During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Late ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to the Simpsons proposals. Going through "American Dad" no one counts. Although most of the main protagonists are definitely bastards they suffer from the same continuity issue that Stewie does, among many other factors.
Roger, in particular is way too vile. His actions are downright horrific.
The one shot villains are also too vile, with all of their plans being more on doing horrible things for the sake of a punchline, sadism or For the Evulz than an actual goal that requires cunning strategy.
One classic example now...I give you: Arsene Lupin.
Who is Arsene Lupin?
Created by Maurice Leblanc, Arsene Lupin is the archetypical Gentleman Thief in western literature. Well known for his look with a monocle, top hat and black cape. Lupin is a crime-solvig-and committing master thief who is a master of disguise, well known for keeping readers guessing who he is to pull off some crazy heist. Some of his greater actions?
Lupin is so well known he sends his calling card to potential marks...relying on his reputation to have them just leave the loot for him rather than risk the fear and anticipation of him taking it. In one story, Lupin is in prison, awaiting trial, but vows he'll escape. Realizing it's too well defended, he disguises himself as another man and the inspector who caught him vows that it isn't Lupin, who must have substituted someone...but it WAS Lupin and he banked hard on his rep convincing them he did escape. It worked.
Another time? Lupin broke into a wealthy man's home but left empty-handed, instead leaving his calling card with this scribbled across it: "Arsène Lupin, gentleman-burglar, will return when the furniture is genuine." You get the idea? Lupin will always outwit his enemies and get his mark. He's just that damn good.
Is he charming? Charismatic? The good planner?
He pulls off a Batman Gambit once a story. Lupin is brilliant, audacious, daring, charismatic, charming, suave and everything else. Now, he's not obnoxiously perfect: he has failed, such as one story where the Big Bad was the woman he loved and met her end in the ensuing conflict, prompting Lupin to mourn that he'd won the loot but lost everything. But Lupin is cunning, brilliant and utterly charming. There's no debate on this one.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
He's a thief, and he loves it. He's daring and audacious and he loves robbing people. Now, he only robs the corrupt and/or rich. In fact, his first mark was a man who'd been cheating his mother.
Now, despite being a total thief, Lupin has morals and ethics. He refuses to murder people (in fact, a murder clues the police that it isn't him because they know he's not a killer). He values his allies and will save them whenever he can. And above all else? Lupin loves his children. He provides for them in secret, but he cannot tell them he's their father for fear of drawing them into his life, someone that causes him a lot of pain. So yeah, pass.
Conclusion?
THE example of western lit. Lupin is automatic yes, the pinnacle of the Gentleman Thief who defined the archetype. And in the anime Lupin III? He's the titular Lupin's grandfather.
Goku Black
Arsene Lupin
Depeding on how things go I might ep his apprentinces, the Lupinrangers of Kaitou Sentai Lupinranger VS Keisatsu Sentai Patranger later.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Formal yeah for Lupin.
to Lupin.
Yeah I also looked at South Park and got the same problem.
Aside from Cartman being way too smug, racist, and all around evil to count, other villains are considered are either too evil or their actions are done for the sake of the punchline, the plot whims, and the stupidity of the people rather than actual cunning strategy from the villains themselves.
The closest I can find to counting as a MB are Lennart, Leslie Meyers, and Mitch Connor. However Lennart was voted down for being too immature and evil, Leslie didn't really have much characterization other than a jukebox for the ads, and Mitch Connor well... he was a hand puppet that Cartman created so thats already out.
However, I did reserve the 22nd season to see if a seasonal Arc Villain might show up and end up qualify since the recents season have become more story driven.
Though I'm glad you found some villains from The Simpsons that qualified PolarPhantom
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 12th 2018 at 12:13:46 AM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Easy yes to Lupin
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
I'm Sad Frogerson.
Hello everyone, it's time for me to do another effort post. This one's a bit of a doozy, being the Big Bad of Spider-Man: The Animated Series. This candidate has appeared in roughly half of the series, with about 35 episodes worth of material to go over. Needles to say, this is going to be a long one. That's why I decided to make sure the recap of his crime are put in folders organized by season. I wanted to be thorough with this, but didn't want to cause the page become exceedingly long. Just keep in mind there are a few episodes I skipped over because they were basically glorified cameos. Without further to do, let's talk about the big man:
Who is He and What Does He Do?
Wilson Fisk, the legendary Kingpin of crime, was once known as Wilson Moriarty. The son of a simple thief, Wilson was arrested while helping his father with a burglary and was offered a lighter sentence in exchange for ratting him out. He instead took the fall after his father had convinced him that "sacrifices must be made". In prison, Wilson made connections with the criminal underground and acquired the skills necessary to form his own criminal empire. After being released, Wilson hacked into the NYPD's database and deleted any information about his prior life. Taking on a new identity, Fisk quickly rose through New York’s gangs by smuggling weapons while maintaining a good public image as the head of Fisk Enterprises. To tie up any loose ends from his past life, Fisk had his men track down his elderly father and kill him, as "sacrifices must be made".
By the start of the series, Fisk was now in control of a worldwide criminal empire and had the power to seize control over any company he wanted. In his first appearance, Fisk had Norman Osborn develop a Spider-Slayer robot with Spencer Smythe in order to capture Spider-Man, who was becoming a nuisance for his criminal operations. If Norman failed to defeat Spider-Man, he would have to hand over his company over to the Kingpin. As Osborn would point out, "whatever happens, you win". During a fight between Spider-Man and the Spider-Slayer, Spencer Smythe was presumably killed in an explosion at Oscorp. Fisk approached Smythe’s son Alistair and offered him the opportunity to develop more Spider-Slayers for him so he could gain his revenge against Spider-Man.
