During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everybody from my last post.
I'm Sad Frogerson.
Pierce is an interesting case. I think of all the HYDRA leaders in the MCU, he's the only one who really seems to believe in bringing peace through tyranny, as opposed to other leaders who usually only care about obtaining power. He's definitely the most affable out of all of them and capable of thinking on his feet.
to Pierce.
To the Psycho Pass baddies (especially Makishima)
I’ll give a to Pierce and Ruby as well
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 20th 2018 at 10:27:06 PM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
to Makishima. Love the dude and glad to see him qualify for the thread
Pierce I think. He was always one of the more affable MCU baddies.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Sly, who's a great Guile Hero but far too nice a guy for me to call him "bastard".
Edited by PolarPhantom on Aug 21st 2018 at 10:15:46 AM
Pierce and Psycho Pass candidates.
Eninket Draft:
- Dreamblood Duology: Eninket, the charming Prince of Gujareh. When Eninket was a child, he learned that his father, who was Prince at the time, and the rest of the Kingdom's elite were being controlled by the Hetawa through Dreamblood addiction. Eninket resolved that this would never happen to him and so he murdered his father and most of his siblings to become Prince himself. Eninket investigated the history of Gujaraat and learned that the Hetawa murdered the founder of Gujaraat when they couldn't control him. Eninket uses this knowledge to blackmail the Hetawa into obeying him. With the Hetawa under control, Eninket decides to become a god by consuming a massive quantity of Dreamblood, which could only be obtained by murdering tens of thousands of people. To gather the Dreamblood, Eninket corrupts an elderly Gatherer into a Reaper. Eninket then assembles a mercenary army to attack the neighboring country of Kisua, intending for his Reaper to devour both the mercenary and Kisuati armies to generate the dreamblood he needs. Afterwards, Eninket would send the Gujareen army to conquer Kisua and from there, the world. When Eninket's only surviving brother, the Gatherer Ehiru, attempts to stop him, Eninket locks Ehiru and Ehiru's apprentice Nijiri in a cell with the intent of corrupting Ehiru into a Reaper. However, Ehiru and Nijiri escape and kill Eninket. While Eninket's plans are monstrous, he is a loving father and husband who sincerely believes that all of his crimes are necesary to give the world the immortal monarch it needs to prosper. In the end, he only fails because he made the reasonable assumption that a novice Gatherer like Nijiri wouldn't be able to defeat his Reaper.
From Doctor Strange (2016):
- Magnificent Bastard: Strange himself during the Final Battle, given his trap against Dormammu.
Dormammu: You will never win!Strange: No. But I can lose. Again. And again. And again. And again. Forever. That makes you my prisoner.
Strange is a hero, so he shouldn't count.
Edited by costanton11 on Aug 21st 2018 at 7:35:57 AM
@ Irrose, Damn, he's a busy dude by the looks of that writeup, go ahead and add, mayne.
@ constanton, Go ahead and purge, prolly just spilled over from prior decay allowing Guile Heros on the trope.
Definite hell yes to Makishima. And the other, instantly inferior one, I suppose.
Alrighty I’ve got another potential candidate (or rather candidates) from Bioshock Infinite.
What’s the Work?
Bioshock Infinite is the third installment of the Bioshock video game series, mostly taking place in the year 1912 where former Pinkerton agent Booker Dewitt must travel to the airborne city of Colombia to rescue the girl Elizabeth so he can wipe away his debt.
Upon rescuing Elizabeth, the two become involved in conflict between the nativist and elite Founders that rule Columbia and strive to keep its privileges for White Americans, and the Vox Populi, underground rebels representing the underclass of the city.
Booker also discovers that Elizabeth has the special ability to manipulate "Tears" in the space-time continuum that ravage Columbia, and soon discovers her to be central to the city's dark secrets.
Among these dark secrets includes this dastardly duo. The R. Lutece Twins!
Who Are They? What Have They Done?
