During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Lies and Violence!
Was going to ask if joke posts were allowed, phooey!
I might have another Skulduggery candidate, though it's less that they're smart and more that they're affable and relatively competent, so I'm still debating with myself as to whether I should make the effort.
I was going to EP Ron Foxx on April 1st as a joke (I even have his EP typed up) but I think I'll just forgo it upon reading 43110's request on trying to avoid pointless joke eps.
Edited by G-Editor on Mar 31st 2021 at 10:05:15 AM
Honestly I'm strongly of the opinion that all MBs in a work should be of equal intelligence. Sometimes it takes looking since the author might adamantly believe one character in particular is the smartest while we measure audience reaction and how things play out onscreen. I wouldn't write them off quite yet, think on it and decide if the case can be made that this candidate is as bright as the one's you've added thus far.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Thank you, I love you man but I really don't wanna see that.
Edited by 43110 on Mar 31st 2021 at 10:04:41 AM
I was planning on going to the CM thread and doing a joke EP for Nintendo (for killing Mario) literally reusing the joke from my Sephiroth “EP”.
I am not the unofficial curator of CM, I'll just look the other way ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
x3 Wait what does that mean 43? We have several examples of works with more than one MB, and given Keeper A and Keeper B, while they're both clearly intelligent Keeper B's plans are far more wide-reaching and grandiose. One example I can think of off the top of my head is Scar vs Psiren. Obviously they're both not stupid, but I'd say Scar's probably smarter (far more moving parts and pieces to juggle).
Far reaching plans =/= smarter. You're welcome to think Scar is smarter than Clara all you like but they never meet or compete with each other so that's complete conjecture.
The Moron
Well, there's a difference between two keepers have different intelligence and having different methods/goals. For instance, in Lost: Ben Linus is trying to protect the Island, defeat the Losties, and establish control as a leader, so his plans tend to be far more grandiose in scale and involve more personal manipulations with pretty much everyone. Eloise Hawking, on the other hand, is just trying to preserve the timeline, so she goes the "small moves with big impact" route and only directly interacts with about five of the main cast with about ten appearances, just manipulating her son and the Oceanic Six. It'd be a stretch to call one of them more intelligent than the other, but because they work so differently, they both stand out in their own way.
That's fair enough I guess. I would definitely say Scar's plans are more involved. It helps that as you say they never face one another. In my experience it's much easier to have those different scales of MB usually if the work or universe is quite large.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Lies and Violence!
Can I try a shorthand version? Just to get more experienced opinions on if he does enough to warrant an actual EP.
So. A god, one of the last of its pantheon, is sealed in a box. A kid opens this box (possibly being influenced by the god, they never explain). The god and its compatriots possess people so they can build up their strength, the god notably stopping one of its allies from consuming the soul of the person its possessing so that person can still go to the afterlife once they destroy the world.
The gods intend to kill themselves, which will destroy the world, as a last desperate revenge scheme against the evil gods who slaughtered their people (as earth is their holy land). The god is very nice to the kid who released them, having a debate about its plan while fully acknowledging the hypocrisy of destroying a race while avenging a destroyed race (revenge is all they have left, and humans are pretty shitty anyway). The kid convinces the god to be better than the evil gods, they go back in the box until they can decide their next course of action.
Gotta love Jaws!
I agree with that statement, but just out of curiosity what happens in cases of MB vs. MB when one outwits the other? Because I know we definitely have cases of MB's outwitting other MB's, does it not constitute one as smarter? Or just a case of one gambit turning out more successful? (This isn't meant to be a gotcha or anything, just curious.)
Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on Mar 31st 2021 at 7:23:26 AM
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
What's the concern on his intelligence? He sounds quite tricky, manipulative, philosophical and interestingly open to new ideas and allowing his mind to be changed.
Well MBs are allowed "off days", flaws and the like. If one MB outplays another it'd be by virtue of something like that, rather than being superior to another hypothetical MB.
Edited by 43110 on Mar 31st 2021 at 10:25:17 AM
The Moron
An MB can also lose with dignity (plenty of them do) or recover from a loss and still keep. It's not defeat that's an instant disqualifier, it's how they lose.
