During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
I don’t think Littlefinger is necessary. It’s for the near call stuff and I think his pedophilic tendencies are well understood to be too gross. Remember the point of those is for authors to know what steps to take and which to avoid. I think back in the day Ambar made a good point it only really needs one “type” of MB or non-MB to cover various mitigating things.
Gotcha, kinda thought so.
Okay, but what about Palpatine are we still going to add him to the Treat with Caution, especially since someone already did a write up about him for the Treat with Caution section?
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Nook and G Rap
Here's The World Ends With You's tree with Sho Minamimoto's writeup added.
- The World Ends with You is full of cunning sarcastic schemers amongst The Reapers but these three stand out.
- Megumi Kitaniji is the true Big Bad of the game, second in power only to Joshua. Ruling the underground of Shibuya in Joshua's absence as its Conductor, Kitaniji assigns Game Masters to each week to act as his Proxy while vying for control against Joshua and seeking to give order to Shibuya through the O-Pins. Kitaniji takes non-refundable entry fees — including Neku's memories — and forces Neku to play another Game while holding Shiki as his new fee. As Neku begins the game, he takes Shiki as his entry fee knowing very well how much she meant to the boy. Kitaniji also has Joshua hunt his own friends down in an attempt to erase them. In the third week, Kitaniji brainwashes the entire town with the O-Pins and merges with Joshua to become the final threat. Even in spite of his viciousness, Kitaniji has Beat, hunt down Neku and Joshua in an attempt to erase them. Despite this he has nothing but praise for his minions and even Neku, and gracefully concedes defeat to Joshua once he's proven himself better.
- Yoshiya "Joshua" Kiryu starts the game as a helpful if obnoxious partner in Week 2. In reality, he is Shibuya's UG Composer making him the Greater-Scope Villain of the Reaper's Game. Besides handing out orders from behind the scenes he fools Neku, the game's protagonist, into believing he risked his life for Neku and defeated Neku's killer. In reality, he killed Neku to use as a Proxy to win the True Game with the game's actual Big Bad Megumi Kitaniji: the Conductor. While he may have originally planned to erase Shibuya, Neku's reliance on the people around him restored his faith in humanity, convincing all the players — even the ones who didn't make it — a second chance at life. Neku monologues in the end that while he couldn't stand Joshua, he's grateful for meeting him and he trusts him, even being unable to shoot him when Joshua offers to make him the Composer through his own death. Even in the failure of his own goals of destroying Shibuya, Joshua still managed to win in the end.
- Sho Minamimoto is the rogue Week 2 Game Master of the Reaper's Game. He starts by attempting an assassination on Joshua in the RG, which fails, but he comes out unscathed. As game master, he makes increasingly cryptic clues for his missions, which only Joshua can figure out. Then he makes a Tin Pin Slammer mission that nearly gets Neku and Joshua erased, had it not been for two other players, which Minamimoto has erased by Taboo Noise after a Level i Flare while he is forced to revive himself with a Taboo Sigil, and reveals his ultimate goal: To dethrone Joshua as the Composer, and were they on a level playing field in their second bout, he might have succeeded. Even then, his intelligence was enough that Coco, Joshua's other adversary revived him to compete in a final Reaper's Game.
Proposing a Hellsing candidate, Alexander Anderson. I recall Major got cut because he's too much of a bastard, but I think this guy can still make it.
What is the work?
The series centers around Alucard, everybody's favorite lovecraftian vampire assassin who serves the Hellsing organisation in killing other vampires. He is accompanied by his vampire fledgling Seras Victoria and his human mistress Integra Hellsing. They are up against a Nazi splinter faction called Millennium who are engineering new vampires in the hopes of waging another war against britain. I will be focusing on the manga/OVA version.
Who is Alexander Anderson and what has he done?
Father Alexander Anderson is a paladin priest and top operative of the Iscariot branch of the Vatican Church who are rivals to the Hellsing Organization. He is also The Rival to Alucard himself, with the two often clashing in battle.