The Lutece Twins are two mysterious twins who keep appearing before Booker in the most improbable of places. However would soon reveal themselves to be the reason why everything is happening in the game.
Lets start with the female twin Rosalind, a quantum physicist, who wrote books about scientific studies on alternate universes. She was approached by Zachary Hale Comstock who promise to fund her work if she helped him create the floating city, Colombia; She agreed to Comstock’s terms.
During that time she learned about alternate realities and in one of those realities, she had a male version of herself, Robert. They were able to commutate through different realities and eventually were able to create Tears that allowed Robert to travel to Rosalind’s reality and the two met.
Comstock learn about the twins success and asks if he can use their technology for his city Colombia which the twins decide to let him use. The Twins would also help Comstock find a heir for him where they kidnapped an infant Elizabeth from Booker in a different reality; during the kidnapping Elizabeth lost a finger through a tear which also gave her powers to open tears.
The male twin Robert, would soon grow disgusted with Comstock self-delusions and the racism that appeared on the city that he and Rosalind created for him, as well as Comstock’s plan to have his prophet Elizabeth lead the destruction of New York City in 1983. So he decided to go against Comstock and convinces Rosalind to join him under the ultimatum in that if she doesn’t he will leave her something that Rosalind doesn’t want.
Comstock learn of the twins going against him so he had Jeremiah Fink to sabotage their contraption the allow them to use tear. This caused the twins to be were scattered across time and space, though this was hardly an inconvenience for them as it allowed them to appear wherever and whenever they wanted.
So they continued with their plan to stop Comstock by going to Booker and convince him to go to Colombia and find Elizabeth on the promise that they will wipe away his debt clean. They also will to dirty their hands themselves as they killed the people guarding the lighthouse, which might have been working for Comstock, convinces Daisy Fritzroy to start the Vox Populi and let Elizabeth to kill her so she’ll be able to have the strength to kill Comstock, and guide Booker throughout Colombia. This all leads to the destruction of Colombia the deaths of its citizen and the death of Comstock himself, excactly as the Twins planned.
However they weren't done yet, as they learn of more Comstocks in alternate realities so they collaborated with Elizabeth to travel to those realities and kill every last Comstock. Once they kill the last Comstock in Rapture, the Twins satisfied with what they’ve accomplish leave and explore the universe.
Are the Intelligent? Are they Charismatic?
Being quantum physicist, of course they’re going to be intelligent. Not only are they very gifted scientists and inventors who built Colombia and its inventions but they are also skilled at being great manipulators and masterminds orchestrating the whole plot of Infinite. Even when unexpected things happen to them such as Fink sabotaging their contraption, this never deters them in the slightest they just change courses and have Booker help them and it works in their favor.
As for Charisma they both have slightly different personalities with Robert being more playful, optimistic, and conscientious while Rosalind is more stoical, fatalistic, and ruthless, though they both are very charming, cool headed, snarky, which has made one of the most memorable characters in the Bioshock franchise and major Ensemble Darkhorses. In fact they won the award for characters of the year during the 2013’s Spike Video Game Awards because of their charisma. So check on both boxes.
What The Competition Like?
Oh hands no one comes close to the Lutece Twins level of intelligent, charisma, and accomplishments. Comstock himself is no where near this trope as he’s a delusional, racist, zealous, and self righteous supremacist who does everything all to boost his own ego and everyone else is either a smug racist asshole or an insane revolutionary. Thankfully the Twins are none of those things which makes them much more likable and endearing to the players.
Are the Bastards? Are They Too Much of a Bastard?
Okay, The created Colombia helped Comstock kidnapped a baby from her father, personally killed people themselves, helped orchestrate a revolution that engulfed the entire city in flames, convinces Daisy to endanger a child so that Elizabeth can kill her, and left Elizabeth a Frank Fontane’s mercy once they were done killing the last Comstock. So yeah I’d say that they are bastards alright.
Despite this they do have a few scruples that prevent them from being too much of bastards. First off Robert was disgusted of how self-deluded Comstock was, how racist the people were in Colombia, and Comstock plan to have Elizabeth destroy New York, so much so that he conspired to work against him.