Lies and Violence!
Besides the "blow up the world" thing, I didn't think he had enough scheme-y-ness. Even Dusk pulled the whole "recruiting vampires to become minions" thing. If he sounds good, guess I should go to work!
Gotta love Jaws!
Ah that makes sense, became worried about one of my candidates for a brief second there.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
Well he is plotting and manipulating others for his scheme to blow up the world right?
Lies and Violence!
...Sort of? Getting the kid to open the box is implied, they never really explain how he did it other than "he suddenly woke up and knew how to open it." Other than that, he isn't really manipulating anyone, the other two gods he's working with were already fully on board.
Hmm... that's a weirder one and idk with how many good, clearcut keepers it's brought.
Lies and Violence!
Oh well. I'll give him a shot.
Now that the Elder Scrolls won't ever have anymore candidates ever, I'm going to move on to a couple of candidates from the Dungeons and Dragons Dark Sun setting.
Dark Sun takes place on the dying desert world of Athas where magic drains the life of all plants around the casting further turning Athas into an infertile lifeless wasteland. Sorcerers that wantonly use magic are called defilers while those that give as much as tehey take are called preservers, and the most powerful defilers in the world are the Sorcerer Kings who rule that last bastions of civilization. These city states are horrible slave states ruled by tyrannical masters and their fanatical templar servants who enforce a strict ban on magic. There are also no gods on Athas, so the rare clerics get their spells directly from the elements.
With arcane and clerical magic much rarer than in normal settings, Dark Sun makes the power of psionics far more common to make up for it. Called the Way, these mind magics are also used by the Sorcerer Kings, who combine them with their defiling magic to become powerful beings known as dragons, with their Good Counterpart being the Avangions, angelic preservers also skilled in psionics. However, the most powerful order of psionicists in the world is a secretive groups simply called the Order, made up epic level psions who attempt to maintain balance on Athas through the use of their great powers. The Order is led by six level 30 psionicists called the Cerebral Masters who have each mastered one discipline. My candidate today is the Cerebral Master of Telepathy and the antagonist of the epic adventure module Dragon's Crown.
Who is Pharistes?
Pharistes had about as good a life as anyone can have on Athas as he was born into one of the noble families of the city of Balic. Showing skill with the Way at a young age, he turned his back on his family and their wealth to start a life of adventure to seek more insight and knowledge. Sadly, all Pharistes could find in his adventuring life was that Athas was nothing but a world filled with misery and sorrow, and this forever changed him. Around the age of 40, he caught the eye of the Order and rapidly rose through their ranks over the next few decades. As a leader of the Order, he began to see the true source of Athas's woes is the rampant abuse of psionics to further personal power and ambitions, and decided nothing less than the suppression of all psionics could help heal Athas and raise the people above the everyday brutality of their lives. In his studies, Pharistes found the perfect solution in the form of an ancient relic that seamlessly combined magical and psionic power in the form of the Psionatrix. A multifaced gem filled with vibrant light, he used the artifact to create a powerful suppression field that quickly spread across the planet and nullified the use of psionics.
Pharistes intended to leave the field up for a thousand years while the Order secretly guided Athas and set things right. The other Cerebral Masters didn't immediately agree with his plan as they felt it violated the Order's vow of neutrality, so he was forced to defeat his peers to become the sole authority in the Order. Luckily for him, the lower echelons of the Order were more easily persuaded by his arguments and readily joined him, with each member receiving a small shard from the Psionatrix that allowed them to use their powers unimpeded while they held onto it. Of course, the sudden loss of psionic powers immediately draws the attention of the sorcerer kings and the avangion Korgunard. Having rescued Korgunard in a previous adventure, he sends the players to raid a bandit camp to find an ancient scroll that proves to him the Psionatrix is behind the loss of psionics. He believes that Hamanu, sorcerer king of Urik, is responsible and sends the players to infiltrate his palace to discover the truth.
