During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Gotta love Jaws!
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Aman
ofmanyinterests!
... Hey, don't look at me like that. It... it could happen. 
On serious note, to Amanda Waller.
Yeah, since MB has less negative connotations than CM, we are more lenient on Ron the Death Eater here. Like, if you successfully make a canon Idiot Hero into an MB, you're probably doing *something* right. One of our criteria is the candidate must be "charming", for one, while that is not needed for CM.
An easy Amanda Waller.
Edited by jjjj2 on May 30th 2021 at 10:16:54 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Lies and Violence!
- Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Enoch is a Chronicom anthropologist sent to record human evolution. Learning of an extinction-level event that will occur in the near future, Enoch kidnaps S.H.I.E.L.D. and sends them to the year 2091 in order to prevent the end of the world. Later assisting Fitz in reuniting with his friends by cryogenically freezing him, Enoch and Fitz infiltrate the Kree Inhuman auction to save the latter's teammates, Enoch sacrificing himself so S.H.I.E.L.D. can return to the present. With the timeline changed, Enoch helps Fitz go on the run, before reluctantly betraying both him and Simmons to the Hunters when informed they want to learn how to time travel in order to save Chronyca-2. Later rescuing his friends, Enoch defeats a Hunter sent after him before stealing his skin to infiltrate the Hunters and once again save FitzSimmons. Having stolen a Chronicom Time Stream, the three spend years preparing to stop the Hunters, returning to the time they left to execute their plan. Enoch ultimately sacrifices himself once more so that S.H.I.E.L.D. can escape a time loop, secretly having scattered pieces of a time machine throughout history they later use to contact Fitz and successfully execute the rest of their plan, dying content that he is and always has been their friend.
Lies and Violence!
And now, another one!
Agent Carter is a series also tangentially set in the MCU, starring Peggy Carter and the Stark butler Edwin Jarvis a year after WW2. The main plot of the first season concerns Howard Stark being framed for selling high tech Stark weapons to Communists, when in reality they were stolen.
The candidate
Johann Fennhoff, known to you comic people as Dr. Faustus (a name I shall use for the rest of the EP, as it's cooler), is the mastermind behind the weapon thefts. A Soviet physician and hypnotist, Faustus helped calm soldiers needing medical attention during the war, putting their minds at ease during amputations when no anesthesia was available. He and his brother were sent to fight in the Battle of Finow, were a Stark developed Hate Plague (used without Howard's permission) was deployed on the battlefield. Faustus, wearing a gas mask, was one of the few survivors, and upon finding his brother's corpse swore revenge on Stark.
Like father like son, am I right?
Faustus was eventually forcibly recruited into Leviathan (basically the communist HYDRA), working his way up to become a high-ranking member. Faustus oversaw the theft and framing of Stark, his agent in the states being Dottie Underwood, the current Soviet Black Widow.
Pretending to be a fellow prisoner and therapist to another insane genius engineer prisoner, Faustus was "rescued" by Peggy and the SSR (proto-S.H.I.E.L.D.) when they went on a mission to learn more about Leviathan. When the insane prisoner tried to take one of the SSR members hostage to bargain for freedom, Faustus tearfully shot him, and was brought to the states by the SSR as he stated he wanted to fight Leviathan.
Questioned by the SSR leader, Dooley, Faustus manages to strike a rapport with him, gradually hypnotizing him under the guise of "therapy" for his deteriorating marriage. He also makes contact with Underwood while in Dooley's office, signaling messages to her from out the window. Hypnotizing another SSR agent when Dooley briefly becomes unavailable, Faustus grills him for information before having him kill himself - but not before telling him to go and enjoy his favorite drink, so that was nice.
Faustus manages to gain enough control over Dooley, having him show him where they keep the recovered Stark weapons. Faustus, now in possession of the Stark Hate Plague (Midnight Oil), meets up with Underwood, having arranged for Dooley to put on and be killed by a Stark suicide vest as a distraction while they test out the Oil at a movie theater. The two attempt to escape the states, only to stay behind once they learn Howard (now pardoned) will be giving a speech at city hall. It's a trap to draw them out, of course, but it's too good an opportunity to miss, as they use a rigged sniper gun and a brainwashed police officer to successfully capture Howard.
Faustus and Howard talk, Faustus noting that Stark feels genuine guilt but at the same time is the kind of man who values "scientific progress" over all others. He states that he doesn't want to kill Stark but to make him suffer, hypnotizing him into attempting to unleash the Midnight Oil on New York so that his guilt afterwards will destroy him.
Of course, the plan is foiled and Faustus is captured (they just wore earplugs so he couldn't hypnotize them). Faustus is muzzled and sent to jail... sharing a cell with our old pal Arnim Zola, the implication being that Faustus helped develop HYDRA's brainwashing methods they used on Bucky.
Is he magnificent?