He first appears being sent to North Ireland to dispatch of the Hellsing Organization who are busy hunting a vampire, believing that this is Catholic territory and Hellsing has no jurisdiction there. He beats Hellsing in slaying the vampire, then proceeds to wound Seras and engages Alucard, managing to decapitate the vampire. He then pursues Seras who is saved by Integra herself. Anderson mockingly shows honor to the Hellsing leader and proceeds to murder her bodyguards while declaring he would not back down against a "Protestant whore", but before he can kill Integra, Alucard regenerates and engages Anderson again. Lacking the tools to put him down, Anderson retreats swearing to meet them again.
Anderson next appears crashing Hellsing Manor ready to engage Alucard again, but Seras arrives as a diversion escorting some tourists through the museum. The two decide this is not the right place to fight and postpone their duel, with Anderson even showing interest in the museum himself. He later shows up again to deliver a message requesting their presence in London, but not before he and Alucard exchange blows with each other.
Anderson would return much later after the Major declares war on England and sends Millennium to invade. Anderson is sent with all the Iscariots to assist the Hellsing organization from the Millennium vampires, whereby he saves Integra Hellsing. He even tells one of his followers to back down in apprehending Integra and has her escorted back to safety. He later witnesses his Iscariot superior, Enrico Maxwell, sent to defend England from Millennium, using this opportunity to purge it of Protestant heretics so that it could be reclaimed in the name of Catholicism. This causes Anderson to turn on Maxwell, considering him to have abandoned God’s will. When Alucard’s familiars were sent to attack Maxwell but unable to penetrate his glass box, Anderson shatters the glass for them. Anderson displays sorrow as his former protege is killed, later retrieving his corpse and declaring Maxwell lived and died “a spineless coward”.
Anderson then decides it is time to put Alucard down for good, instructing his Iscariots to protect the Pope and other innocent Catholics, while wishing them farewell knowing this may very well be the end of his life. Anderson attacks Alucard, with the vampire challenging Anderson to kill him if he can and the two fight. Anderson gets overwhelmed by Alucard and his familiars, even getting his arm blown off, but still remains defiant and pushes on despite the overwhelming odds stacked against him, which gets Alucard’s respect. Anderson gets saved by a group of his Iscariot priest subordinates who sacrifice themselves to clear a path through the familiars. Anderson makes use of this opportunity given to him and reveals his final trump card, Helena's Nail. Alucard is horrified by this, begging Anderson not to turn himself into a monster and make the same mistake he did, but Anderson does not listen and declares he no longer wishes to be a man and drives the nail through his heart. Now becoming the “Monster of God” he engages Alucard with his newfound powers is able to properly hurt the vampire for the first time in a long time. Alucard finally comes close to achieving his desire to die and almost gives in, until Seras steps in and gets harmed by Anderson. Seeing his fledgling in danger, Alucard comes to his senses and remembers his desire was to die by the hands of a human and not a monster. Alucard then reaches his hand into Anderson’s chest, pulling out both the nail and Anderson’s heart and crushes it.
Anderson’s body crumbles to ash and begins falling apart. Alucard grieves his fallen rival, even shedding tear. However in his last moments before death, Anderson speaks, telling Alucard he finally understood why he became a monster, so that he would no longer have to cry and urges him not to cry now. He passes away peacefully with everyone present bowing their heads respectfully to honour the fallen paladin.
Charming? Charismatic? Magnificent?
As a paladin, Anderson is a man of honor who fights for what he believes is right, though much like everyone in Hellsing is an extremely Ax-Crazy one. He is generally very charming and polite when he speaks, though is not above throwing in insults towards his enemies at times.
As for magnificence, it speaks hugely that he is the one human who Alucard sees as a worthy equal and would have bestowed him the honour of killing him, had he not thrown his humanity away. Anderson is thoroughly dedicated to his crusade against evil, even if it means giving up his life and his humanity in offing his vampire nemesis. He comes very close to succeeding in his goal, and even when he ultimately fails, he has a Face Death with Dignity moment and garners respect from both his allies and his foes.
Too much of a bastard?
While at times presented as an Ax-Crazy killer like most of the cast, Anderson does have moments that firmly shows he has standards. Such as his turning on Maxwell after he deems his boss has crossed a line and gone too far. In addition, as much as he hates Hellsing, he is willing to put aside differences and ally with them against common enemies. Call him a hero, an antihero, or even an anti villain, Anderson never lets his bastardry outdo his magnificence.