Months later, Smythe would develop a trio of Spider-Slayers for the Kingpin and sent them after Spider-Man. When Smythe failed, he was forced to work with Fisk until he was able to destroy Spider-Man. In "The Alien Costume" three-parter, Fisk sought to get his hands on Promethium X, a radioactive isotope that astronaut John Jameson found during a space expedition. When Jameson's shuttle crashed on the Washington Bridge, Fisk hired the Rhino to recover the Promethium X from the wreckage. In order to demonstrate the element's power to potential buyers, Kingpin sent the Rhino to retrieve some control rods from a government repository.
J. Jonah Jameson would later release a press statement condemning his reporter Eddie Brock for withholding evidence about the shuttle crash. Fisk wanted to make sure nothing could be traced back to him and had Smythe create a special device for one of his contacts. He soon sent "The Shocker" to go after Brock, but Spider-Man chased after him and stole the Promethium X from Smythe. Fisk ordered them to kidnap John Jameson and force his father to arrange a meeting with Spider-Man. Jameson led Spider-Man to Smythe and he exchanged the Promethium X for John. Smythe returned the Promethium X to Fisk, but the element had rapidly decayed at that point. It had now transformed into lead and was rendered completely useless to the Kingpin's buyers, just as Spidey knew it would.
In "The Hobgoblin" two-parter, the Kingpin was made the target of an assassination attempt during the groundbreaking for the Fisk School of Criminology. Norman hired the Hobgoblin to take out Fisk in order to regain control over Oscorp, but his plan was foiled when Peter saved him from the Hobgoblin's blasts. When Hobgoblin broke into Fisk's apartment that night, he was captured and brought before Fisk in his hideout at the Empire State Building. Hobgoblin realized Fisk was the Kingpin and offered a partnership after ratting out Osborn. Kingpin took a shining to the Hobgoblin and decided to prove his loyalty by having him kidnap Norman's son Harry. Fisk contacted Norman and offered an ultimatum; either Norman hands over all of his company’s inventions to him, or he'll never see Harry again.
Unfortunately, Fisk made one mistake; he didn't pay the Hobgoblin on time. After learning that the Hobgoblin had gone back to Osborn, Fisk ordered his guards to execute him for his disloyalty. Using the new glider he got from Oscorp, Hobgoblin took over the Kingpin’s hideout and chased Fisk and his men away. With the Hobgoblin now in control of his base, Kingpin met with Osborn and suggested they launch a sneak attack using an escape tunnel that led to his hideout. Norman had Spider-Man chase the Hobgoblin off and save his son, allowing Fisk to reclaim his headquarters. To ensure his base would remain a secret, Fisk blew up the escape tunnel and prevented Spider-Man from learning where his hideout was located.
In the "Insidious Six" two-parter, Silvermane and the other crime lords working for the Kingpin began to doubt his leadership because of Spider-Man's continued interference. To rid himself of Spider-Man, Fisk broke out several of his villains from prison and convinced them to form the Insidious Six. He had the Chameleon disguise himself as Spider-Man and led the rest of the Six on a series of heists across the city in order to lure Spidey out. Eventually, the Insidious Six captured and unmasked Spider-Man, while Fisk broadcasted the footage to Silvermane. Because Peter had temporarily lost his powers before the fight, they believed he wasn’t the real Spider-Man. Silvermane was unimpressed with Kingpin's results and planned a hostile takeover of his empire.
Launching a preemptive strike, Fisk had the Insidious Six kidnap Silvermane, while the Chameleon stayed behind to take his place. After Chameleon called off the attack against him, Fisk dangled Silvermane from his helicopter so he could witness the Insidious Six defeating Spider-Man personally. Spider-Man saved Silvermane and managed to defeat the Six by turning them against each other. With the Insidious Six cutting their losses and Silvermane now planning a full-scale war against him, Fisk remained remarkably calm and claimed that this was only a temporary setback.
In the "Tablet of Time" two-parter, Fisk became interested in the titular tablet, as it was said to grant the secret of eternal youth. He was more interested on selling it for a handsome profit, unaware that Silvermane was also seeking it to restore his youth. After Silvermane fired his henchman Hammerhead for failing to retrieve the Tablet, Hammerhead broke into Fisk’s mansion in the hopes of offering his services to the Kingpin. Fisk restrained Hammerhead and threatened to turn him back over to his old boss if he were to fail him. He had Smythe use a Spider-Slayer to steal the Tablet and once it became unstable, Fisk sent the Spider-Slayer out again to kidnap Doctor Curt Connors to study it. When Conners turned into the Lizard during Smythe’s attack, Fisk ordered him to capture Curt's wife instead and hold her hostage for Connors.