Faustus is pretty Affably Evil. He very clearly has no regard for anyone's lives, willing to have them kill themselves or tear each other apart due to a Hate Plague. However, he's also pretty warm and comforting to his victims, giving them advice and reassurance about their lives. Before he kills them. It's a little hard to tell how sincere he is, but he didn't have to tell that one guy to order his favorite drink before stepping in front of traffic, so there's something. The brainwashees are all in a kind of fuzzy daze, so they're in blissful ignorance as they die.
Also, he orchestrates a plan to ruin Stark that comes within only a few seconds of succeeding, so he's covered in the smarts department.
Is he a bastard?
Wants to release a Hate Plague so the populace of New York will tear itself to pieces. Admittedly, this might be a bit too heinous, not sure if his affability outweighs it.
Thoughts?
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on May 30th 2021 at 8:23:33 AM
The Moron
My issue with him? I think he has too much power over his thralls. His manipulations are done largely through mind control, and when that fails, he gets caught pretty much immediately. I mean, he gets undone by earplugs. I’m just gonna abstain on this one because I do see the appeal, and it seems that he does have a few outside of it, but I just can’t get past the fact that he gets stopped as soon as his hypnosis no longer works.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on May 30th 2021 at 11:26:46 AM
That does seem to indicate something of a one trick pony. Anything back there Emerald?
Enoch, another anti-hero keeper.
Lies and Violence!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I... do not have much.
Looking at the scene where he's finally beaten, only one person was actually smart enough to bring earplugs. Faustus does manage to pretty cleverly incapacitate the only other guy there... before, you know, attempting to brainwash him. Eh.
He's a pretty decent spy, and only starts breaking out the brainwashing once he's gotten into the middle of the SSR base. And, of course, he orchestrates the entire theft of a bunch of Stark weapons.
He definitely relies a lot on the hypnotism, but I thought he showed enough intelligence through organizing pretty much every major conflict (excluding the sexism at the SSR and the rogue Leviathan agent in the first few episodes).
I don't know, I was bored and I wanted to give it a try. Won't be that upset if he doesn't make it.
Yes to Waller and Enoch, but abstain on Faustus until the conversation pans out a little more.
I got another video recommendation today. This one is for Bwomsambi from World of Warcraft.
Caesar
'Yes' to Amanda and yeah, to Fenhoff as well. Mentioned him months ago as a potential and still think he counts—yeah he relies on his hypnosis too much, but when it works so well that he's literally on top of everyone for the entirety of the story until the last episode, having fooled even those not hypnotized with his "friendly therapist" act, and you couple it with how Affably Evil he is and what a tragic past he's got, I can't downvote the guy because one person was smart enough to deduce his hypnosis and bring safeguards to stop his Near-Villain Victory. It's also worth noting that IIRC, Fennhoff still almost won even after that takedown, and it was only Carter pulling a "I Know You're in There Somewhere" Fight on Stark to break him free from the hypnosis, which pretty much no villain in any medium ever can anticipate, lol.
Just me though, it's been years since I saw the show , but Fennhoff was one of the most memorable aspects and I specifically brought him up here months ago to urge someone to propose him because I was 99% sure he counted, so unless something else really debilitating is refreshed to me, I'm more than happy to give him an upvote.
Edited by Ravok on May 30th 2021 at 11:02:34 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
I feel like I'm leaning . Him communicating with Dottie in the office makes it seem like he's more than a one trick pony. Not to mention his plan came within a hair's breadth of succeeding.
Edited by jjjj2 on May 30th 2021 at 1:58:05 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I am leaning towards yes on Fennhoff.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Goku Black
doctor faustus
Thanks fro clarifying Emerald and Ravok. With that settled I'm a yes!
The Moron
Okay yeah, with that further clarified, I'm down to give him a yes. Nice work there Emerald!
to Fennhoff
Yes to Fennhoff.
43 and I have also decided Berserk has some nice MB candidates. stay tuned.
Goku Black
Looking forward to that.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Just off the top of my head, both Silat and Zodd seem like easy keepers. Am I on the money?
Edited by LoreDeluxe on May 30th 2021 at 11:30:12 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
You would be absolutely correct they're on the list.
@Emerald You doing Dottie too? If so, I’m looking forward to discussing her.
to Fennhoff. Good show. Too bad it only lasted two seasons.
Just another thing 2016 killed.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on May 30th 2021 at 11:32:04 AM
Lies and Violence!
I was thinking about it, but I don't think so. S2 is a bit too much of a Humiliation Conga for her, even if she gets away at the end.
If someone else wants to try her, I'm okay with that. Or if they want to convince me to try. Honestly, I'll probably get bored and try within the week, I don't know.
Ah, cripes. I mentioned Silat to 43 but I never thought of the obvious keep in Zodd! You two are smart.
Yes to Fenhoff.
As well as the quote (which currently has 4![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
) :