During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Simeon.
Moriarity.
Got an effort post for the thread.
What's the Work
Animator vs. Animation is a You Tube series made by Alan Becker. Almost every single computer program is alive and sapient, and are even able of directly interacting with other programs, and outright interacting with the humans using them. We already have one character, The Animator himself, as an MB. But I think there's an animation that's worth giving a look as well.
Who is he? What does he do?
The Chosen One is the second creation of The Animator, and is easily one of his most dangerous adversaries. Created to give a challenging fight, The Chosen One wastes no time in escaping the program and escaping to the main computer. The Chosen One wrecks havock on the computer and kills several programs that try to stop him. However, through both his sheer power, and managing to take advantage of abilities of the enemy programs against each other (using Paint to create barrier for himself, using the chatbox of Instant Messenger to kill it before the Animator can get advice from a friend for how to beat The Chosen One) he kills nearly all of them. However, the Animator activates an anti-virus program to enslave The Chosen One, and having him be an ad blocker.
Several years later, The Chosen One finds a website that offers liberty for stick figures, and immediately clicks on it whil The Animator is scrolling through the internet. The Chosen One almost frees himself, but Animator has him use his pop-up blocking to destory it. Enraged, The Chosen One attacks again, and when The Animator right clicks and is about to click Close Pop-Up Blocker, but The Chosen One grabs the mouse and forces it to click on Release Pop-Up Blocker. Free again, The Chosen One wrecks havok amongst the programs. The Animator creates a counterpart, The Dark Lord, who's roughly equal to The Chosen One in combat prowress. However, The Chosen One manages to trap The Dark Lord in the minesweeper app to take him out of the fight. Once again defeating all the programs that attack him, The Chosen One throws FireFox into a mine to set off explosions, defeating The Dark Lord and killing the remaining programs.
The Dark Lord asks for mercy, and The Chosen One makes a deal with him. Pointing out how The Animator has been busy playing Solitaire, not even noticing how his creation is about to die, he convinces The Dark Lord to team up with him to destroy The Animator's computer. So they do just that, giving the Animator a literal Villainous BSoD, The Chosen One finding an escape to the internet as a whole so that he and The Dark Lord escape before the explosion engulfs them. Together, they wreck havok amonst several apps and websites, but The Chosen One starts to grow increasingly uncomfortable with it over the years, especially with The Dark Lord becoming more and more brutal about it. Eventually, when The Dark Lord reveals his intentions to infect countless computers with deathly program killing viruses, The Chosen One decides to stop him, saving The Animator's computer from one ViraBot, and making peace with The Animator so that the two of them, The Second Coming, and the Fighting Stick Figures can take down The Dark Lord.
How do his actions show that he's a Magnificent Bastard?
The Animator might have intiated it by creating him just to kill him, but The Chosen One is no helpless victim. He's more than fine with attacking unprovoked as his rampages with The Dark Lord shown, and he kills a ton of programs who were simply trying to protect the Computer. But he has boundaries. He grew increasingly uncomfortable with attacking innocent programs, and was horrified with The Dark Lord's vira-bot plan. The Chosen One enjoys destruction, but he's not fond of killing those who don't fight back.
And he's certainly shown intellect, from taking the biggest threat to him out (The Dark Lord) of the fight by trapping him in an app, using Computer Programs against each other, freeing himself from his enslavement, and escaping through the internet so that he and Dark Lord can survive the computer destroying explosion.
Final Thoughts?
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Gotta love Jaws!
to Kaizo.
Haven't we discussed the Chosen One before? I remain a weak for reasons I've detailed but I'm pretty sure we discussed him.
Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on Aug 29th 2021 at 2:30:31 AM
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
When I searched, I only saw discussion about The Animator. shrugs
Moriarty, Batman, Kaizo, and the Chosen One.
RIP Ed Asner. Has he ever played any MBs?
Yes to Kaizo! Great first EP!
