During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Goku Black
Oh. Ahah. Didn't know that. Whoops.
Thought Polar meant it as serious quote suggestion. Huh.
Edited by miraculous on Sep 26th 2022 at 9:27:46 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Alright after thinking it over here’s my next candidate from Metro Exodus, first appearing in the DLC story "The Two Colonels".
What’s The Work?
"The Two Colonels" is one of two DLC stories (The other being “Sam’s Story”) which takes place in the heavily radiated city of Novosibirsk and follows two timelines. One timeline follows Miller as he tries finding medicine to cure his daughter whose suffering from a severe illness.
The other timeline takes place before Miller and the Aurora crew showed up, focusing on Vyacheslav Khlebnikov whose colonel within the Novosibirsk Metro government’s military unit, OSKOM where he tries maintaining order within his city and reports to his boss, General Anatoly Semyonovich Vinogradov.
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
General Anatoly Semyonovich Vinogradov, also known by his friends as Tolya, was the leader in OSKOM and the person in charge of maintaining order within Novosibirsk whether it’d be sending Khlebnikov and his soldiers out to burn slime and mutant worms so they don’t come near the people in Toyla’s efforts to protect before deciding make pragmatic decisions that may not be popular with the people.
The latter is shown when the community starts running out of the medicine used to resit the high levels of radiation in Novosibirsk called Radioprotector, referred to as green stuff, where Toyla plans to confiscated the green stuff from people with excessive amounts to distributes to everyone a plan he enacts a couple months after New Years Eve having his soldiers confiscate the green stuff from these people to redistribute it equally to everyone throughout the Novosibirsk Metro.
Unfortunately they would ran out of green stuff which caused the people in the Metro to riot against him, OSKOM, and the High Command, which causes Toyla to send his men down there contain the riot before unleashing chlorine gas Metro killing both the rioters and his own soldiers, even killing one of them when he manages to escape, thus revealing his plan to escape the Metro with his son and superiors while killing everyone so that they wouldn’t have to suffer a more horrific death.
However Toyla would learn from one of his subordinates that High Command has aboard the train without Toyla planning to leave Novosibirsk without him or his son, where Toyla responds by ordering his subordinate to launch an RPG blow up the train to kill them all. With the High Command all killed and the train blown up, along with learning that his son was killed during the riots, Toyla decides to take his own life, giving Khlebnikov a final salute before shooting the gun on himself.
Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?
As the General of a military unit, Toyla proves himself to be very intelligent and charismatic having found ways to maintain order and security in a highly radiated city essentially being the true ruler of the Metro, while being friendly with Khlebnikov and the others in OSKOM so that they’ll carry out his demands.
When things get really bad to the point where there’s only enough green stuff for the leadership (including himself), where he manipulates everyone for his own advantage playing both the rioters and his own soldiers against each before gassing them while he, his son, and the leadership would escape undetected, all while maintaining his calm demeanor.
He even had a back up plan when should the High Command betray him, having a soldier blow the train up, and still keeps his composure when learning that his son was kill where he decides to go out on his own terms by saying goodbye to Khlebnikov before shooting himself, thus going out with dignity while being content that he killed the High Command that betrayed him.
What’s The Competition Like?
Among the Big Bads, Toyla might be one of the most cunning and charismatic, with Korbut being the other main villain able to match Toyla in terms of brilliance and charm (still contemplating on whether or not to EP Korbut), while Toyla lack’s Korbut’s Complete Monster credentials while being much more sympathetic by comparison.
The villains of the other DLC, Sam’s Story, include Tom and Klim though have militating factors with Tom despite his charms gets blindly trusts Sam when he decides not to check Sam for any explosions, thus allowing Sam to blow up with sub with Tom still in it, while Klim is a Complete Monster like Korbut while also lacking Korbut’s intelligence by being Ax-Crazy, so yeah compared to the other DLC villains, Toyla clears the competition there.
Is He a bastard? Is He Too Much of a bastard?
Toyla is the Big Bad of The Two Colonels story who basically declares Marshall Law on the citizens living in the Novosibirsk, forcibly confiscating their medicine that they need to survive the radiation, before ordering them to be killed when they decide to riot, eventually unleashing toxic gases that would kill both the rioting citizens and his own soldiers, even shooting one himself when he escapes, while planning for himself and his son to leave Novosibirsk with the High Command, and has the High Command murder when it’s made apparent they’re leaving without him, so yeah I’d say he’s a bastard.