Rosalind has proven herself to be more of a bastard than her male counterpart being indifferent to her surroundings, that said she does truly care for Robert so much so that she was willing to help Robert stop Comstock when Robert threatened to leave her, and doesn’t really like Comstock herself, only helping him because he was funding her research. So a pass here to.
Final Verdict?
I’ll leave that to you guys!
Edited by G-Editor on Nov 16th 2019 at 6:40:55 AM
@43110: His plan is very elaborate. Alas, that was the shortest I could condence his schemes without selling him short.
Luteces
Edited by lrrose on Aug 21st 2018 at 11:45:06 AM
All good mayne, it takes the words it takes.
Also, yes there for your duo, G.
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Goku Black
Luteces
Has anyone EP'd Hugo Strange from the Arkham games?
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Cutting from King of Thorn for not having context: Zeus.
IPP Wick Check created.
Goku Black
From Series/Revenge
- Magnificent Bastard: Emily Thorne, which comes naturally from being based on Edmond Dantes. For starters, she arranges an affair for the husband of Lydia, who gave testimony against her father, exposes Lydia's own affair with the husband of her main target, obtains photographic evidence to make sure Lydia gets nothing in the divorce she started after discovering her husband's adultery, has her publicly exiled from the Hamptons at the hands of a scorned Victoria and walks away with a perfectly established cover and full ownership of Lydia's former beach house. And that's the start of her plan.
- Victoria ascends to the position in season two by framing Conrad for her own murder.
- But Emily cements her position in the top spot come "Execution" by making Victoria look like she's crazy for claiming she's Amanda Clarke and getting her committed
Now Emily I think is a fantastic example of this trope being utterly ruthless enough while still staying sympathetic. I actually could rewrite her if you guys are open to it. Victoria doesn't count though |(Too much of a Smug Snake who ultimately is no match for Emily).
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Speaking of Makishima and Serial Killers...Got another EP again and honestly, this guy is not on my to do list and he's a rather tricky one too.
What's the Work
So the work name is Ranpo Kitan: Game of Laplace. Which is a 2015 anime loosely based on Edogawa Ranpo's works in order to celebrate his 50th death. The story at first takes place in a school which a boy named Kobayashi attends to. Here, Kobayashi was incriminated due to a murder incident that happened in the school. However, his life really changes when he meet a renowned detective in Japan, Detective Akechi. Needless to say, Kobayashi takes an interest in Akechi and, in spite of his friend Hashiba's worries, he volunteers to be Akechi's assistant.
Episode 4 onwards tells us about Akechi and Kobayashi tries to solve a series of murders from a vigilante known as Twenty Faces. Towards the end of the story however, it was revealed that Twenty Faces is a persona that oppressed people wore and their motive? Trying to fix the broken system in the society and eradicate all of the injustice by murdering all of the criminals who got scot-off free or murdering people who are truly corrupt in the society and abuse their authority. Needless to say, the Original Twenty Faces had a connections with Akechi in the past and this is the guy that I will try to propose today. Meet Namikoshi, the original Twenty Faces.
Who is He/What Has He Done
So... Namikoshi is the original Twenty Faces and is revealed to be Akechi's friend in his School years. In his school days, Namikoshi was frequently bullied by his classmates to the point they punched or kick him for no reason and most of the teacher and his friends ignored him especially the latter because they were scared of the bully. Not only that, his home life isn't that much better either... His mother often ignore him and his father often beats him for trivial matters such as he never gets the first rank but instead he got the second rank and his parents saw him as a burden to the society.
His life wasn't that great until he met with Akechi, the smartest person in the school. And needless to say, Akechi always saved Namikoshi's life from the bullies and he teamed up with Namikoshi in order to create a program known as the "Dark Star". However, his life takes the turn for the worse as the bullies in his school were increasingly violent to the point they want to cut his faces when Akechi wasn't around and his parents didn't bring him to the hospital and when Akechi tried to find Namikoshi, the latter's father simply tell him to "Fuck off!" As a result, Namikoshi tries to solve the program faster than before.