At the same time, Silvermane had sent Tombstone to kidnap Fisk's wife Vanessa and held her hostage in exchange for the Tablet of Time. After Tombstone captured Connors, Hammerhead managed to kidnap Silvermane's daughter Alisha. With all the pieces in place, Silvermane and Kingpin arranged for a trade in their hostages. Of course, Fisk double-crossed Silvermane and tried to take Curt and Alisha back along with Vanessa. He was only able to get his wife back in the chaos that ensued, Alisha escaping with Curt and Spider-Man. Smythe was able to track Spider-Man's location for the Kingpin by reverse-engineering a Spider-Tracer that was left on his robot. Fisk sent a Spider-Slayer and Hammerhead to retrieve the Tablet, which they managed to accomplish before Silvermane’s entire base blew up. However, Vanessa decided to leave Fisk because of how much he valued being the Kingpin over being a loving husband. With his heart broken, Fisk ordered Hammerhead to destroy the Tablet so he wouldn’t be reminded of what he had lost to obtain it.
In "Enter the Green Goblin", Fisk and Oscorp's shareholders threatened to kick Norman off the board of directors due to the amount of pollution produced at his factory. In truth, this waste was produced because Fisk was ordering Norman to create a gas that would enhance one's strength and durability. After Norman seemingly perished in a chemical fire, the Kingpin secretly continued the production of the gas while the public’s attention was diverted away from the pollution controversy. However, Norman hadn’t really died as the gas had transformed him into the Green Goblin. He now wanted revenge against those who destroyed "Osborn" and kidnapped the remaining board of directors on Oscorp, including Fisk. Spider-Man tracked the Goblin to an underwater facility and freed his hostages, sending them in a submarine to safety. As the two fought, Fisk used the submarine to blow up the base, claiming the world needed be rid of "both those maniacs". Norman was saved by Spider-Man and decided to shut down all production on Oscorp’s chemical weapons, which Fisk allowed solely to restore the company’s public image.
In "The Man Without Fear" two-parter, Fisk decided to finally repay Peter for saving him from the Hobgoblin. He offered Peter the opportunity to work at Fisktronics under the employment of his son Richard. Little did Peter know that Richard was planning to frame him for his father’s crime of selling blueprints of military hardware to foreign nations. As Spider-Man and Daredevil worked to clear Peter’s name, Fisk sent his men to bomb the Fisktronics building to cover his tracks. While Spidey was able to find a disk that proved his innocence, Fisk set up an ambush to capture Peter at a hospital that Aunt May was sent to.
Fisk sent the Chameleon to spy on Aunt May and he kidnapped Peter and Mary-Jane upon learning that Matt Murdoch had the disk. Fisk also planted a mole at the NYPD to handle the Parker investigation, and she was able to retrieve the disk from Murdoch. Detective Lee was able to track the mole to Richard’s mansion, and the Chameleon fled to the Kingpin's hideout with the disk during the fight. Spider-Man and Daredevil followed suit, and confronted Fisk face-to-face. Learning that his son was now under arrest, Fisk proved to be a capable fighter as he took on Spider-Man and Daredevil. Fisk managed to give the two the slip by changing places with the Chameleon, but he lost the disk in the process. When Richard was offered leniency for naming his accomplices, he kept silent after his father told him "sacrifices must be made". Fisk got away scot-free, but realized it was only a matter of time before Richard followed in his footsteps.
In "The Ultimate Slayer", Smythe began to fear for his life because it was his plan to frame Peter that resulted in Richard being arrested. Smythe contacted Spider-Man to offer proof that Fisk was the Kingpin, but he quickly found out about his attempted betrayal. With the help of geneticist Herbert Landon, Fisk subjected Smythe to a procedure that mutated him into a biological Spider-Slayer. Although initially subservient to the Kingpin, Smythe's memories of his father sent him to go after Norman for revenge. Fisk sent his men to recapture Smythe, taking Norman, Harry, and Mary-Jane along as stowaways. Fisk explained the situation to Norman and revealed that Spencer wasn’t really dead. After the explosion at Oscorp, he had placed Spencer in cryogenic suspension and lied to Alistair about his death in order to gain his loyalty. Spider-Man overheard their conversation and revealed to Smythe about his father's whereabouts. Smythe turned against Fisk and destroyed his base until he recovered his father, leaving the Kingpin to temporarily abandon his hideout.
In "The Spot", Fisk tracked Doctor Jonathon Ohnn, a former scientist of Stark Industries who was fired after his Time Dilation Accelerator was deemed too dangerous. Fisk gave him the funds to continue work on the Accelerator and intended to use its power to eliminate any threat to his criminal organization. During an experiment, Ohnn was sucked into one of the portals and gained the ability to control the others that had spread across the city. Going behind Fisk’s back, "The Spot" used his new powers to commit a series of thefts to fund his research independently. Ohnn's partner Doctor Silvia alerted Fisk to the Spot’s powers, and he decided to "terminate his contract" with the Kingpin. Fisk managed to gain the upper-hand by holding Silvia hostage and threatened to kill her if Ohnn did not follow his orders. He sent the Spot after Spider-Man, but they teamed-up to rescue Silvia from the Kingpin's clutches. During the fight, a portal over New York grew unstable and threatened to destroy the world. Fisk offered Spider-Man and the Spot one of his jets to destroy the portal, as "there is no profit to be made in the destruction of the world". Spot sacrificed himself to stop the portal, but his Time Dilation Accelerator eventually landed in less scrupulous hands...