Pharistes learns of the PC's actions through his spies and works through Arvego, one of his best agents, to hamper their quest. Arvego sends the players into a psionics induced nightmare that severely drains and fatigues them, and he uses it as a warning to stop their quest. After the nightmare battle, the players take shelter with a camp of herders around an oasis. Pharistes doesn't want Arvego to result to outright murder yet, so he has Arvego dominate the herders and attack the players to force them to flee into the night and without any rest. The players eventually arrive in Urik and sneak into Hamanu's palace, only to discover no connection between him and the Psionatrix. They are then captured, forced into gladiator combat for his amusement, and then questioned, all leading into learning about Korgunard's mission and a meeting between the two. They discuss who could be responsible with both coming to the conclusion the Order are the culprits. Hamanu funds an expedition led by the players to the ruins where the Psionatrix was created while Korgunard travels to meet with a powerful halfling psionicist who might have information.
The player leaves with a party of Hamanu's loyal and they travel to the oasis of Bitter Well where Pharistes and Arvego spring their next trap. Arvego dominates some giants into assaulting the P Cs and driving them toward Bitter Well weakened and injured. Arvego dominates several people in the village to lure the players into various traps including an arrow volley, poisonings, and seductions. They make it through and continue traveling to the ancient ruins that lie somewhere in the Sea of Silt, where Athas's oceans used to be before they dried up. The party hires giants to take them to the ruins, but Arvego has already dominated the giant chieftain who imprisons the players and Urikites. Hamanu's group weasel their way out of capture and leave the players behind to be sacrifices, and in the meantime the players get a telepathic message from Korgunard warning them of treachery and he suddenly cuts off. The players proceed to escape the giants, fight their way through the ruins, and find a device called a water hammer that can destroy the Psionatrix. They make long journey back to Korgunard's home to discover he never made it back from the meeting with the halfling.
The players journey into the lush halfling jungles, among the last non-desert areas on Athas to find out what happened. They encounter monstrous sloths, carnivorous flora, and cannibalistic halfling tribes in the jungle and discover the halflings are being driven into the mountains by ravenous hordes of berserk thri-kreen, mantis men. Upon eventually meeting up with the halfling psionicist and holy man, the players discover he is a member of the Order and organized a meeting between Korgunard and Pharistes. Despite Korgunard's pleas for the Order to stop, Pharistes has come to genuinely believe that all powerful dual magic/psionic creatures like Korgunard and the sorcerer kings are the greatest threats to Athas and launches a psionic assault on the avangion that weaken Korgunard enough for the halfling to deliver a death blow. After killing the halfling holy man, the players travel through the plains between the jungle and the Dragon's Crown mountains that hides the Order's ancient fortress.
On the plains, they players discover the Psionatrix suppression field has been driving the thri-kreen into a frenzy and learn that a kreen psionicist is rallying a horde to assault the Order and end the frenzy. Before they can meet up, Pharistes sends another agent to kill the players with her group of charmed flying beasts, and has also sent a dwarven psionicist to dominate a horde of kreen to pre-emptively attack the horde amassing against the Order. The players are caught in a massive battle that ends in both the dwarven and thri-kreen psionicist dead, and make their final march to the Dragon's Crown. At the foot of the Order's fortress, the player find that a few of the Order have gone rogue after the murder of Korgunard and are preparing their own attack on the fortress. Here's where Pharistes really shows off his cunning, as he allows the rogue Order members to launch their assault alongside the players, only to cancel out the crystal that are protecting the Order members from the dampening field. While this leaves his side without psionics as well, Pharistes has set up numerous defenses in the fortress including traps and guardians to turn the tide in his favor. Regardless, the players manage fight their way to the summit of the fortress where Pharistes awaits with his hands on the Psionatrix. With its power, Pharistes is effectively the most powerful psionicist on Athas and unleashes devastating mental barrages on the players in his climactic final stand.
