During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
For the record, I don't feel Anodites are The Scrappy considering the AF retcon of magic was Broken Base to begin with. Whoever added that was probably a hater of AF era.
Alright then, I will vote ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
on Verdona.
Btw something I'd like to clarify: do we have any interpretations of Odysseus that still keep. I'm inclined to agree with Silver on any note about him "taking women" is pretty clear in what the narrative means to describe but I forget if there were some tellings that omitted the single problematic line?
The Odyssey has been edited, re-edited, and altered so many times over centuries that there literally has to be.
Okay, I've got a mountain of potential EPs I'm sitting on again soooo let me get started from one from the Disney Animated Canon that snuck under our radar. Thanks to Ravok for pointing this guy out.
A little bit back Rav put up John Silver from Treasure Planet, and he deserves the spot. But there might actually be a decent case for the film's Predecessor Villain, too—Nathaniel Flint.
Who is Nathaniel Flint? What has he done?
Nathaniel Flint is the most legendary and feared Space Pirate within the universe of Treasure Planet, the alien whose trove is sought after by other greedy pirates who came after his age. We see Flint in his usual element in the prologue, when young Jim Hawkins reads a storybook chronicling Flint, utilizing a highly advanced portal to plunder wherever he wished in the universe.
Flint's endeavors were very real, and his treasure lives up to every bit of the legend. Flint filled up a planetary core filled with his misbegotten riches (the Treasure Planet of the title), a literal "loot of a thousand worlds," a stash that makes Smaug's trove look like pebbles by comparison. When Silver—who has dedicated his entire life to the pursuit of Flint's treasure—and Jim finally discover Treasure Planet, they learn that Flint was so greedy not even death would prevent him from parting with his treasure; his skeleton is literally sitting atop a throne of his own treasure. And he wanted it to stay his even post-mortem.
Crazy-Prepared Flint set up a booby trap to blow up all of Treasure Planet so whomever might somehow discover his treasure wouldn't be able to abscond with the riches, and took the extra step by taking out the memory chip of his robot BEN as well, juuuuust in case. The measures Flint took to keep the treasure his means it stays his; the booby trap kills most of Silver's remaining pirates, and Silver's Life-or-Limb Decision means he can't escape with anything more than a few handfuls of gold instead of the ship's worth he was hoping for.
"It was just a lifelong obsession, Jim. I'll get over it!"
Is he too much of a bastard?
He was a pirate. He pillaged ships, put civilians in danger, we see a few people dying in the big spacefight in the intro, the like—and the treasure he's accrued mildly hints at a similarly huge body count. That said, it's still PG stuff at worst. His villainy isn't as on the nose as, say, Scroop, who despite not even having a tenth of Flint's body count was still a murderously petty Hate Sink.
Pass.
What's his competition like?
A little hard to gauge given Flint's a Posthumous Character throughout the film, but let's see—Flint was so Crazy-Prepared that not even qualified Magnificent Bastard John Silver leaves with anything more than "a few doubloons" of Flint's treasure. Silver's entire lifelong quest has been to get to Flint's trove, and when we finally see Flint's trove it proves that Flint lived up to his title as a legend. His bounty is truly immense, and he got away with all of it, to his dying breath and long, long past it.
Pretty damn good rapsheet for a Posthumous Character. My hesitation comes with the fact that Flint in the flesh is not onscreen long. He appears in the flashback where we see him mounting one of many successful raids on a merchant ship, taking fistfuls of treasure with an Evil Laugh and leaving. His skeleton is onscreen longer than he is. So personality-wise, it's a bit hard to tell if he's that charismatic. What we can measure is the sheer impressive volume of his feats and the fact his rapsheet clearly evinces the dude was a genius: he was not only the most accomplished pirate to ever live, he went to ever measure to posthumously thwart those who'd take his treasure. And he got away with that, too.
Again—not bad for a skeleton.
Conclusion?
I'm gonna say...possible keeper. I'll leave it up to you if what he's accomplished in life and death is enough to make up for his shortcomings in characterization.
Edited by Scraggle on Jul 21st 2021 at 11:22:05 AM
Hope it's not too late for too many people. First of its kind for me I guess—two different characters in one EP getting written up separately (Strannix and Krill for CM don't count since I'd originally intended for them to be a duo):
What is the work?