In "Goblin War!", the Hobgoblin got his hands on the Time Dilation Accelerator and used it to commit a series of robberies across the city. When the Accelerator started losing energy, the Hobgoblin barged into the Kingpin's layer to offer an alliance in exchange for a steady power supply. Fisk pretended to go along with his scheme to rob the Federal Reserve, but secretly planned to retrieve the Accelerator for himself. He confronted Norman and demanded to know the true identity of the Hobgoblin, threatening Harry's life to get Osborn to comply. While the stress turned Norman back into the Green Goblin, Spider-Man foiled Kingpin and Hobgoblin's plan to rob the reserve. The Goblin attacked the Kingpin's base and chased away the Hobgoblin, leaving Fisk without the Accelerator once again.
In "Guilty", Fisk helped his son to frame Robbie Robertson in order to earn the favor of his cellmate Tombstone, who harbored a grudge against him. Fisk had his men drug and arm Robbie with a remote-controlled weapon, and dressed him up as the mastermind behind a cargo theft. Thanks to testimonials from the Kingpin's men, he was successfully convicted. Fisk then hacked into the NYPD's database and transferred Robbie to Rooker's Island, where Richard and Tombstone were being held. Fisk sent assassins after J. Jonah Jameson as he was trying to uncover proof that Robbie was innocent. Luckily, Spider-Man was able to save Jameson and helped clear Robbie’s name before Tombstone got to him.
In "The Black Cat" two-parter, the Kingpin abducted Doctor Octopus to help him break into the SHIELD Helicarrier. Before being placed into SHIELD custody, Fisk and Landon infused the Chameleon with cybernetic enhancements that would allow him to broadcast his location to them. Fisk learned SHIELD had also imprisoned John Hardesky, a notorious thief who happened to have a Photographic Memory. John was on the Helicarrier because he was the only person alive who knew the formula to the super-soldier serum that created Captain America. Fisk had his men attack the SHIELD Helicarrier, distracting them long enough for the Chameleon to deliver Hardesky to the Kingpin. In order to obtain the super-soldier formula, Fisk sent Doc Ock to kidnap Hardesky’s daughter Felicia and promised her safety in return for his cooperation.
Using Felica as a guinea pig, Fisk and Landon were able to successfully recreate the super-soldier formula by turning her into "The Black Cat". Fisk continued to hold Felicia and her father hostage so he could properly monitor the serum's effects before disposing the two of them. Hardesky helped Felicia escape and she teamed up with Spider-Man to take down the Kingpin's scheme. Sneaking back into Fisk’s hideout, the two distracted his men by allowing themselves to be captured, with Spider-Man disguising himself as Hardesky. As such, no one was around to stop the genuine article from deleting all vital data about the formula from the Kingpin's computers. Fisk figured out Spider-Man’s deception, but by then it was too late to recover the formula as SHIELD arrived to take Hardesky back into their custody.
In "The Prowler", Fisk hired a lawyer to overturn the conviction of Hobie Brown; a street thief who helped saved Richard's life when they were both in prison. Fisk granted Hobie's desire to have more power by offering a fusion reactor suit that would give him superpowers. After being promised their deal had no strings attached, Brown overthrew his old crime boss Iceberg as "The Prowler". Hobie's suit started shorting out, and Fisk arrived via hologram to explain the situation. The suit only had a limited charge, so Hobie had to come to him to prevent its continuous electric shocks. Iceberg was one of the Kingpin's underlings and Fisk was looking for a way to take him out after he became difficult to reign in. Assuring Brown that "the best puppeteers don’t use strings", Fisk warned him the suit would detonate if he tried removing it on his own. The Prowler turned to Spider-Man for help and the two launched an attack on the Kingpin’s base to remove the self-destruct device. Fisk was almost able to have his men execute the two, but Prowler threatened to use the removed device to blow up the entire building. Kingpin was forced to let the two leave, their mission accomplished.
In "The Wedding", Fisk decided to properly repay Peter for saving him from the Hobgoblin by offering to pay for his wedding to Mary-Jane. The fact this also happened to give him good publicity in the rival newspaper he recently bought was a total coincidence. Jameson was pissed that Fisk was using one of his employees for a PR stunt. This led to a very one-sided competition over who could throw the more lavish wedding. Needless to say, Fisk won. Harry, who had taken his father's place as the Green Goblin, crashed the wedding with the help of Smythe and his Spider-Slayers. Fisk reactivated a Spider-Slayer Smythe had left behind back at his hideout and used it to help Spider-Man take care of the unwanted wedding guests.
Fisk's last hurrah in the series would come in the five-part "Six Forgotten Warriors" saga. Fisk reassembled the Insidious Six to track down after the kidnapping of World War II-era scientist, Dr. Groitzig. He knew the location of a doomsday device the Red Skull had built at the end of the War, and the Kingpin wanted to get his hands on it. After sending the Insidious Six to break out the Chameleon from SHIELD custody again, Fisk joined them to locate Groitzig in Moscow. They were able to retrieve a box that contained the secret identities of the Six American Heroes, who guarded the keys that activated the doomsday device. Spider-Man was brought to the Kingpin and before he could be unmasked, Fisk's entire hideout was filled with knock-out gas. Silver Sable captured everyone inside the base for her employer Rheinholt Schmidt, Moscow's chief of police and the son of the Red Skull.
Fisk was informed that one of his men was working for Rheinholt the entire time. This enraged him to the point where he busted out of his restraints through brute strength alone. Fisk subdued Schmidt and revealed his true identity after freeing the Insidious Six and restraining Silver Sable's forces. Fisk fought Schmidt and retrieved the box, but was forced to flee when Rheinholt activated his hideout's self-destruct device. With the locations of the keys discovered, Kingpin sent the Insidious Six to obtain them after attempting to figure out who the traitor was among them.