That said Toyla does have well-intentioned qualities that prevents him from being too much of a bastard. Toyla does get along well with his soldiers, namely Novosibirsk whom Toyla gives a months supply of green stuff for him and his son, and even celebrates New Year Eve with them and the citizens and was a genuinely decent if stern ruler for his citizens, only resorts to more pragmatic means of leadership when they ran out of medicine, where he plans to redistribute the confiscated green stuff so everyone can have it, especially the children.
He's never sadistic in his crimes and only decides to betray his comrades when they have officially ran out of medicine considers killing the rioters and his own soldiers with gas Mercy Kills since no one would have to suffer in the long run (whether it’d be by radiation, cold climate, other horrible means) and it’s even implied that he’s betrayal to ensure that his son can live who Toyla loves, even saying that he’s proud of him when talking to Khlebnikov and is sad upon hearing his son’s death, where he decides to commit suicide to join him in the afterlife, while giving Khlebnikov one final goodbye.
Final Verdict?
I’ll leave it to you guys.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
yeah Korbut's decision to unleash a virus on a peaceful station and eventually all of the Metro was the reason why I didn't decide to go through with an EP for Korbut from the get go and needed a second opinion about that, I thank you for your opinion on Korbut Riley and with I officially made my decision.
Edited by G-Editor on Sep 26th 2022 at 9:52:46 AM
Abstaining on Toyla for now but... Korbut does not count here, not even close. He annihilates a peaceful station with a bioweapon and plans to do that across the entire Metro. Korbut is too evil.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Sep 26th 2022 at 9:41:14 AM
Yes to the Shibusawa quote
The wifi here sucks
Here's Tanya (I'm going with that name since I trust Rotten Tomatoes and imdb more than Wikipedia and Hulu's subtitles). She goes at the bottom of the tree.
- Futurama S 7 E 25 Stench And Stenchability: Tanya is a little girl competing with Bender in a local tap-dancing competition. Initially seeming to be a sweet girl with a heart condition, Tanya reveals her true devious nature when she breaks Bender’s leg right before their final competition. When Bender still competes Tanya tricks him into knocking himself out, winning the competition. After Bender saves her life Tanya wins his respect with her evil nature and works with him to mug people using their tap-dancing.
For Sandbox people, she's voiced by Tara Strong
Edited by papyru30 on Sep 26th 2022 at 1:58:37 PM
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Oh I remember Tanya, yes there.
Oh hey does anyone want to vote on my candidate Toyla. So far only Riley has voted
Not sure there, driving the citizens to riot and then gassing both them and his own loyal soldiers so he and the other upper ranks can flee is a serious dick move and done in a way that sounds far more scummy than magnificent.
Toyla wasn't intentionally driving the citizens to riot, they did that own their own (granted Toyla's more pragmatic rule over them during the last few months didn't help matters)
Also Toyla only decide to follow through with his plan when the citizens do decide to riot and when its made clear that all of the "green stuff" is gone and believes that by killing them all (including his soldiers) now, he'll be saving them from a lot of suffering in the future where the outside radiation would just kill them all anyway albeit in a slow and agonizing way.
He also seems to do this make ensure that his son will be safe no matter the outcome, and when he learns that his son has been killed and High Command his leaving without him or his son, Toyla responds by having the train blown up to kill the High Command as payback for their cowardice before shooting his gun on himself in his attempts to go out with dignity.
Admittedly, Toyla is more heinous than the previous two candidates, but we also discuss that we've approved candidates who we're heinous but was able to make the cut (The Dead King, Thanos, and CM Makashima). Still whatever the the verdict for Toyla lands, it is fine, I just hope I've said my argument for Toyla the best I can while not trying to be rude.
Here's a link to a video walkthrough for the Two Colonels DLC. luckily it is only an hour and a half so it should take that long if you want to see it.
Edited by G-Editor on Sep 26th 2022 at 8:21:57 AM
Goku Black
Anyone got a video of this. Or has played this? So we can see how it plays out.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Williams, Sebastian.