The adventure can end in primarily two ways. Canonically, a player manages to use the water hammer to shatter the Psionatrix which stuns Pharistes long enough for him to be easy pickings. The surviving Order members effectively dissolve their group as the civil war has decimated them, and life returns to normal on the burning world of Athas. However, the adventure gives the DM an alternative ending they can play with and change the game world if they so choose. Pharistes can also win the encounter or even convince the players of the validity of his actions, and his points honestly make a lot of sense. Psionics will no longer be a part of the game world and players can't be thri-kreen anymore, but the sorcerer kings will be dramatically weakened and Pharistes will even help to eventually overthrow them. The worst part of this ending is the hordes of berserk thri-kreen, but he believes the city states can band together and drive them off. Given how much of a Crapsack World that Athas is, the bad guy winning here may be the only time in Dungeons and Dragons history when such an outcome makes the world a better place.
Is he magnificent?
On a traditional scale of 3-18 for ability scores, Pharistes has a 17 in charisma, an 18 in intelligence, and a 20 in wisdom, but such things don't always translate directly into the story well. In this case, they actually do as Pharistes has spent decades plotting his suppression of psionics and genuinely believes this will make Athas a better place, and it's damn hard to disagree with him on that. He sends his agents to harass and attack the players on every step of their journey as soon as he discovers they might be a threat to his plans and takes advantage of every opportunity to lure in and destroy his enemies. He's also a very charismatic leader that managed to earns undying loyalty from many of the Order members and only loses a few when some become disillusioned with how far he's willing to go. In the end, during his valiant last stand, the DM is advised for him to try to turn the players to his side through logical reasoning and debate. Overall, a complex True Neutral Anti-Villain that has the best intentions for the world at large.
Is he a bastard?
While Pharistes does not actually have an evil alignment, his good intentions are nevertheless marred with very questionable methods. Besides sending assassin's after the players, killing an agent of unquestionable good such as Korgunard and accepting the thri-kreen frenzy as side effect push him over the bastard line. Of course, compared to the genocidal slavers and rapist tyrants that are the Sorcerer Kings, Pharistes is practically a saint.
Any mitigating factors?
Not really. He ultimately loses, but only after a climactic final stand against the players.
Final Verdict?
I think he's an easy ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
.
Easy keeper.
The Moron
Yes to Pharistes.
For the sake of posterity, I'm gonna folder in all the Buffy candidates that don't make the cut just in case they come up again:
Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Luke: Too smug with a humiliating death
Darla: Has potential, but she comes back in Angel, so not talking about her yet
"The Witch"
Catherine Madison: Too sadistic and petty
"Teacher's Pet"
The She-Mantis: Doesn't scheme enough
"Nightmares"
Billy: He's not doing anything intentionally
"The Puppet Show"
Sid the dummy: Too perverted
"Out of Mind, Out of Sight"
Marcie: Too sadistic and volatile - a real shame, cause she had serious potential.
The Anointed One: Doesn't scheme enough and dies easily
Angelus: So many issues I don't have time to get into
Drusilla: There's a certain charm about her, but she's too crazy
Spike: Lovesick puppy later on
"Some Assembly Required"
Chris, Eric, and Daryl: Daryl's too manic, Eric's too sadistic and perverted, and Chris doesn't scheme enough
"Inca Mummy Girl"
Ampata: Comes incredibly close to counting, but her death has pretty much every disqualifier all at once
"Reptile Boy"
Machida: Generic Doomsday Villain
Frat boys: Childish, sadistic, petty, Faux Affably Evil, take your pick really
"Lie to Me"
Ford: Comes damn close, but he only gets to be a vampire for about three seconds before he's easily killed - plus, at his core, he's just a scared kid.