I'll abstain on The Chosen One for now because I believe he was downvoted before for a very good reason.
I said this in the CM but RIP Ed Asner. Why do I get the feeling we're going to have another Celebrity Purge like the one that claimed Alan Rickman?
Edit: Sorry... I was just concerned is all. Didn't mean to say this.
Edited by Klavice on Aug 29th 2021 at 1:53:06 AM
How about you don't, Klavice? What the hell, 'celebrity purge?'
I think he's talking about 2016 and it's rash of celebrity deaths, but I agree that's quite the jump.
I do recall the chosen one was downvoted for some reason, but I can't remember what. Searching only brings up Alan Becker. Perhaps I'm remembering wrong. I'll abstain for now, but if I am remembering wrong, I'd be an with this EP.
Edited by jjjj2 on Aug 29th 2021 at 3:12:01 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Yeah Klavice, that's kind of in bad taste…
God rest Ed Asner indeed. Always remember him as Carl Fredricksen among other things.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I'd say it's justified.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Aug 29th 2021 at 12:16:28 PM
"The Juice is Loose."
Yes to Kaizo and the Chosen One.
Any opininions on my question here?
The Moron
After a bit of searching, I did manage to find the previous EP, and it seems that he was previously voted down because he's not much smarter than the others and has a huge advantage thanks to his power set. He seems to be less intelligent than Orange, who has less powers, and that messing with the Animator backfires on him hard. It looks like they were less voted down and more just abstained on until discussion fizzled out. Awesome, what say you to these points?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I can go either way on that, tbh
The messing with the Animator's computer backfiring on him in the second video really isn't much of a red flag considering how he more than makes up for it by III. We have plenty of MBs who made mistakes and bounced back from them later.
As for Orange, eh, I'm not sure if "smarter" is the right word. Orange is shown as using whatever's at hand more than The Chosen One on account of not having any powers, but The Chosen one has frequently shown to have a strategic mind which he uses to adapt to almost any situation, whereas Orange, who certainly can think on his feet, almost always needs saving from someone in the long run (or in the case of his debut appearance, The Animator sparing him) rather than his own mind getting him out of the situation.
Edited by Awesomekid42 on Aug 29th 2021 at 3:57:45 PM
Caesar
'Yes' to Kaizo and the Chosen One
I'll have another KND baddie in the near-ish future coming, but let me go ahead and knock out pending that aren't KND.
Holmes' write-up is long, but honestly, I think he deserves it. He's a fuckin' classic character and I'm already having to generalize a character who was in decades of content and dozens upon dozens of stories. If we'd prefer I condense I will definitely accommodate, but I personally advocate for this longer one.
- Sherlock Holmes:
- Sherlock Holmes himself is the brilliant, aloof consulting detective who uses his mastery of deduction to manipulate, plot and outwit his way through London's worst criminal minds. Having honed his analytical skills since childhood in which he solved mysterious happenings even then, Holmes spends his adulthood assisting the Scotland Yard in taking down the most devious of criminals just to alleviate his own boredom with the challenge, Holmes rarely finding anyone to be a match for his prowess. Able to figure out entire cases from mere moments of time on a scene or witness statements, Holmes often devises ingenious ploys that involve masterfully disguising himself, turning criminals on each other, or just using the most simple of tactics to entrap his prey. Always willing to admit when he's met his match in the likes of Irene Adler or James Moriarty and never swearing his goals to the law itself, Holmes will let killers go free, use innocents as bait, and commit other various felony offenses if it suits his personal moral code. In one of his most innovative ploys, Holmes staged his own death for years, using it to dismantle an entire global criminal organization before returning to his old life and friend John Watson to fight evil for years to come. Defining a generation of detective stories and considered by many to be the greatest crime solver in fiction, Sherlock Holmes is a classic literary character defined by intelligence, charisma and cold genius.