Abstain on Tolya.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Going by the response (not rude, don't worry G) I'm not quite sure you grasped the meaning of my post G: I didn't say heinousness itself was a problem, I said the way he goes about it comes across as nasty rather than cunning and cool. If there's more weight to him also being a loving family man, believing he's sparing citizens a worse death, etc. I can maybe see the case but intentional or not, your EP strongly implies his rule is what caused the rioting and it's a pretty brutal cleanup measure. All that said I don't really like having to watch videos just to vote on an EP so I'll leave it to someone else to check the link, I do see the argument, I just feel this bears discussion, at least from the way you phrased the initial post.
One more for the Saints Row franchise, this time from its spin off game Agents of Mayhem.
Following the canon ending of Gat Out of Hell and Satan's defeat, God undoes Zinyak's destruction of Earth, but in the process rewrites the timeline of the series and it's characters. While everything has seemingly gone back to normal, the world is now being threatened by the supervillain agency L.E.G.I.O.N, led by the mysterious "Morningstar", with Dr. Babylon as his front-man.
Discovering the power of Dark Matter, L.E.G.I.O.N goes public in a big way with Devil's Knight, in which they attack multiple cities across the planet with Dark Matter enhanced weaponry, killing millions across the globe. Seemingly nothing can stand in their way other than the newly formed super spy agency, M.A.Y.H.E.M, consisting of multiple playable agents, including returning (albeit, alternate) characters from the old timeline.
And at M.A.Y.H.E.M's helm, is Persephone Brimstone.
Who is Persephone ? What does she do ?
The cool headed and calculating leader of M.A.Y.H.E.M, Persephone Brimstone's backstory is revealed in her character cutscene. A former member of L.E.G.I.O.N, Persephone once the Minister of Gluttony, and self proclaimed "Queen of Thieves" and Happily Married to the Minister of Envy, Lucas Brimstone. On Devil's Night, Persephone was in charge of coordinating the attacks, teleporting L.E.G.I.O.N's armies across the globe "the way a croupier shuffles cards". By her own admission, she got caught up in the power and the carnage.
Following Devil's Night though, Persephone found they were going too far, when she learned of the Morningstar's plans to harvest Dark Matter and rewrite the world in his own image. With Dr. Babylon in charge of research, Persephone took control of the ARK, a technologically advanced battleship, that would become M.A.Y.H.E.M's home base. She'd use the ARK to escape after bombing Babylon's lab, destroying his research and nearly killing the man. Now on the run, Persephone used the ARK's power to evade capture, while enjoying a "vacation" in different environments.
...that was until L.E.G.I.O.N questioned her husband about her treachery, for which he had to prove his loyalty and punish Persephone by destroying her beloved city of Paris. Seeking revenge, Persephone would go on to create M.A.Y.H.E.M getting numerous governments and corporations - such as Ultor - to back her up, as well as using L.E.G.I.O.N's former resources for M.A.Y.H.E.M.
Persephone would also personally conscript many agent for M.A.Y.H.E.M, many of them also having a slight against L.E.G.I.O.N, and especially those who had a knack for fighting off their attacks, all with the goal of bringing L.E.G.I.O.N down. These include returning Saints Row characters, Peirce Washington, Johnny Gat, Oleg Kirrlov and Kinzie Kensington.
The main game focuses of M.A.Y.H.E.M's operations in Seoul, South Korea, and their disruptions of Dr. Babylon's operations. For the most part, Persephone takes a back seat, but sometimes steps in as Mission Control here and there. Throughout, Babylon's operations are dismantled, prompting the mad doctor to launch an attack on the ARK, with Perseophone keeping a cool head on her shoulders while commanding the ensuing battle. Following Babylon's final defeat, Persephone calls it a job well done, and has M.A.Y.H.E.M pull out of Seoul, while leaving Babylon to die.
The game ends on And the Adventure Continues...except there really wasn't a sequel, and unless the new game has plans to revisit Mayhem's story, that's about it.
Is she Magnificent ?
She's a charming, intimidating, and calculating tactician. She has it going for her in being a brilliant but ruthless leader of a super spy agency. Throughout the game, Persephone has a no nonsense attitude and a cool head on her shoulders, even when the going gets tough.