"The Dark Age"
Eyhgon: What little personality he has is too sadistic
"What's my Line, Parts 1 & 2"
Biker and Cop: Not even in the same universe as this trope
Norman/bug guy: Doesn't scheme enough
"Ted"
Ted: Even if we disregard his Serial Killer status, he's abusive and controlling the moment things don't go his way
"Bad Eggs"
The Gorch brothers: Tector's an idiot and Lyle's a coward
"Surprise" and "Innocence"
The Judge: No personality and dies hilariously
"Phases"
Cain: Could not be any further from this
"Killed by Death"
Der Kindestod: No, no, NO, NO
"I Only Have Eyes For You"
James: Has too much power over his victims and is largely powerless to his possession - which is a shame, cause his possessing Buffy and Angel is a genius gambit
"Anne"
Ken: Sociopathic monster
"Dead Man's Party"
Ovu Mobani: No personality
"Faith, Hope, and Trick"
Kakistos: Sadistic Hate Sink
"Beauty and the Beasts"
Pete: Clear allegory for domestic abuse
"Homecoming"
The Germans: They're tricked into killing each other - while Buffy tricking people to death is common, tricking them into killing each other is not
"Lover's Walk"
Spike: God I love the guy, but he's a pathetic mess
"The Wish"
Vamp!Xander and Vamp!Willow: Their torture of Angel has clear rape undertones
"Amends"
The First Evil: It comes back in season 7
"Gingerbread"
Hans and Gretta: The way the adults act after their true form is revealed suggests literal mind control is at play, plus their death is hilarious
"Helpless"
Travers: Pretentious prick
Kralik: Cannibalized his mother while still human
"The Zeppo:"
Jack and the zombies: Charmless dicks
"Bad Girls"
Balthazar: Psychopathic Manchild
"The Prom"
Tucker Wells: Insanely petty
Anyone in the Initiative: Unhelpful at best, actively harmful at worst, and they torture the innocent Oz For Science!
Maggie Walsh: Her sole scheme blows up in her face humiliatingly, and she's killed by her creation within seconds of him waking up
"Living Conditions"
Kathy: Absolutely insufferable
"The Harsh Light of Day"
Spike: It's here that he starts to lose this status for good
"Fear Itself"
Gachnar: Aside from being a sadistic bastard... he dies by getting stepped on
"Beer Bad"
Bar owner: Doesn't really do anything
The Cavemen: Do I really need to say it?
"Pangs"
Hus: Just isn't magnificent enough - his plan is largely just killing people, and he dies a minute after his weakness is discovered
"Doomed"
The trio of demons: Generic Doomsday Villains
"A New Man"
Ethan Rayne: I want him to count so badly, but to recap, he's incapable of taking his win and leaving, his end is pathetic (in both show and comic), he's a coward at heart, and is willing to let Buffy kill Giles out of pure spite.
"Superstar"
Jonathan: One of my favorite characters (and from the bottom of my heart, fuck Andrew for killing him), but in the one moment he's actually capable, he's doing it via magic and becomes a weakling again the moment it's done.
The monster: Mindless beast.
Glory: I love her to death and can forgive some of her instability, but she's a petty Psychopathic Womanchild at her core.
Ben: Poor bastard tries his best and comes surprisingly close, but it's thanks to him that Glory learns that the Key is human, so a lot of the conflict's spiral can be blamed on him.
Doc: His final appearance has him too sadistic and defeated too easily.
"Buffy Vs. Dracula"
Dracula: Defeat is too humiliating, even by Buffy's standards - plus, he comes back in the comics
"Real Me"
Harmony: For god's sake, it's Harmony.
"The Replacement"
Toth: Doesn't do enough
"Family"
Lei-Ach: No personality
The Maclays: My God, even Adam has more charm than these guys.
"Shadow"
Giant snake: It's a giant snake
Sandy: Doesn't do enough, especially compared to Veruca
"Listening to Fear"
Queller: It's a disgusting little beast
"Triangle"
Olaf: I love the guy, but he's just not this
"Checkpoint"
Any of the Council: Absolutely worthless pricks
"I Was Made To Love You"
Warren Mears: Jesus Christ, don't even fucking joke about that
April: Brute force Yandere
Rack: Even disregarding his pathetic death, his role in the "magic = drugs" metaphor is that of a pimp
The Trio: Don't. Just don't.
Dark Willow: Disregarding whether or not we can keep her narratively separate, she ends on an emotional breakdown and comes back in the comics.
"Bargaining"
Razor and the hellions: Charmless brutes, even without the rape implications
"After Life"
Demon: Could not be more generic
"Flooded"
M'Fashnik: Dude gets played by Warren
"All the Way"
Zack and Justin: Don't do enough
"Tabula Rasa"
Teeth: Near miss thanks to his exit, plus he apparently comes back in After the Fall
"Older And Far Away"
The demon: It shows a surprising amount of intelligence through the use of its power, but it has no personality to back it up
"As You Were"
Suvolte: It's a gross thing
"Normal Again"
Glarghk Guhl Kashma'nik: No personality
"Seeing Red"
And say goodbye to the possibility of Spike ever counting
The First Evil: Maybe if it weren't so absolutely fucking vile. I would kill to make it keep as a CM.
