a neutral supertrope.

So, yes, anvilicious was supposed to be neutral but suffered Trope Decay. We can either fight back against that (which will take a massive amount of time and effort for questionable worth) or accept that we accidentally fell into a Missing Supertrope and just fill in the void.

Creating a neutral Super-Trope seems like the best option since there are too many opinionated entries on Anvilicious and Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped to clean up.

Edited by ADrago on Jan 22nd 2019 at 7:00:58 AM

So it looks like the consensus is to Trope Transplant the current definition of Anvilicious to An Anvil and then make Anvilicious and Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped into redirects to it. I'm not too sure about that last part, but people seem to be liking An Anvil, at least.

No? We were talking about making Anvilicious and Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped into subtropes of The Anvil Of The Story.

Moving Anvillicious to Darth Wiki and Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped to Sugar Wiki as brought up earlier might be good also.

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"

I support the idea of making the missing super trope. And I also still support the Darth Wiki Sugar Wiki idea.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 22nd 2019 at 9:02:51 AM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

A missing supertrope sounds good to me. I'm not sure if Darth/Sugar wiki would actually fix' anything since SANTBD subpages are often just 'this episode teaches x' or go into Space Whale Aesop territory.

The Protomen enhanced my life.

I guess I just think the idea of "an aesop handled poorly and heavily-handed" and especially "a good aesop" is just subjective enough that making it Darth Wiki / Sugar Wiki just kinda makes sense. It would also remove the problem SANTBD has where it just kind of reads like "Tv Tropes supports this aesop" when moving it to Sugar Wiki would show it as a lot more subjective.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I'm okay with that idea.

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I don't think the wiki benefits from having "complain about this aesop" and "gush about this aesop". Mostly because after several years of discussion, the only reason that's been given for the definition is that we haven't cut it yet. The original definition "the work is better because it delivers a heavy-handed aesop" and the suggested "the work delivers a timely moral in a heavy-handed manner" both seem like good ideas, but the Wick Check evidence of "Report Siht likes this aesop" seems redundant to An Aesop.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

The Trope Decay of Anvilicious and SANTBD has been identified as the former being used negatively while the latter is used positively. Part of this problem seems to be their names, as "Anvilicious" is a confusing portmanteau (either delicious, vicious, or malicious could be the combined word) and "need to be dropped" implies a positive usage of an anvil. On Trope Decay, it states that it may be necessary to "completely rewrite" a suffering trope, and it also says that decay may be a sign of Missing Supertrope Syndrome.

Hence a proposed supertrope for the two of them.

I think I got ahead of myself when suggesting the move to Darth Wiki and Sugar Wiki, but I still think it's a good idea. Regardless of whether we move them or not, I believe there needs to be a supertrope to fill in the void.

I mean, these tropes are being used more or less to mean just that.

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So I think a crowner may be beneficial since there's a lot of issues being discussed at once:

1. "Should we make a supertrope for Anvilicious and Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped?" There's a mock-up with the title The Anvil of the Story.
2. "Should we move Anvilicious to Darth Wiki and Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped to Sugar Wiki?" If we move one, then we should move the other, so it makes sense (imo) to keep this as one question.
3. "Should we change the desciption of Anvilicious / Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped to conform better to its Trope Decay?"

I've created a crowner here with the above options, along with the necessary "no change" option.

Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty

I don't particularly like the Darth Wiki/Sugar Wiki option, since it won't stop the primary problem, which is gushing/complaining about the "anvil"'s message, often via Sinkholes.

They're the exact same trope and should just be merged as either An Anvil or Anvilicious.

Edited by RallyBot2 on Jan 23rd 2019 at 3:22:09 PM

What would the precise definition of the supertrope? How would we prevent Trope Decay?

If Anvilicious was moved to Darth Wiki, would it have the Flame Bait icon to stop people from linking to it in the main wiki?

Could the crowner be hooked? Can only mods do that?

Edited by rjd1922 on Jan 24th 2019 at 6:12:54 AM

Keet cleanup

I hollered the post that had the crowner linked at the bottom sentence, but a mod hasn't replied yet.

I say merge them into the proposed supertrope and cut them. Tropes Are Tools.

Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!

These are both massive tropes; just to get started, wick checks would be a good idea.

I agree. Let's see what we're dealing with.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Wick Check: under 1700 wicks, so a square root of less than 50; doing 50 wicks, checking every 33rd wick on the related to tab. Labels: Good aesop in work is misuse, Aesop improves the work is correct use, unclear means there's a lack of context to determine which of the other two apply. Note that improving the work tends to implicitly say "this is a good aesop". This trope is consistently and heavily misused.