The only time she really loses her cool is in a flashback of when her husband destroyed Paris, and that only went as far as her angrily throwing her ring to the ground. She also makes a surprisingly crass joke, about shoving the Dark Matter crystal up Babylon's ass when they're taunting each other during the latter's attack on the ARK.
At most she expresses annoyance at the more animated antics of some of her Agents (Hollywood), though her interactions with the mysterious Scheherazade border on flirtatious, admitting that Scheherazade charmed her by being more mysterious than she is. She also claims the deranged Evil Genius, Ariadne could be a genuine challenge for M.A.Y.H.E.M because of how unpredictable she is, but in the Worthy Opponent way.
Is She a Bitch, or too much of one ?
She was an active participant in Devil's Night, overseeing and directing numerous attacks across the globe - an event that got millions killed. She might be right up there with the original timelines Boss in their ruthlessness. By her own admission, she was starting to enjoy it.
Where she drew the line was learning the Morningstar's true plans. She was cool with it when she thought they were creating a new world order, but the apocalypse is where she draws the line. She also genuinely loved her husband, at least before he went and destroyed Paris.
This ruthlessness is carried over after her Heel–Face Turn, prioritizing the mission over civilian safety and collateral damage - unlike her right hand, Friday, who's more of a "people person". When Friday creates a recruitment video for M.A.Y.H.E.M, Persephone shuts down her attempts to make her out to be more heroic than she actually is; Persephone goes on to state that the agents have their own reasons for fighting M.A.Y.H.E.M and as far as they're concerned, this is a fight between "Bad vs worse".
Edited by Beast on Sep 26th 2022 at 6:29:39 AM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Ignore for now
Persephone
Abstain for Toyla
Edited by WetFlannels on Sep 26th 2022 at 2:14:57 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
EP time (I sort of forgot to tell you guys what the work is lmao and apologies for the double post)
What is the work?
How to Train Your Dragon is a 12 book long spanning series set in the Viking Archepeligo showcasing the adventures of Hiccup III and his allies in a bunch of adventures, also starring dragons! While the early books were mostly self contained, albiet with a few Continuity Nod here and there, book 8 triggers the final major arc in which humans and dragons go to war. And who is the leader of the dragon side of things? Our candidate for today and a series Knight of Cerebus, the dragon Furious
Who is Furious and what has he done?
Alright this is just to explain the plot so you can get a general idea behind Furious' backstroy and motives.
Before the story begins, Furious was a stray sea dragon that had been raised along side his "brother" Hiccup II, our hero's ancestor, by two other dragons who had found them in the wild. Growing up, Hiccup II is later discovered by his father, Grimbeard the Ghastly... the same father who discarded him to the wilds. After a few years of reconciling with his father, Hiccup II tries to initiate peace between humans and dragons (Grimbeard was the king of the Wildewest and had mass enslaved dragons.) with his Furious alongside him. Unfortunately Hiccup's brother Thugheart manipulated Grimbeard into thinking he was trying to seize power with the dragons, resulting in Grimbeard murdering Hiccup II in front of Furious. Despite Furious' rage, Hiccup II pleads with him not to seek revenge. And how do the humans repay him? Chain Furious in the pits of a forest for 100 years. From here Furious' hatred of humans builds up.
Now in Book 8 when Hiccup and his allies are stuck in Beserk forest, Hiccup's Arch-Enemy Alvin The Treacherous (see here for that guy's rap sheet) has him flung into the pit to feed Hiccup to Furious (called the Beast of the Forest by the vikings.) Despite almost eating Hiccup alive, Furious ends up listening to him when he realises that Hiccup is the descendent of the one human he cared about. Hiccup aids furious with escaping from his prison, making him promise on his heart to not take revenge on the humans. When free, Furious sort of goes back on that promise with retorting that his heart was torn long ago, warning Hiccup that he'll give him one year of peace before returning with a dragon armada to wipe out humans as revenge for the treatment dragon's suffered, also noting that he has no true gripe with Hiccup but he's aware that Hiccup will somehow cause the end of dragons.
