During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Tao Too.
Tao and Kitsurugu
The Draftsman of Doom
Yea to Kiritsugu and Tao.
Kiritsugu and Tao get a from me.
Reminds me I've gotta rewatch Space Dandy to see if he's got another one kicking around in there. No one pops at memory for being composed and smart but they were all funny, so charm's aplenty in it.
Anyways:
- Carole & Tuesday: Tao is an elusive, multi-talented genius with a background in neuroscience who now seeks to create soul-touching music, and becomes Angela Carpenter's songwriter. Putting her through near-torture for training, Tao nevertheless shows shrewd analytical assistance: winning her a singing contest by assessing a judge's mood and later catches her stalker by predicting his behavior. Arrested for prior illegal human experimentation, Tao manages to bail himself out and expose the corrupt CEO who incriminated him, later revealing to Angela they are artificially-created siblings and encourages her to sing again, before escaping.
Isn't Space☆Dandy a Negative Continuity/Widget Series show? I'm generally very wary of any potential keepers in shows like that.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
No, it has an overarching plot and we've had Widget Series keepers before, it's not an instant write-off.
Also minor edit I just put into my Tao entry for the sake of clarity: Schwartz is the head of Intergalactic whom Tao convinced to invest in Angela. Doesn't change anything but it was bugging me how I started name dropping the latter in the next paragraph like I had already introduced him 
Edited by 43110 on May 11th 2020 at 11:08:57 AM
The Unknown Unknown
So saith the thread:
- Fate Zero: Kiritsugu Emiya, the Magus Killer, suffered a childhood of trauma that drove him to end all battle no matter the cost. Under the belief "kill one to save hundreds," Kiritsugu employs any tactic such as bombings to get his target even if it means sacrificing others in the process. Contracted by the Einzbern family to participate in the 4th Holy Grail War, Kiritsugu remains in the background while his wife Irisviel acts in public as Saber's Master, so he can scope out all competition with his assistant Maiya. When assaulted at the Einzbern Castle by Kayneth Archibald, Kiritsugu conditions the magus with traps and gunfire until he fires an Origin Bullet that cripples his Magic Circuits. Later, Kiritsugu takes advantage of Kayneth's pride and love for his wife Sola to eliminate Lancer from the tournament by using a self-geas scroll that he loopholes out of by having Maiya snipe both of them. Even in the thick of battle, Kiritsugu keeps a cold, calculated demeanor as he studies his opponent, be they magus like Kayneth or powerhouses like Kirei Kotomine. When tragedy strikes at the end of the Grail War, Kiritsugu saves a young boy named Shirou and vows to abandon his ruthless ways, hoping to turn his new son into the "Hero of Justice" he couldn't be.
Edited by erazor0707 on May 11th 2020 at 12:56:50 PM
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Cool, I think I'll move Kotomine to Zero as well and make another sub-tree for it.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Grammar rewrite. Current first, than my rewrite (which is already at the Drafts).
- Superman: Red Son: Lex Luthor is a brilliant scientist at S.T.A.R labs seeking to defeat Superman, the 'alien', to prove himself and humanity superior to all others. Having the satellite Sputnik plummet to Metropolis to trick Superman into saving the city, Luthor harvests his genetic material to create a clone he then unleashes for his plans, later assisting the Russian Batman against Superman from the shadows. Later becoming President and saving America from ruin, Luthor continues to plot against Superman, Luthor eventually breaks the would-be benevolent dictator with the phrase "Why don't you just put the whole WORLD in a BOTTLE, Superman?" Which triggers superman to give his life to stop Brainiac and Luthor's victory, allowing Luthor to craft a 'Global United States' with an unparalleled era of peace and prosperity.
- Superman: Red Son: Lex Luthor is a brilliant scientist at S.T.A.R labs seeking to defeat Superman, the "alien", to prove himself and humanity superior to all others. Having the satellite Sputnik plummet to Metropolis to trick Superman into saving the city, Luthor harvests his genetic material to create a clone he then unleashes for his plans, later assisting the Russian Batman against Superman from the shadows. Later becoming President and saving America from ruin and continuing to plot against Superman, Luthor eventually breaks the would-be benevolent dictator with the phrase "Why don't you just put the whole WORLD in a BOTTLE, Superman?" This triggers Superman into giving his life to stop Brainiac, allowing Luthor to craft a "Global United States" with an unparalleled era of peace and prosperity.
I’m cool with the adjustment.
Caesar
Definite 'Yes' to Tao and Kiritsigu, excellent work, all!
Alright, just like I brought up this series on the CM thread, I'd like to discuss Justified here. Unlike when I brought it up on the CM thread, I'm not seeking to add an example, but rather, cut one, unfortunately.
Now, Justified has several solid Magnificent Bastard(s), I'll happily admit that. Mags Bennett is one of the most charming television characters ever, Drew Thompson was pretty much designed to be seen as awesome and I can't disagree, and Loretta McCready, well, she's smart enough and everything, I guess, wasn't a fan of her character but she hits the marks I suppose.