The Terminator is of course the 1984 Sci-Fi classic about a cyborg from the future sent to kill a completely ordinary young woman because it turns out, her son is gonna be the one to save 2035 from a dystopia wrought by an evil supercomputer. Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines is the second sequel to that movie that came out in 2003 and involved her grown son being targeted for what would be the second time while he's doubting said future and believes his existence now is pointless. Each one has a cyborg at the center with the former defining a genre (much like his immediate successor in 1991 also did) and the latter being pretty cool too.
Who are they and what have they done?
First off is The Terminator—T-101– sent back to LA 1984 by the sadistic and evil Skynet to murder waitress Sarah Conner because John Conner will eventually be a thing—a great pain in Skynet's ass more specifically. Murdering gang members for clothes and then taking out a gun shop clerk while picking out very specific weapons ("You can't do that" "Wrong"), the Terminator uses a phone book to track different women named "Sarah Conner?" and without prejudice, shoot them dead. He eventually tracks the Sarah he's looking for to a club after killing her roommate Ginger and Ginger's boyfriend and pursues when Kyle Reese—future soldier sent to protect Sarah—interferes.
Reese and Sarah manage to later barely escape the police station when the Terminator mows the desk cop down with his car for giving him the runaround ("I'll be back") and then with very little opposition, shoots and kills at least a dozen cops in the process of trying to get to Sarah and later surgically removes a damaged eye from himself in order to better perform and hides it with sunglasses. While using Sarah's phone book (and shines on a wise guy with "Fuck you asshole"), The Terminator tracks down Sarah's mother—likely killing her—and imitating her over the phone, tricks Sarah into revealing which hotel she's staying at. Pursuing on a motorcycle as Reese and Sarah—who before this, conceived John together—attempt to escape, the Terminator manages to wound Reese before being forced to crash and being hit by a truck.
Then pursuing in said truck that he's commandeered, the Terminator then re-emerges as a pure exoskeleton to again continue pursuit in a factory after Reese blows the truck with a pipe bomb. Even when Reese then blows the Terminator up with another pipe bomb—and sacrifices himself in the process—the Terminator survives most in text and pursues a wounded Sarah through a metal press machine. Even with his blown off arm and CPU chip later on causing trouble, cue "You're terminated fucker" as Sarah activates the machine, crushing the Terminator into scrap.
Now we come to The Terminator—also a T-101–who successfully killed John in the future by playing on his childhood grief toward "Uncle Bob"—as Tropers here have been calling him—to get close enough before then being captured after the killing, reprogrammed and sent back to the early 2000s by the John of the future's widow Kate Brewster. After getting clothes and a car, the Terminator seeks to track down Kate—who just recently happened to catch junior high school sweetheart John trying to rob her—knowing that the T-X (Terminatrix) is there to kill her after having to kill John's Lts because he lives off the grid. Hitting the T-X with a car and locking Kate in the back of a truck, the Terminator then saves John and had him take off with Kate still trapped.
Commandeering a police motorcycle first and then a fire truck, the Terminator impedes and forces the work truck T-X is pursuing in to crash and joins up with John and Kate—the latter still believing she's a prisoner. The Terminator also flat-out tells John he's not the same one he knew before when asked, throws out an unstable fuel cell from damage caused to him by the T-X that violently explodes and retrieving weapons from Sarah's coffin that she had placed there, the Terminator holds off police while using psychology on John to threaten him and instill rage in him rather than hopelessness ("Anger is more useful than despair"). At first unwilling to put them in danger to save Kate's father and willing to call John's bluff at his Driven to Suicide threat, the Terminator only relents and agrees to help when Kate personally asks him to help save her father—since he has to listen to her.
Unable to save Kate's father and corrupted by T-X to kill John, the Terminator overcomes it by shutting himself down and then rebooting. Blocking the door at the base with his full body to let John and Kate through, the Terminator then uses another unstable fuel cell ("You are terminated") to vaporize both himself and T-X as John and Kate discover that they've been led to a shelter and not to the core of Skynet to destroy him and prevent Judgment Day. As the Terminator knew both Skynet's creation and extermination of humanity were unavoidable, he guaranteed John and Kate survived so that they could accept their roles as the leaders of the resistance and prepare humanity for the fight for the future.
Are they magnificent?