Caleb: Just look at his CM entry
"Lessons"
The ghosts: Generic
"Beneath You"
Ronnie: Generic
"Same Time Same Place"
Gnarl: Sadistic freak
"Help"
Peter: Asshole Victim
"Selfless"
Halfrek: Love her to death, but she's not this. Her one scheme fails because of her stupidity, and her attempts to corrupt Anya backfire to cause her death.
"The Killer In Me"
Amy: Petty and arrogant bitch
"First Date"
Lissa: Sadistic monster
"The High School Years"
Everyone is either petty, defeated easily, charmless, or stupid.
Tales
Everyone but James: Everyone either lacks the personality or the Magnificence. Edna Giles comes closest, but her only act is to threaten a vampire, so she’s not bad enough.
Angel
Darla: Not only is she complicit in all of Angelus' crimes, but she straight up rapes Angel in his sleep
Lee Mercer: Butt-Monkey who dies humiliatingly
"City of Angels"
Russell Winters: Classic Smug Snake
"Lonely Hearts"
Talamour: Is literally a walking STD
"In The Dark"
Marcus: Paedophile
"I Fall to Pieces"
Ronald Meltzer: Creepy Yandere
"Rm w/a Vu"
Griff: Puts up a good showing, but doesn't do anything particularly noteworthy
Maude Pearson: She gets completely played by the son she murdered
"Sense and Sensitivity"
"Little" Tony Papazian: Arrogant sexist who bungles his escape attempt
"Hero"
The Scourge: Demon Nazis
"Parting Gifts"
Barney: Traffics Cordelia and mentions slavery as a possibility
"Somnambulist"
Penn: Gives a great showing, but his prime motivation is daddy issues
"Expecting"
Wilson: The forced pregnancy thing is too fucked up even if he's not an outright rapist
"She"
Jhiera: She's good, but she needs Angel to bail her out just a bit too much
"I've Got You Under My Skin"
Ryan Anderson: Terrifying monster of a child
"The Prodigal"
Henchman #1: Comes closer than his boss, but doesn't do enough
Demon: Arrogant prick
"The Ring"
The MacNameras: Slavers
Tom Cribb and Trepkos: They're cool, but they don't do much
"Eternity"
Rebecca Lowell: Dumb bitch manages to unleash Angelus on accident
"Five by Five"
Faith: Death Seeker with a Villainous Breakdown
"Sanctuary"
Assassin demon: Doesn't end up doing anything
Council Spec Ops team: All of them get their asses kicked
"War Zone"
Knox the vampire: Offhand Backhand death
"Blind Date"
Vanessa Brewer: She's cool and all, but she's also sadistic and gets tricked pretty easily
"Judgement"
The Tribunal: Don't actually do anything like Lloyd does
"First Impressions"
Deevak/Jameel: Aside from the cool reveal, he's not particularly noteworthy, plus he's smug
"Untouched"
Bethany: Isn't doing anything bad on purpose
Her father: Rapist
"Dear Boy"
Darla: Gives a great showing - she's also a rapist
"Guise Will be Guise"
Lanier: Doesn't do enough
Bryce: Gets dunked on hard at the end
Fray
Gunther: Just a tad bit too perverted, otherwise he comes closest.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Aug 24th 2021 at 10:25:48 AM
Lies and Violence!
Pharistes.
Skulduggery Pleasant again. In case anyone forgot: magic's a thing; the title characters are the titular skeleton detective and his partner Valkyrie Cain; and the Greater Scope Villains are these eldritch gods called the Faceless Ones, who have long been banished from earth.