That's 3 solid, no-real-issues Keepers....however, there's one more listed that I don't think ultimately counts:
- Ellstin Limehouse, was the unofficial king of Noble's Holler, the one black community in rural white Harlan. Concerned with keeping his people isolated and safe, Limehouse played Harlan's criminals and law enforcement against one another with seeming impunity, always evading responsibility, and coming out on top. In Season 3 he outmaneuvered Boyd, Robert Quarles, Dickie Bennett and Raylan, setting in motion a plan that saw Quarles killed, Boyd and Dickie imprisoned, and Raylan unable to touch Limehouse. In Season 4, he successfully ripped off Boyd and the Detroit mob both, while at the same time, saving the life of frightened hooker Ellen May and extricating Noble's from the Harlan underworld. Making his final appearance in Season 6, Limehouse again got the better of Boyd, before vanishing from Harlan, one step ahead of the Marshal's Service. No other villain on the show has walked as fine a line between good and evil as Limehouse, and none has ever come close to matching his achievements or his ability to get away with everything.
Mkay, so, immediate issues with Limehouse would be that, unlike all 3 other villains, he never even got an effortpost, which always leaves some wariness possible, but the write-up also just plain misconstrued some details.
However, I don't really wanna talk any of that, and though I have my personal issues with Limehouse's personality (which comes off like kind of a charmless dick a lot) and the fact that he's kind of a Joker example of the writing literally going through hoops to let him stay ahead of everyone, I want to focus on a single, disqualifying feature to Limehouse: he's kind-of sort-of explicitly racist towards white people.
Throughout the show, Limehouse is described as "hating white folks" by others, and Limehouse certainly never gives an impression of otherwise. He's notably way easier on his black henchmen than any white ones he deals with, he makes thinly-veiled comments about how white people are the cause of all troubles, and though he offers sanctuary to white women who are being abused? This is later kind of subverted as it turns out he only does it in exchange for money or information, and he nearly turns away a hooker in Season 4 who is about to be killed precisely because she doesn't have anything to offer him.
This reaches it's peak in Season 4, where the majorly absolutely disqualifying scene for him comes. Limehouse is approached by 3 US Deputy Marshals—the white men Raylan Givens, Tim Gutterson, and the black woman Rachel Brooks—and Limehouse has this exchange with them:
And later....
This exchange is....pretty damn screwed up. Not only does Limehouse casually call the Marshals "crackers", but he follows it up by repeatedly calling Rachel racial slurs like "little sister" and "Aunt Jemima" and basically accusing her of being a race traitor for allying with "the man," and when she threatens to kick his ass for it, he repeatedly makes creepy sexual comments or noises at her.
I do not see Limehouse as magnificent in personality at all. Most of his scheming just amounts to slimily backstabbing everyone he can while outright admitting he has no scruples and just "backs the winning side," many of his interactions with others has him insult them in some personal manner, and his only really impressive feat to me is how he handles his minions. But, even brushing aside all of those issues I have that are more subjective per person? Limehouse is objectively racist towards white people, and even if a sizable portion of the county are white supremacists, this isn't a Magneto situation. Limehouse allies with white people for as much as they can benefit him, while simultaneously trashing the whole race, calling them "crackers" and, as seen with Rachel, insulting her for not being the proper kind of black person.
Limehouse has moments of charm, or kindness, and I'm not debating that. But overall, I don't think he's consistently charming or magnificent enough, and it's all kind of pointless to argue about anyway, because the dude is certifiably racist against whites, and that deserves a chopping from the list, says I. And seeing as we have 3 Keepers who have none of these issues? It's even more of a reason to see him go.
Edited by Ravok on May 11th 2020 at 11:35:07 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
We discussed this one quite thoroughly and between the repeated instances where he drops to... erm, less than magnificent behaviour, the fact the show has three, solid keepers with none of his issues and the fact he was put up without a damn effort post when clearly there were things to be discussed here I'm fine with a cut for Limehouse. No one had really seen the show at the time so we were just going off second hand information said about him anyways, really not a big loss imo.
Yeah, that sounds like a worthwhile cut.
The Draftsman of Doom
Cut Limehouse.
Cut Limehouse.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
@Ravok: But he makes such lovely barbecue. D: Being serious though, seems like he'll have to go.
On my end, might have a candidate or two from Line of Duty. Still in the process of binge-watching the series—and more importantly, still debating if one character in question counts, considering she kept bouncing back and forth between being smug to being more competent than the actual police.
Edited by Tyk5919 on May 11th 2020 at 5:28:56 AM
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Goku Black
cut Limehouse
Woah that sounds bad.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Much appreciated Tyk, we seem to be dry these days here compared to the run we were having a while back 
Cut limehouse.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Remember I still also got shiz from 24 and Strike Back to look into. And since I'm on the subject of Line of Duty, I actually noticed one of the people I'm probably gonna do an EP on was added prematurely until I struck it off. But again, I do wanna get through the last two seasons before I do anything.
No rush.
ok cut Limehouse
Yup to Tao and Kiritsugu.