Fisk got a hold of two of the keys by threatening to throw Robbie from a helicopter and dropped him to distract Spider-Man as he escaped. The Kingpin and the Insidious Six found the doomsday device beneath a condemned apartment complex guarded by the Thunderer, one of the Six American Warriors. The Insidious Six defeated Spider-Man and the Six Warriors, as Fisk finally got his hands on the last key. Once they used the keys, the Chameleon was revealed to be the traitor as he also happened to be the Red Skull’s stepson. Subduing Fisk and the others, Chameleon and Rheinholt brought their father back from the alternate dimension he was trapped in. Skull activated the base's robot guards to finish off his prisoners, but Captain America was also freed from the dimension and attacked.
Fisk and the others were freed during the fight, and he joined the Insidious Six in attacking the Red Skull's robots. He even managed to topple one over all by himself. Before he could punish the Chameleon for his treachery, Skull used the doomsday device to give Rheinholt the power over electricity. Fisk tried to take on “Electro” as he was now called, but this ended about as well as you’d expect. In his last appearance in the series, Fisk is seen being hauled away in ambulance with the implication that he’ll finally have to answer for his crimes.
Is He Charming, Charismatic, and Good on His Feet?
Fisk is the mastermind behind the entire series. If there's an evil scheme being concocted, there's a good chance that the Kingpin is behind it. Fisk has the entire criminal underworld under his thumb, and knows how to manipulate those who try to stand up to him. Fisk's resources are immense and he's not afraid of using whatever he has to please those who work for him. But he is not overly generous, as he knows just how much to reign in to make sure those under his employ stay dependent on him.
Fisk has a great public image and very few actually suspect that he's the Kingpin. It takes Spider-Man until halfway through the series before he realizes Fisk and the Kingpin are one in the same. From public ceremonies to funding charities, Fisk cares a great deal about his image, especially if he can benefit from it in anyway.
While there is the occasional situation where Fisk is outsmarted or loses his temper, he always regains his composure by his next appearance. Even if so many of his schemes don't pan out, ultimately it doesn't matter much to him. He's still the head of a worldwide criminal empire and is no closer to getting his comeuppance as the start of the series. It's implied that Fisk might face consequences for his crimes at the end of the series, but it's not made abundantly clear. He has lawyers, police officers, and even members of the military on his payroll. If anyone has the influence to get whatever he wants, it's the Kingpin.
Is He a Bastard? Too Much of Bastard?
Fisk is the Big Bad. He's responsible for creating many of Spidey's villains and launches attacks against both government and public sectors. His go to tactic is to threaten the lives of people's loved ones to get them to comply and has no qualms about killing them when they have outlived their purpose. That said, he's a very sophisticated and eloquent man who values those who are useful to him. Fisk loved Vanessa dearly and was heartbroken that his criminal ways ultimately drove her away. And while he did let his son take the fall for his crimes, Fisk knew he crossed the line and tries his hardest to make amends for Richard. He even seems to be legitimately grateful that Peter saved his life from the Hobgoblin, even if he wasn't afraid to let him be used as a scapegoat.
Competition?
Not that many people can outsmart the Kingpin. Spider-Man can foil his individual crimes, but he's powerless to put a real dent in his operations. Fisk ultimately outlasted his rival Silvermane, who attempts to restore his youth turned him into a baby. There are the occasional henchmen he's brought on board who get the better of him, like the Hobgoblin or the Chameleon. But Fisk is the one who gets the last laugh in these situations, either by regaining his resources or showing those who betrayed him why they should never double-cross the Kingpin.
Verdict?
I said so much about the guy, so . Fisk is smart, charming, and is always one step ahead of everyone else. Even when he loses, it's never enough to put a dent in his criminal empire. Very few can touch him, and even fewer bother to try.
I'll be back with one more effort post from Spider-Man: The Animated Series, which will thankfully be a lot shorter this time around.
Edited by chasemaddigan on Aug 12th 2018 at 7:00:16 AM
Kingpin.
Heck yeah there. Was waiting for that.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
to Kingpin.
to the King to the Pin
Love him being enough of a badass to warrant separate files for his deeds in various seasons ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Yes there!
for Kingpin.
Lupin and Kingpin.
To be a Master
Lupin and an absolute YES to Kingpin. I would have given him an EP myself eventually and talked to miraculous about how easy a keep he is.
Hell, just this video would be enough to show everyone why he keeps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oq8kPo3tyGY
No EP necessary.
Still waiting on Dr Doom from animated Fantastic 4 and some of the other 90s Marvel cartoons, including Spider Man itself when he turns the Beyonder's test to find Spideys capable of beating Spider Carnage against him and steals his powers. Unless something really dumb happened that I missed or forgot, I can't imagine him not keeping. Maybe he got a bit too smug? I dunno.
I'm gonna be gone again until Friday, so here's my Simpsons write ups (weird writing that):
- The Simpsons: Springfield has many citizens and many villains – but despite so much competition the following still manage to leave their mark of devious charm.