Book 9
From there, Furious rallies up a force of limitless numbers consisting of a multitude of dragons, even the ones that are known to be The Dreaded amongst each other and has them plan coordinated attacks on the vikings. When Alvin becomes viable for king, he proudly says how he won't strive for peace and seeks to go to war against them, not long before Furious storms the Flashburn school and fully initiating the second Human Vs Dragon war.
Book 10
With Hiccup seeking the Dragon Jewel to try and stop the war, Furious tasks another dragon called the Deadly Shadow to kill Hiccup since he's aware Hiccup will make the dragon race disappear. Furious also has multiple strikes on Alvin's soldiers and repeatedly attacks Prison Darkheart to hinder the human's process with searching for the Dragon Jewel. When the Deadly Shadow performs a Heel–Face Turn due to discovering the son of the woman they cared for (Hiccup's best friend Fishlegs,) Furious vows to hunt down Hiccup himself.
Book 11
From there Hiccup has a very narrow encounter with Furious, only evading him by mere seconds, with Furious incinerating the landscape to attempt to kill Hiccup in the flames. Despite Hiccup evading him yet again, Furious manages to secretly converse with one of Hiccup's allies, a dragon called the Wodensfang and strikes a deal with him, saying he'll leave the heroes alone for now in return for the jewel so he can stop the humans from using its power.
Book 12
Due to a lot of plot stuff with Alvin, Excellinor and a Heroic Sacrifice, everyone thinks Hiccup's dead... apart from Furious who knew otherwise so he sends a group of sand dwelling dragons to dispose of him before he reaches Tomorrow. Furious later dispatches his second in command Luna and an armada of dragons to hunt Hiccup down, only failing because Hiccup pretended that the Dragon Guardians of Tomorrow were there. Much later, Hiccup rides out to meet Furious and discusses peace being possible... but unfortunately Alvin and Excellinor interfere by robbing the jewel from Hiccup in an act of treachery initiating a bloody conflict between humans and dragons. Because of Alvin breaking the peace, this results in his demise by being dragged off to the atmosphere and being obliterated.
Seeing the carnage and Hiccup with the jewel, Furious calls for a ceasefire and tries finally initiates peace with Hiccup before Excellinor, in a mad rage of her son dying (not redeeming, he was her key to power) tries to ram Hiccup with a poisoned blade in which Furious then gets in the way, taking the blow and killing the witch by throwing her down a pit. Knowing he's dying, Furious and Hiccup realise the true way for peace because despite what they would try, someone in the future would always try to tip the balance with one side being above the other. Furious has Luna have all the dragons to fly away and disappear, while he himself goes to sea to live out his remaining days in peace.
Is he magnificent?
Furious manages to orchestrate a second dragon rebellion consisting of a variety of dragons, even the ones that are known to be problematic, in the unified armada to aid him. He's a pure No-Nonsense Nemesis as when he sees a chance to strike his enemies he goes for it with Hiccup only barely evading him. He's also manage to keep up being a threat towards Alvin and Excellinor who are two of the smartest characters in the series along with Hiccup. What might hurt him is that he can't really do intricate plans but in his defence, he is a dragon the size of a mountain. What helps me the most is his final moments when he achieves peace with Hiccup and is able to create the best outcome for both human and dragon without the risk of either of them getting hurt again.
Is he a bastard?
Human genocide. After the trauma he went through due to humans killing the one human and with humans like Alvin about I'm not surprised the poor bastard snapped. Unlike his predecessor Merciless though, Furious is shown to genuinely care about dragon kind and is trying to allow them to be free without human interference. Also since he foresaw Hiccup would cause the disappearance of dragons (which is technically true) it gives him a pure motivator.
Final Verdict?
Your call
Also I'm aware Crossovers a held under much tighter scrutiny but do you guys think I could make a case for Alvin? He's shown to be a very charismatic and highly intelligent villain. Only drawback? His actions from book 9 onwards in when the second Human vs Dragon war happens because that's when things go really nasty. Excellinor I don't I could make a case for because of her rabid Villainous Breakdown before her end.
Edited by WetFlannels on Sep 26th 2022 at 2:20:15 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
The wifi here sucks
Yes to Persephone
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'm still reading the EP but looking at Alvin's CM write up I would be a hard no to him. Mass enslavement of people, including children to send to their deaths plus him apparently executing a bunch of them in anger is way too bad for this trope and that's aside from trying to kill every Dragon.