Final verdict?
I think he has a pretty good chance.
Edited by Snowy66 on Oct 29th 2020 at 5:21:54 AM
Edited by nwotyzal on Oct 29th 2020 at 6:32:12 AM
I... can’t get behind listing him. I love Anderson but I’ve talked this one through pretty thoroughly with Ravok and Lighty. His religious intolerance can get a bit much at times, even if he’s not the raving bigot that Maxwell is and he’s neither a great planner nor manipulator. If not for the intervention of Iscariot he would have died early in his fight against Alucard for instance. He’s a boisterous, badass, cool, nigh-unstoppable bastard with great Noble Demon flourishes but not a magnificent one.
Edit: Apparently I'm confusing Scraggle and Lighty for each other... sorry lads!
Edited by 43110 on Oct 29th 2020 at 10:16:26 AM
No to Anderson.
I see, all valid points
Okay, now I’m kinda saying ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
because of the religious bashing, but I’m still keeping my original vote up because I think it’s funny
And In case it hasn’t been discussed, nobody counts as a MB in Hamilton.
Edited by nwotyzal on Oct 29th 2020 at 6:36:28 AM
Goku Black
Anderson
No to Anderson. Having seen a little bit of Hellsing, I wasn't feeling him.
I love Hellsing and it's actually got a good number of candidates who come frustratingly close: Integra is clever and ruthless but had the wool pulled over her eyes by Walter; Alucard himself—though audacious—in his melancholy, has left behind most of his skill as a commander and now seeks to just die fighting strong opponents and it shows, not to mention his rape of Rip; Walter himself schemes quite well but he's a petty brat trying to get back at Alucard; the Major himself is fucking insane...
Anderson.
Ah well, at least I got some fun out of revisting one of the coolest Hellsing characters even if he isn't magnificent enough.
Hey you did a good post and no question he’s a fantastic character pal!
Thank you!
Nay to Anderson, although I love the guy.
Yeah, nobody in Hellsing as it stands really counts. I have thought of reviewing the older anime and seeing if someone counts there (I'm mainly thinking of Integra, but if I recall she's a tad outplayed) but I find it doubtful. Also I mostly slept through the second half of that one... so yeah.
I concur. Had I not seen enough of Hellsing, i probably might have voted him up. That was a damn good effortpost.
I think it's harder for someone to count in a seinen than a Shõnen since seinen as shown by Hellsing, often have villainous protagonists who engage in rape, or bigotry.
There are exceptions, but it's easier to find a Complete Monster in a Seinen than a MB.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yeah, nobody counts in either new or old Hellsing. Everyone is either too outplayed, too scummy or smug, or engages in rape.
Edited by Klavice on Oct 29th 2020 at 8:34:21 AM
Goku Black
What do you mean...plenty of seinen works have mbs. Even a look through the index will tell you that.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Abstain on Anderson
Kool G Rap
What? Seinen have a lot of MB-s. If anything, other genres have more issues getting some
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Eh, if a work is too dark, you will have issues when all characters commit something that would disqualify them. But not all seinen are that dark
Edited by KazuyaProta on Oct 29th 2020 at 10:50:41 AM
Watch me destroying my country
Yeah a work being dark isn't non-conducive to it having an MB at all.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Yeah... That was shortsighted of me admittedly. I just figured a work that dealt with mass rape, psychopathic characters, and other dark material was unlikely to have examples.
I didn't discount exceptions, as I swear someone counts in Love is War, which is a Seinen.
Edited by Klavice on Oct 29th 2020 at 8:52:44 AM
I just asked for other opinions, I'm not really pushing too hard on him making it to the Treat With Caution list; just thought it might be useful to have him there considering he's one of the most famous schemers of the fantasy genre and he's very often referred to when it comes to Gambit Pileup and Xanatos Speed Chess, along with being wrongly cited as an MB quite a bit. It didn't really have much to do with the heated discussion about him early on either.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Oct 28th 2020 at 3:34:49 AM