- Hank Scorpio is the president of the Globex Corporation whose passions include his employees’ wellbeing, fun runs and world domination. Threatening the UN with a Doomsday device, Scorpio holds the world ransom while at the same time becoming friends with new hire Homer Simpson, actually managing to make Homer productive. Executing the escaping Mr Bont after Homer tackles the agent and successfully repelling an attack on his lair, Scorpio amiably parts with Homer when the latter decides to return to Springfield for the sake of his family. Conquering the East Coast, Scorpio gives Homer the Denver Broncos as a farewell gift and assures him they will always be friends. Emulating the best aspects of the classic Bond villains he parodies, Scorpio cares just as much – if not more – about his employees’ happiness as he does about conquering the world. The height of Affably Evil and perhaps the show’s most successful villain, Hank Scorpio is a beloved character years after his single episode.
- Molloy, the Springfield Cat Burglar, enacted a crime spree across the town. When Homer, head of the new Neighbourhood Watch, was interviewed by Kent Brockman, Molloy phoned in to taunt Homer that he would steal the Springfield Museum’s Zirconia. Molloy succeeds despite Homer’s efforts. When arrested, Molloy gracefully returns all his stolen goods before being put in jail, where he tells Homer and Chief Wiggum about where he hid all his stolen loot, leading to the whole town hunting for it. When the location Molloy described is found, all that is present is a note saying Molloy lied and used the time they spent searching to escape. An archetypical Gentleman Thief, Molloy remains memorable despite his only appearance and relatively humble goals.
Edited by PolarPhantom on Aug 12th 2018 at 1:18:09 PM
Alright, it is time for what is for now my most complicated candidate. The dude may be declined by you guys since the true nature of him is not revealed until the end of the film, but it is so awesome that I feel that I have to post it.
Let's check out The Usual Suspects.
By the way, mother of all Walking Spoilers here, but you guys probably all know the twist anyway, so what the hell.
Recap of the movie.
The film follows the aftermath of a ship attack and explosion carried out by four criminals: Dean Keaton, Roger "Verbal" Kint, Michael McManus, and Todd Hockney. Twenty seven people were left dead, and only Verbal and a mobster working on the ship survived the incident. The story is told in flashbacks as Verbal recounts to the police the events that led up the incident, where he and the others were strong armed by a mysterious Turkish crime lord only known as Keyser Söze into attacking the drug dealers on the ship. As the story goes on and gets more complex, the investigator Dave Kujan can only conclude that Keaton is Keyser Söze, and the film leans that way.
Who is Keyser Söze?
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
Turns out Keyser Söze is not Keaton but Verbal Kint himself. Söze played the role of a patsy with cerebral palsy in order put more suspicion on Keaton than himself. This is not revealed until the final scene in the film and is such a great plot twist.
Keyser Söze has kept himself such a secret that most people do not know he exists, and those who do never see him except for his assistant. No one knew that he was living as Kint. There are many legends about him, and one that Kint himself tells involves him finding his family taken hostage, murdering his family and the criminals taking them hostage except for one to be a messenger, and killing everyone related to that gang. Since Söze himself told this tale, it's truth is unknown.
Kint, Keaton, the other two, and a fifth man Fred Fenster pulled off a scheme that exposed many corrupt New York cops. After that, Söze wrapped up the other four into his scheme to pull a hit on a rival drug gang in order to kill one of their prisoners, who apparently knew his true identity. The reasoning for the hit was to apparently murder a man who knew Fenster ended up running out on them, so Söze murdered him to keep the others in line.
So the attack went forward, the four attacking and slaughtering the gang on the boat. Söze then murdered McManus and Hockney before shooting Keaton. The two held a polite conversation before Söze killed Keaton and proceeded to set the boat on fire. Only Söze and one of the gangsters survived. Söze also ordered the death of Keaton's girfriend, Edie Finneran, who was the lawyer to the aforementioned prisoner, further putting blame on Keaton.
Kint remained at the scene and was arrested, playing the role of the disabled patsy. He was then interviewed by Dave Kujan, and in that office, Kint spun an enormous fake story based on things that he saw on the bulletin board in Kujan's office. As the details about Söze's involvement were revealed from the gangster, Kint spun those details into his story. He told the story in a way that led Kujan to believe that Keaton was Keyser Söze, and that the purpose of the mission was to eliminate anyone who knew about Söze's true identity. In the end, he got out on bail, and left the police station.
Then Kujan looked at the board and realized that the entire story was a lie. He ran after him as the description of Keyser Söze from the gangster came out resembling Kint. Kint himself gradually turned his limp into a confident stride, before entering the car driven by his assitent. He then lit a smoke, as he was driven away.
"And just like that, he's gone."
Is he charismatic? Charming? Thinks on his feet?
This guy has been living a double life for quite some time, and pulls it off extremely well.
Okay, I know his true personality is barely seen in the film, but the brief times we do see it, there is some magnificence in it. He is polite in his conversation with Keaton before murdering him. And the way he moves and acts shows some elegance and class. And of course, he's really good at fooling people, including the audience. But again, he doesn't get much of an opportunity to show that side, so that may act against him
As for smarts, he's at the top. The film is mostly just the guy fucking with the police until he gets his bail. By the time they realize the truth, Söze has escaped. It is freaking amazing just how much he plays everything towards the direction he wants it to go. Keyser Söze wins and gets away with everything while making fools out of the police.
Is he a bastard?
Twenty seven people dead? Hell yes he's a bastard. He's a crime lord who may or may not have a brutal reputation. Who knows, since he made up everything. But he has killed people, we know that, and is ruthless in getting what he wants. But he knows when to not rush and instead play, which keeps him out of prison at the end of the film.
Is he actually Keyser Söze?