- Professor James Moriarty is Sherlock Holmes' Evil Counterpart, a devilishly ingenious criminal who uses his smarts in the name of evil. Running a worldwide criminal organization for decades while maintaining his status as a beloved member of the scientific community, Moriarty caught Holmes' attention when he orchestrated the murder of a man Holmes had spent weeks trying to find and protect, proving his cunning to the detective. Though Holmes spent months trying to take him down, Moriarty evaded Holmes at every turn, first trying to convince the detective to stand down before staging various accidents that nearly claim Holmes' life. Even when his organization is dismantled, Moriarty escapes capture and tracks down Holmes, taking him on in a final duel atop Reichenbach Falls that served as the closest brush with death Holmes ever encountered. Always polite and accommodating to even his foes, Moriarty earned his legacy status as the Arch-Enemy of Sherlock Holmes.
- The Night Comes for Us: The woman known only as "the Operator" is a mysterious hired gun assigned to eliminate the Six Seas. Introduced using darkness and a laser sight to kill off terrified goons, the Operator further proves her insane skills when she duels Ito, quickly marking her as the only person capable of defeating him in single combat. Twisting Ito to her goals and sending her after the Six Seas agent Arian, the Operator protects the young girl Reina from assassins Alma and Elena, using the womens' own weapons against them and taking them both on at once. The Operator ultimately outwits and kills Alma, Elena and an entire armed squad in their employ, saving Reina and returning her to Ito once Arian is dead, the Operator moving on to continue her mission to dismantle the Six Seas.
- Moriarty Lives: Professor James Moriarty is an affably charming Diabolical Mastermind who earns his status as Sherlock Holmes' nemesis. Surviving his battle with Holmes at Reichenbach Falls, Moriarty quickly grows distasteful of Baron von Hohenheim's cruel tyranny over a small town and begins scheming to take him down. Disgusted by von Hohenheim's murder of innocents and vile experiments, Moriarty takes young boy Udo as an apprentice and uses disguises and manipulations to infiltrate von Hohenheim's operations and learn of his vast fortune. Concocting a brilliant scheme to rob Hohenheim blind, Moriarty saves his abused wife and Udo from the madman, tricks him into engineering his own demise, and gets away with splitting up the treasure among his partners while intending to revitalize his criminal empire.
Edited by Ravok on Aug 29th 2021 at 1:19:59 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
The wifi here sucks
Yes to Kaizo abstain on the Chosen one, echoing others that that was in bad taste Klavice.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
I'm sorry... I meant I was worried about several more famous people dying and as I said before, my grandpa is dying and barely hanging in there. I'm not exactly what you'd call sane right now. I apologize.
The Draftsman of Doom
Gotta love Jaws!
It's fine, I think this was just a case of very poor wording that tends to happen sometimes rather than outright disrespect. Sorry about your grandpa man.
Reaffirming a to the Chosen One.
to the Chosen one
With Awesome's rebuttals I'll give a wholehearted to the chosen one. Even though I was currently abstaining looking at my previous vote I gave an . Things come full circle.
to The Imakandi, Jensen Ames, Borden Twins, Lash, Root, the Protagonist, Mari, Neil, Specimen Six, Russel Stevens, Xau-tak, Sherlock Holmes, Captain Jang, Simeon Ayp, Professor James Moriarty, Earth Two Batman and Kaizo.
RIP Ed Asner.
I'm good saying yeah for the Chosen One with the intelligence stuff cleared up. Thanks for re-evaluating that one Awesome.
In that case, yes to The Chosen One!
Mari (Eva).
Ravok, has anyone made an argument against Stickybeard yet? I saw a lot of thumbs up's for him. He'd be a good example of a comedic Magnificent Bastard (Grunkle Stan is still my go-to example). Also Grandfather definitely counts.
Edited by Idisagree on Aug 29th 2021 at 3:08:51 AM
Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 29th 2021 at 1:07:12 PM
Watch me destroying my country