As displayed, both Terminators show extremely extensive fighting and mental processing skills and each do whatever they can in strong favor of their missions despite each being on a different side. While the first obviously fails in killing Sarah despite coming very, very close to the point that it's still highly recognized as a high standard, the third knows that he has to keep letting John and Kate think they can stop Skynet so he can make sure they're safe and the future of the resistance is preserved and absolutely succeeds. Both have no problem at all learning new skills either.
Bastard? Too much?
While the first Terminator has an extensively high and egregiously unfiltered body count for the most part that's all in favor of his mission and truly not personal despite the quantity, the third Terminator also has a much more impressive mentally calculating mind than anticipated and he uses that for the appropriate occasions when just physically doing something won't be enough. As stated before with "Uncle Bob" and T-1000, the Terminators—much like they are here—are clearly very capable of both charm and efficiency without going too far. While these two do have a bit more of a serious business motif, they're each clearly capable of having a sense of humor in it all nonetheless.
Verdict?
Respectively, a very clear, definite and a pretty clear and happy as well.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jul 21st 2021 at 10:27:32 AM
RIP Toriyama
'Yes' to the classic Terminator and his follow-up, and a big one to Flint. I too think that him being a Posthumous Character could have impacted his magnificence, but honestly? We see more than enough evidence of all the brilliant, clever shit he does, his presence is felt through the whole flick, and the fact that he pulls off The Bad Guy Wins both in life—getting away with his "loot of a thousand worlds" and dying surrounded by his troves—and then after he's dead are way too impressive for me to overlook on the basis of personality being a bit lacking.
Edited by Ravok on Jul 21st 2021 at 10:30:44 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Yea to those above.
Yes to both Terminators, weaker yeah to Flint.
Vote on Flint soon. I gotta check that movie out again sometime.
Been sitting on this more than a day now:
- Terminator 2: Judgment Day: The Terminator—second Cyberdyne Model T-101 introduced–was captured by John Conner and the Resistance in the future and reprogrammed before then being sent back to protect John as a young boy. First tracking John to his foster parents' house and then to the local mall, the Terminator smuggles his shotgun in through a box of roses, counters the T-1000's first attempt on John there and then rescues him again in a high-speed chase. The Terminator then tricks the T-1000 into giving away that he's murdered John's foster parents and is imitating his foster mother and tells John that he can't help him save his mother Sarah because the T-1000 will get to him easily. Pledging not to kill anyone and helping save Sarah anyway, the Terminator then helps blow Cyberdyne up so as to undo Skynet's existence while also wounding or attacking an army of cops all without causing any deaths. After finally destroying the T-1000, the Terminator has himself sacrificed as another means of preserving the future, proving to Sarah he developed compassion for humans that she didn't think a killing machine could have.
Yes to the Terminators and to Flint.
to the Terminators and Flint
Professor Gigachad
Flint never exactly struck me as an MB candidate but I guess he does technically meet all the requirements .
Flint & Evil Arnold
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
What about the other Good Arnold? He was in there too.
What about you?
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jul 21st 2021 at 11:30:46 AM
Yes to Flint and the two Arnies.
Folks, I'm dealing with a tough situation on another part of the site, and I might not be particularly active in the next few days depending on how it resolves. Just thought you all oughta know.
FWIW, I wish you the best.
Good luck Riley!
to Flint as well.
I went too early with my writeup. I meant to wait until Ravok had posted T-1000. That said, I want to do each individually though before I begin the tree.
Six for Schwarzenegger now, three for James Cameron, one for Jonathan Mostow.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jul 21st 2021 at 11:36:34 AM
The wifi here sucks
Yes to Flint and the OG Terminator
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Both Arnie Terminators. Abstain on Flint
Gl Riley
Edited by Snowy66 on Jul 22nd 2021 at 12:05:23 PM
Goku Black
Og Terminater and Flint.
The Draftsman of Doom
Lord of Hell
Yes to Flint and Arnold Terminator.
And yeah, I can confirm that there are versions of the Odyssey that remove the rape stuff. My history class in 7th grade had us read a version of it, and I'm certain that one didn't have any mention of using women as sex slaves.
Gotta love Jaws!
to Flint, and both of the Terminators, 1984 one I'm especially glad to see come through.
Yeah to Verdona.