And needless to say, he used said program to murders all of those who abused him including his parents and his bullies. Not only that, he also used said program to murder all of the people who are truly corrupted such as corrupt Prime Minister, corrupt Policemen or criminal who escaped their custody very easily. Needless to say, Akechi found this out and call the project a huge failure. He also asks Namikoshi to withdrew from the project so that one of them didn't die including Namikoshi himself. However, Namikoshi doesn't care and didn't see their project to be failure and he's just fine if he dies considered his life is pretty shitty overall. Needless to say, after Akechi disagrees with Namikoshi's statement, the latter then tries to kill himself by burning his body and as a result, the legend of Twenty Faces live on for three years. But that wasn't the case...
Three years later, it turns out that Namikoshi still alive and it was revealed that he used a dummy to fake his own death. And he conspire with the medical examiner, Minami, so that they could kill the doctor that murders Minami's brother and lure Akechi into his trap. Needless to say, he also kidnaps Kobayashi and took him to the Clock Tower. Namikoshi then tells his backstory towards Kobayashi which is so enlightening that the latter wants to follow his goals (although he has a hidden agenda for himself) and he also reveals one of his main objective towards Kobayashi: He tries to kills 10 children by positioning them at a clock tower and have each of them jump off one by one every 5 minutes including Kobayashi. Oh! And I need to note something: Most of the children is Twenty Face sympathizers and most of them were abused in their life. Not only that, he let the media broadcast this killings so that the world could change for the better.
Needless to say, Namikoshi tries to beckon Akechi into the clock tower. However, Akechi was impended by Twenty Faces sympathizers. Fortunately, his companions in previous episodes such as the Shadow Man arrives to keep the sympathizers distracted and Kobayashi's best friend, Hashiba, tries to escort Akechi into the Clock Tower with a motorcycle. At the tower, Namikoshi agrees to end the killings of the 10 children and instead, he and Kobayashi fall. Fortunately, Akechi saving Namikoshi while Hashiba saves Kobayashi and it was revealed that Kobayashi wanted to see both Akechi and Namikoshi forgive each other. However, Namikoshi willingly lets go of Akechi's hand to fall to his death. Despite the massive crime that Namikoshi commits was slowly faded into obscurity around 1,5 years, the influence of Twenty Faces still lives on into people's hearts.
Is He Charming, Charismatic, Thinks on His Feet?
Oh hell yes he is! Especially on the charming and charismatic part. Despite he was supposed to committed suicide 3 years ago, his influence towards other people who were oppressed were pretty strong to the point he got some huge cult following and some of them ended up becoming an imitator of Twenty Faces because of them being truly oppressed or considering the fact that Japanese and most of the members of society in there are either corrupt or simply retarded. And as far as the master planner goes, Oh hell yes! He orchestrated the murder of the children for his own plans so that he could shape the society for the better and to make people who abused the children understand their problems and they need to save them. And I think he resorted to Xanatos Gambit so I think I'm cool with that and some of his victims that he murdered 3 years ago danced in his palm of his hands. However, I think the main issue would be in the "Bastard" category.
Is He A Bastard? Too Much?
So I won't going to downplay this but yes... Namikoshi is definitely a bastard. I think you will have a problem with me by saying this but despite his murders he committed 3 years ago is indirect, his methods could be considered to be awful because most of his victims ended up in a pretty brutal deaths such as some of them were getting crushed by a car or ended up getting their body crushed in the elevator. Not only that, he is also responsible for the attempted murder of 10 children (6 of them died on his hands) in the present and is truly responsible for the Twenty Faces phenomenon that spread through Japan.