The candidate
The three Apocalypse Kings are the main antagonists of their titular short novella (Apocalpyse Kings), being representatives from three ancient races of gods: The Deathless, the Sathariel, and the Cythraul. These three races, in ancient times, were enemies of the Faceless Ones. They were losing their big god war but wanted to ensure that the Faceless Ones would starve, so they each sent one of the last of their survivors to kill their worshippers (God Needs Prayer Badly). These are the Kings, and the Faceless Ones managed to capture them and seal them in a magic puzzle box.
The box comes into possession of a kid named Adedayo. As has been mentioned it's implied that the Deathless manipulated him into opening it. It had mostly been forgotten about for a few weeks after he and his parents had tried in vain to open it with a screwdriver, when "Adedayo woke in the middle of the night, suddenly knowing how to open it." A previous short story featured a guy mentally compelled to build a complicated magic doomsday device, so I'm assuming that was the case here.
Once freed, the Kings probe Adedayo's mind for information. It's a two-way street, as Adedayo is able to see into their minds also and learn their plans, though the Deathless later mentions that he blocked him from the stuff that would have melted his brain. They leave without incident, going to possess people at Adedayo's school and regain their power.
When Adedayo runs into the Cythraul, it mentions that they had intended to leave him alone in return for freeing them. It also mentions that they're going to eat the souls of the people they possess, but the Deathless makes it a point that no matter how powerful it'd make them they're not going to do that, they'll feed but not devour. They want to keep the damage to a minimum, and allow the souls of humanity to freely cross into the afterlife once they're dead.
The Deathless explains that the Kings intend to kill themselves, pooling their power into an orb that essentially serves as loading a gun with three bullets. Their deaths will cause their souls to reverberate and shake the world to pieces. While the Faceless Ones technically aren't on earth anymore, the Kings note that they have been recently (book three of the series) and will stop at nothing until they return. The Kings want them to return to a desolate rock with no worshippers. They note that while they could go and fight them they'd be horribly outnumbered and have a high chance of losing, while destroying their homeland is a guaranteed chance of damaging them.
Valkyrie still attempts blatant reverse psychology, which the Deathless wastes no time calling her out on in an amusing scene. While pooling their energy drains them, the Cythraul and the Sathariel are still strong enough to distract Valkyrie and Pleasant while the Deathless runs off with the orb. Adedayo chases after him and they have a debate. The Deathless tells him that what awaits him after death is far better than what he has now, that this current life is an insignificant space of time for his eternal soul. He acknowledges the hypocrisy of destroying humanity, retaliating that the Kings have already lost and revenge is all they have left.
Adedayo gradually manages to convince him to stop, pointing out that while the Faceless Ones consider earth their homeland and would be pissed if it were gone, they could still find a new dimension of worshippers. The Kings shouldn't throw everything into revenge, they should be better than the Faceless Ones - listen to the puny mortals! Don't destroy them!
The Deathless effortlessly puts Adedayo to sleep, considers his argument, than goes and gets the other Kings to abandon the plan. They take back their energy and go back into the box until they "decide what to do with themselves."
Magnificence and Bastardness
The Deathless and the other Kings want to destroy the world, second part covered, moving on.
As mentioned, I'm iffy on the magnificence. The Deathless is incredibly affable. He treats Adedayo with respect, answers questions when asked, and is willing to debate over his actions when he can literally just throw the orb on the ground and win right there and then. While he wants to destroy humanity he otherwise cares for them, he wants to ensure their souls stay intact so they can go to the apparently rad afterlife, and stops the Cythraul from eating them. Despite being a god he's somewhat humble and down-to-earth, he knows he's a hypocrite and banters about the arrogance of his race to call themselves the "Deathless" (before the Faceless Ones they didn't think anything could kill them).
The problem is that, as mentioned, he doesn't do anything really schemey. Adedayo opening the box may have been him, but that's just an educated guess. He possesses Valkyrie, but only briefly pretends to be her before dropping the act (partially to reassure Adedayo that, despite what the Cythraul says, the Kings aren't going to eat his or anyone else's soul).
Overall, he's just a really affable and reasonable god who totally could have ended the world if he hadn't been up against a mediocre debate team member. Thoughts?
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Mar 31st 2021 at 8:41:56 AM
Pharistes.
Oh funny CANDIDATES are more than welcome!