It's rather ambiguous whether or not Verbal Kint actually is Keyser Söze. But for the purposes of the film, yes he is. Kint is the one leading the attack on the boat, and the one the gangster identifies as Söze, so regardless whether or not he actually is the crime lord, Kint still functions as him as the movie presents it. So as far as the film itself is concerned, Kint is Söze. Director Bryan Singer agrees with that.
Verdict?
I would vote unless you think there is not enough personality. But he is very impressive in manipulating the audience.
Edited by SatoshiBakura on Aug 12th 2018 at 10:04:46 AM
A definite yes.
The Unknown Unknown
Long time no see, huh, fam?
EDIT: Yes to Keyser btw.
What's the work?
Final Fantasy XIII-2 is the sequel to Final Fantasy XIII. The events of the game started off with a Happy Ending Override — where Lightning and her crew crystallized Cocoon and fulfilled their Focus as l'Cie, it turns out Etro's divine intervention provide "the chaos" to the world, and Lightning was swallowed by it. The kicker? Everybody but her younger sister, Serah Farron, seems convinced Lightning is gone in a case of mass amnesia.
In any case, civilization has moved on to Gran Pulse following the crystallization of Cocoon. Serah lives in New Bodhum with many citizens including the old band of N.O.R.A. Serah's financee, Snow Villiers, set out to find out Lightning, convinced Serah isn't lying, but it's been a while since he's returned.
A monster attack occurs at New Bodhum, and with it, a mysterious young man named Noel Kriess seeks out Serah and tells her about Lightning. Convinced, Serah sets out on an adventure with Noel to find her sister and see what's disrupting the timelines of her universe.
Who is the candidate? The character’s actions?
The Big Bad of the game, Caius Ballard. Through Story Breadcrumbs, we learned Caius is a former l'Cie before he was given Etro's heart. In addition, Caius is a member of the Farseers, a tribe on Gran Pulse who worships the goddess Etro. They are led by the seeress, Yeul, who uses the Eyes of Etro to see into the timelines and thus the future. Caius's duty is to be the seeress's "Guardian." And what a Guardian he was. His exploits grew inro Paddra legend, so much so even Fang from the previous has to warn Serah and Noel from what she heard. One day, his skill almost failed him. A formidable opponent An enemy almost assassinated Yeul, but said opponent gave his life to avert that fate.
Caius honored the fallen warrior by accepting his surname "Ballard." Moved by Caius's conviction, Etro endowed him with her Heart so he could better protect the seeress as a Guardian. What did this do? It gave Caius the power of immortality and even greater strength. Although given as an act and reward of benevolence, Caius would come to see his eternal life as a curse due to the madness, pain, and suffering he would have to endure, have to see occur around him. His people scattered from civil war (during his time he trains the aforementioned Noel), and every Yeul dies and reincarnates. Again, and again, and again...
Slowly devolving into a traumatized wreck, Caius seeks to save Yeul from the cycle, to create an existence free of time's cruel passage. Thus, he hatches his plan: open the Door of Souls (aka Etro's Gate) to cause a Time Crash.
His first attempt? Head straight to Valhalla, Etro's residence, to slay the goddess herself. The problem? Lightning was chosen to be Etro's guardian. He discovers he cannot overcome her and further attempts are useless. So, he sets about a second method: crash Hope's New Cocoon into the old one and thereby murder the entire human race in one fell swoop, much like Barthandelus's plan in the original game. This is where Lightning entrusts Noel, leading to the beginning of the game.
The rest of the game is sort of non-chronological as Serah and Noel travel time via the Historia Crux and Time Gates. It essentially gives context to the relationship and role of Caius, Noel, and Yeul (like I just did). In fact, after their first encounter with Caius in 200 AF Oeba, we don't see the real Caius until the Void Beyond, an unstable world of chaos. Here, he personally defeats both Noel and Serah separately and places them in dream worlds to keep them out of the way. But, they overcome the illusion and learn his real plan.
Serah and Noel rush to Academia where the chaos of Valhalla is rapidly seeping into the mortal realm. Aided by Hope Estheim, Sazh Katzroy, and troops of Academia, Serah and Noel chase after Caius into the sky on an airship and defeat him as Chaos Bahamut. Caius returns to human form and admits he is impressed by Serah's determination to change the future even if it means her death due to being a seeress like Yeul. Caius remarks Noel would have made a worthy Guardian, and says everything he ever did was for Yeul. Believing the Yeuls being born only to die young is meaningless and cruel, Caius reaffirms he will stop at nothing to free them, even if reality itself must be destroyed to achieve it. He transforms into Chaos Bahamut and flies into a wormhole that opens in the sky.
In this wormhole is where Serah and Noel confront Caius for a final time in Valhalla. His second contingency thwarted by the heroes, Caius falls back on his final gambit: have a fellow Guardian (read: Noel) kill Etro's Heart of Chaos beating in his chest. A long-winded and epic Final Battle occurs, which sees Caius defeated, but he manages to throw himself onto Noel's dagger in the end, killing himself.
Did I mention nobody knew about that third plan of his?
As a result, everyone is back in sunny Academia celebrating victory as Bhunizelve (the New Coccoon) is erected, thinking they won. On cue, Serah's Eyes of Etros activate and kill her. Immediately, with Etro's death from having her heart stabbed, the Door of Souls open wide and the chaos of Valhalla invades the mortal world.