1. All Quiet on the Western Front: Good aesop
2. Anthem: unclear
3. Avenged Sevenfold: unclear
4. Bewitched: Aesop improves
5. "Bojack Horseman S 3 E 06 Brrap Brrap Pew Pew": Good aesop
6. Calvin and Hobbes: Good aesop
7. China Blue: Aesop improves
8. Cracked Series: Good aesop
9. DC Abridged Universe Movies: Good aesop
10. Digital Underground: Good aesop
11. Main.Dysfunction Junction: Good aesop
12. Eyeshield21: Good aesop
13. Final Fantasy IX: Good aesop
14. Game of Thrones S6E4: "Book of the Stranger": Good aesop
15. Godzilla, Mothra, King Ghidorah: Giant Monsters All-Out Attack!: Good aesop
16. Gulliver's Travels: Good aesop
17. Sandbox.Hip Hop: commented-out, disregarding
18. Intolerance: Good aesop (also indented as subtrope to Anvilicious)
19. Junji Ito: Good aesop (Sink Hole under "justified")
20. Last Clear Chance: Good aesop (also indented as subtrope to Anvilicious)
21. Literature: (six wicks)
    • Thomas Hardy: Good aesop
    • The Adventures of Pinocchio: Good aesop
    • Uncle Tom's Cabin: Good aesop
    • Jonathan Swift: Good aesop
    • Snuff: Good aesop
    • The Secret Garden: Good aesop
22. Luke Cage (2016): Good aesop
23. Marvel 1602: Good aesop
24. Main.Misaimed Fandom: Aesop improves
25. Mr TARDIS Reviews: Good aesop
26. Main.Neck Snap: Good aesop
27. Main.No Such Thing As Bad Publicity: unclear
28. Main.Overthetop Christmas Decorations: Good aesop
29. Pokémon 4Ever: Aesop improves
30. Queen's Blade: unclear
31. Replay Value Universe: Good aesop (also indented as subtrope to Anvilicious)
32. Sagwa, the Chinese Siamese Cat: unclear
33. Sgt. Frog Abridged: Good aesop
34. Laconic.Some Anvils Need To Be Dropped: laconic page, disregarding (laconic is misuse, but laconics often are)
35. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine S06E13 "Far Beyond the Stars": Good aesop
36. Stop-Loss: Good aesop
37. Tales from the Hood:
    • Good aesop
    • Good aesop
38. The Best Years of Our Lives: Good aesop
39. The Devils: Good aesop (assuming "heavy" is being used as slang, otherwise unclear)
40. The Great Silence: Good aesop
41. The Magician's Nephew: Good aesop
42. The Philanthropist: unclear
43. The Sea Hawk: Good aesop
44. The Twilight Zone S 4 E 106 Hes Alive: Good aesop
45. "Tintin - Tintin in the Land of the Soviets": Good aesop
46. Warp That Aesop.Tropes (Just for fun page)
    • And That's Terrible: Good aesop
    • Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped: Good aesop
47. Unwanted Glasses Plot: Good aesop
48. Waterloo Road: unclear
49. Why Am I Crying?: unclear (three aesops listed)
50. Yuki Yuna is a Hero: unclear

Final tally:

• Good aesop in the work: 42
• Aesop improves the work: 4
• unclear examples: 9
• Total wicks counted: 55

The trope has experienced over 76% misuse for "this is a great moral that people should hear" instead of "the work would be worse if the moral was more subtle".

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

It has been several days since the crowner was created and hollered. Can a mod give some feedback as to the status of the crowner? One option (making a supertrope) is in consensus range (iirc) as it has >10 votes and a 4.5:1 ratio.

Edited by WaterBlap on Jan 27th 2019 at 9:19:55 AM

Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty

The crowner's hooked; sorry for the delay.

The mock-up with the title The Anvil of the Story is still just a rewrite of Anvilicious. Not understanding why people are voting up "make a supertrope" and voting down "merge".

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Why not just merge SANTBD into Anvilicious?

Edited by Lymantria on Jan 28th 2019 at 8:08:37 AM

Join the Five-Man Band cleanup project!

People keep insisting that these two things are different, and the Trope Decay (that they're essentially the same) is so prevalent that (imo) we shouldn't try to undo the damage but rather deal with said damage. As Trope Decay explains, making a supertrope or rewriting the trope(s) are methods of cleaning up the decay. Merging isn't particularly helpful with that, (though merging into a new name might).

An example-less supertrope would help differentiate the two by being an intentionally similar buffer (i.e. an intentionally created supertrope). Meanwhile, merging the two would entail losing something that makes the two of them distinct, which plenty of people have insisted is there.

Making a supertrope is not necessarily mutually exclusive of merging.

Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty

No, they're not, but "redefine Anvilicous to be for aesop done badly" is not part of the supertrope option. Trope Decay has diverged the two tropes, not merged them.

Edited by crazysamaritan on Jan 29th 2019 at 5:36:51 AM

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.