I can understand that some of his methods would be too much for the "Magnificent" trope for him to qualify. But I think there are some cases that could be made and there are some things that could prevent him for being too much of a bastard: He was a victim of a severe abuse from his parents and bullying from his classmates and most of his friends in the school except Akechi ignored him when he was being bullied which resulted of him getting snapped and this is rather understandable. Also, I think believe it or not, he believes that he does tried to make a better society by influencing other people that was oppressed by either law or corrupt people so I think there are some notions of Blue-and-Orange Morality and Well-Intentioned Extremist goals that he had. I also should note something about the children that were being murdered: most of them had a pretty shitty life such as being abused or being molested so they ended up becoming Twenty Faces sympathizers and willingly follow Namikoshi's orders to jump from the Clock Tower and Namikoshi's motives? Is to make people realize that they were wrong and needed a change and also he wants to incite their empathy so that they could save their own children on the clock tower which sadly never happened. So I think at the end of the day, Namikoshi has a well intentioned goals, but I think his methods are just awful. Still, if you see him as too much of a bastard, I don't blame you. But personally, I think he is a magnificent bastard even though he's not the best villain ever in my book.
Final Verdict
I'll let you guys decide.
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Aug 22nd 2018 at 4:51:48 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
From the Batman: Arkham Series pages:
City:
- Hugo Strange, invoked by Catwoman. And by extension, Ra's Al Ghul. What makes him impressive is that he's able to make himself a nearly Joker level threat purely out of his powers of observation and skills as a psychologist. Fans cite his boast to The Riddler that he figured out Batman's identity purely by creating a psychological profile and figuring out who it best applied to, Boring, but Practical and far more effective than Riddler's petty bag of tricks and puzzles which never let him figure out Gotham's greatest riddle, who is Batman?. He uses the same to manipulate every faction in Arkham, the only one who eludes him is The Joker which puts him ahead of The Penguin, Two Face, The Riddler, Bane and Mr. Freeze at least.
- Riddler almost applies, but he gets out bastarded by Strange and the man himself.
- Joker. It's practically tradition but even then his plan in the game, him rubbing it into Batman's face how obvious it is and how it's happening right under his nose, makes The Reveal a dark, twisted Moment of Awesome for him.
Knight:
- Scarecrow uses the Joker's absence to unite all of Batman's enemies under his banner and take over Gotham Bane-style. He then succeeds in outing Batman's secret identity to the whole world, forcing Batman to go underground after "one last night". This is something no Batman villain in any adaptation ever succeeded at, and definitely not Joker.
- Granted, some would argue that his victory owes more to Batman holding the Idiot Ball than to his own abilities, since Robin and Gordon would not have been vulnerable to kidnapping had Batman not kept secrets from them or push them away; others note that Batman kept his allies at arm's length because he was afraid they would get hurt, a fear that Scarecrow knew about and was very deliberately exploiting throughout the game.
Joker, I know he's a special case for a lot of tropes like MB and CM, so I dunno here. Riddler, absolutely not, he is the eternal Smug Snake who is awful at thinking on his feet when Batman does something he doesn't see coming. Scarecrow, I dunno if he's charismatic enough, but maybe.
Absolutely for Strange, though. I'll EP him unless someone wants to argue against it.
A Series of Unfortunate Events (2004)
- Magnificent Bastard: Count Olaf certainly has his moments, managing to stay one step ahead of everyone up until the climax.
Count Olaf is hella Laughably Evil, wears crappy Paper Thin Disguises and tries to marry a little girl. Is it a cut?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I believe Ravok called dibs on Strange, Scarecrow, and Joker. You may want to ask him first.
Luteces and Namikoshi.
Edited by DocSharp on Aug 22nd 2018 at 12:43:30 PM
So any more votes for the Luteces?
Also Don't forget to vote for Elfenliedfan's candidate either, speaking of which to Namikoshi
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 22nd 2018 at 9:37:40 AM
Small yes to the Ranpo yes and the Luteces.
Easy yea to Makishima... still find it funny that he seems based off Johan, who in turn seems based off this trope but only Makishima manages to not be so fucking creepy in his calm demeanour that he's undermined as a keeper.