In the secret ending, this is given more context by none other than a revived Caius as he sits upon Etro's throne in the Void Beyond. Though the Heart of Chaos was destroyed, Caius has obtained a new form of immortality as he became one with the chaos itself since the many incarnations of Yeul desired his continued existence.
Satisfied with himself, he commences the end of time, setting the stage for the third installment of the trilogy.
Charming? Charismatic? Intelligent?
First off, In-Universe, Caius is held as a legendary figure in Paddra, known as "Caius of the Ballards." Yeul cherished his role as Guardian and Noel looked up to him, hoping to become as powerful of a Guardian as him. All throughout the game, Caius compliments people like Lightning and Serah for their conviction and fighting ability, expresses a sense of honor (such as respecting the man who sacrificed himself for Yeul and Chaos), and generally comes across as Affably Evil. Caius also sports a sympathetic goal, having experienced firsthand that, just because he is immortal (immortality that, mind, was god-given and therefore not of his choice), doesn't mean everyone else is. He wants to save countless billions of Yeuls (and everyone else, though that's very much a secondary concern) so that they might live forever. You know you're an impressive man when a damn goddess awards you with something special.
Caius is also an extremely capable planner. The whole conflict stems from an overarching goal of destroying time itself with three ways to reach it: kill Etro directly, then cause an untold amount of death, OR have Noel kill him. He always appears to be one step ahead of the heroes and always directly confronts with all his strength. There's also an understated example of his intelligence. Alyssa Zaidelle, a member of the Academy and righthand woman of Hope, will potentially cease to exist if the timeline is corrected. Caius utilizes her fear to give Serah and Noel a booby-trapped artifact (things that let them use the Time Gates in the first place), which is how they got into the Void Beyond in the first place. So, you can tack on Manipulative Bastard to his track record.
And he's voiced by Liam O'Brian. Just saying.
Bastard? Too much?
His guiding philosophy is creating a world without death and pain. The problem is that there's plenty of room for debate on whether what he's creating will truly be a utopia, and he refuses to listen to any of it. Serah outright asks if he's willing to endanger countless lives just for his goals, and he unhesitatingly says 'Yes.' Dropping New Coccoon, forcing Serah and Noel into dream worlds, and taking advantage of Alyssa's very real fear were probably his most heinous deeds in the game.
That said, Caius is still a Noble Demon. He's never sadistic nor goes out of his way to shed unnecessary blood (Yes, the repeat of Dysley's plan was still a necessary evil), and everything he does is to save the one person most precious to him.
Competition?
Caius is famous in the Final Fantasy series for being the one Big Bad to actually win. The game ends on a Downer Ending precisely because his plan worked and there's no undoing what went wrong like in VI. He was intelligent, tenacious, and determined enough to actually kill Etro and destroy time itself.
Conclusion?
A thousand yes's.
(Side note: I can't comment on his appearance in Lightning Returns because I haven't beaten the game yet. I do know it's minor enough not to affect what he does here.)
Rufus is next.
Edited by erazor0707 on Aug 12th 2018 at 6:29:59 AM
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Yes to both and welcome back erazor
Caius and Soze
To Caius and Soze
I have to note two things on Caius. I'll preface I really, really dislike XIII-2, so perhaps I'm biased, but there are two things of note with him.
First, Caius isn't a very good planner. His goal, as noted, is to either destroy the New Coccoon, or to kill Etro by having Noel kill him. But aside from giving Alyssa the booby-trapped artefact, he never shows any actual planning to make this happen — he lets Serah and Noel come to him in Academia 500/Valhalla 500, where they are told he will enact his attempt to destroy the New Coccoon, they fight him, they beat him. There is no complex scheme Caius pulls off to make this happen, he just has to wait for Serah and Noel to catch up to him, and they get there because Lightning directly tells them where and when Caius will make his move and opens a time gate for them. A lot happens in XIII-2 but is seemingly not related to Caius' plan — we only have All There in the Manual to hint that Caius was behind some things, but it isn't explained how he is, or how these seemingly unrelated events helped him. As far as being a quick-thinking schemer who can improvise, Caius has one Xanatos Gambit he's relying on; he never plays Xanatos Speed Chess and isn't even really enough of a plotter to be The Chessmaster.
Second, Caius is a Base-Breaking Character that a lot of people argue is a Villain Sue, and IMHO, he qualifies. The OP for this thread says "A Villain Sue is seen as being loved too much by the plot and things just "go their way" for the audience to respect it being their genuine characteristics that bring them success", and in terms of MB qualification, that is definitely Caius.
He is somehow able to communicate with his past selves in order to coordinate their efforts, but we don't know how, just that being in Valhalla lets him do this. He cannot travel through time, but his plans somehow distort the time stream so much that he can enter the Academia 500 period from Valhalla, which is blatant Timey-Wimey Ball shennanigans. He is able to transform into his Eidolon Bahamut through a Dangerous Forbidden Technique that has never been seen before or since, and is somehow able to conjure other versions of Bahamut to aid him in the final battle. He "dies" at the end of the game but is reincarnated because he has "become one with the Chaos". All of this says to me that Caius has abilities that he has simply because the plot says he needs those abilities.
I have to ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Caius. IMO he isn't that good a planner and he's too much of a Villain Sue to be belivable as magnificent.
Edited by DrakeClawfang on Aug 12th 2018 at 12:16:20 PM
Alright so after sweeping the page history, I was never given any of the GX candidates if they were approved so they can go up next week or whenever I get them.