Edited by papyru30 on Sep 26th 2022 at 7:34:27 AM
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
to Persophone
Okay I think I get what 43110 is going at and rewatching the walkthrough videos so let me try explaining Toyla's more humane qualities better and in more detailed (there's also a extend video walkthrough of Two Colonels for those who want to see it):
- In the beginning of "Two Colonels" Toyla was genuinely fair (if a little stern) leader in OSKOM and during that time was the only one in High Command who actually cared about the people Novosibirsk, where he sends his soldiers to burn slime, giant mutant worms, and other creatures so that they don't reach the people while making sure everyone gets their medicine
- When he first appears he genuinely regards Khlebnikov as a friend where they share drinks together where Toyla comments on how proud he is at his son who just became Captain and gives Khlebnikov a month supply worth of green stuff for Khlebnikov because he can relate to Khlebnikov since like Toyla, Khlebnikov also has a son he wants to look out for, before Toyla later appears in the New Years Eve party celebrating the holiday with the citizen, with Toyla even counting down to where the New Year starts before a blackout occurs.
- Its not until a few months later when the OSKOM runs out of the "green stuff" which is when Toyla decides to become more pragmatic with his leadership where he confiscate the medicine from the people with excessive amounts so that he can redistribute them so that everyone gets the medicine, with Toyla remarking that he plans to give more to children since they need it more, and Toyla was actually thinking about evacuating everyone out of Novosibirsk so that they can go to somewhere to live having tasked with soldiers to finding maps about places with less or not radiation.
- Finally, Toyla didn't come up with the plan to kill the rioters and soldiers with gas on his own. It was a plan Toyla and the High Command came up with together, and it was a decision Toyla made very reluctantly but in the end decided to proceeded, and only unleashed the chlorine gas when it was made clear that the citizens started to riot all over the Metro and that they officially ran out of green stuff, where Toyla genuinely believes that he's sparing them all from a worse death (i.e. dying slowly and agonizingly from radiation poisoning, getting killed by mutants, etc.).
- While Toyla did want to leave Novosibirsk, his first priority was for his son to survive and leave on the train with Toyla wanting to come to protect his son make sure he's safe and when Toyla learns of his son's death and the High Command's betrayal, Toyla is genuinely distraught (even if he tries to maintain his composure) and no longer cared about escaping where Toyla instead has the train containing High Command blown up as revenge for their betrayal before shooting himself (possibly to reunite with his son in the after) and gives Khlebnikov a final goodbye.
I hope that I've explained things better with this post.
Edited by G-Editor on Sep 26th 2022 at 10:19:19 AM
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
On Toyla. While he ticks a lot of the necessary boxes, I can't ignore how many deaths were indirectly caused through his actions, when his goal was to prevent said deaths. In short, he doesn't seem successful enough.
Persephone and Furious
New EP after people have time to respond to the latest ones.
Edited by ANonagon9 on Sep 26th 2022 at 9:58:28 AM
Gotta love Jaws!
to Tanya, Williams, Sebastian, Persephone and Furious.
to Anatoly.
Hey, I just wanted to say that it's now my birthday! (Well, by my timezone at least)
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Happy birthday!
Hmm gonna switch to a tentative there G for now
Got an opinion for Furious G?
Edited by WetFlannels on Sep 26th 2022 at 3:13:03 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
I happy birthday man. I did post more about Toyla above of you want to read it.
@Wet: Oh sorry I posted my point the same time you EP’d your candidate. to Furious
Edited by G-Editor on Sep 26th 2022 at 10:20:17 AM
Yes to Persephone and Furious (likewise definite no to Alvin though, Thouzer is kept off the list thanks to his slaving of children and he's got charm, audacity and even redeeming qualities; and with G's additional notes I'll flip to a tentative yes on Tolya, thank you for elaborating. A very happy birthday to interests as well!
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Alright thanks for letting me know, saves me the hassle of doing a lengthy EP for him.
Yes to the Shibusawa quote.
Uh... that second one is definitely Vergil from Devil May Cry, I think it's meant as a joke?