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I'm pretty sure we aren't meant to sympathize with Bart in the majority of Simpsons episodes where he is in the wrong. I can think of at least one episode where his selfishness is even worse than that, but if it has to stay it needs a rewrite.
I put YMMV.The Simpsons S 10 E 8 Homer Simpsons In The Kidney Trouble on the cutlist because I think both of the items on the page are misuse. This is one of them:
This one is just complaining about Homer's actions in the episode, methinks. Not to mention the calling out part probably means that it was intentional.
Edited by PlasmaPower on Nov 27th 2019 at 3:32:56 PM
called out mean not uninteintional. Cut.
Star Wars Resistance Reborn
The first 2 are so poorly though out they’re under the wrong trope. None of them explain why/if they’re meant to be sympathetic despite this. Cut?
YMMV.Sly Cooper Thieves In Time
Fails to explain why they were meant to be sympathetic. Sly as least isn't unintentional as that's why Carmelita is pissed at him. What do we do with this?
I've never played that game so I don't know, I'd say cut it for now.
Wall of Text from YMMV.The Simpsons S 11 E 21 Its A Mad Mad Mad Mad Marge incoming:
Again, fails to explain why she was supposed to be sympathetic despite this, cut. As Simpsons is a Sadist Show, they're supposed to be unsympathetic by default, so anything that doesn't explain how they're treated as sympathetic in-work in this moment can be safely axed.
I'm at an impass here, because I think there might be an good entry here, but it doesn't seem to explain why she was meant to be seen as sympathetic.
Like maybe, it could start with "Lisa is supposed to be seen as someone who sees the good in people, since she wasn't mad at Nelson when he beat up Nelson since he misunderstood the note. However, she got more upset with Nelson over lying to her about pranking Skinner than him beating up Milhouse. The fact that she got mad at him over a intended hate-crime makes her look bad to the audience."
Edited by PlasmaPower on Nov 30th 2019 at 2:32:43 PM
This fails to explain how they were supposed to be sympathetic. Is there a better entry from the episode it came from to replace this with or should it be cut?
Also, I love how whoever wrote this called them out on their Disproportionate Retribution... only for the last paragraph to call for exactly that.
On the side note, what do you guys think about a 6 waiting period for Unintentionally Unsympathetic? It can help determine if most of the audience is unsympathetic to a character or if they belong in Base-Breaking Character. It’s also one of those reactions that can cause knee-jerk complaining.
Edited by PlasmaPower on Dec 2nd 2019 at 5:33:21 AM
First time here. So, I noticed that a lot of examples were cut because they are villains. But are sympathetic villains not a thing? I mean, it seems ridiculous to cut an example because they are a villain, because villains can be intended as sympathetic and still fail because they go way too far. Not trying to argue here, just would like some clarification as to whether a villain can count as this. Hell, there is even an entire paragraph on the main page explaining how a villain can fall into this trope.
It's still got to be proven the character was intended to be sympathetic.
A good example of an Unintentionally Unsympathetic villain from top of my head an is the In Name Only Beast Boy from The End of Ends. There, the author tries to make us pity him because apparently the whole world's turned against him and Terra dumped him, but in turn he did things like beat up Terra's friends, stole a book which made him into Count Logan, and then he destroyed planets because of his Wangst.
Oh yea, another question, how come Unintentionally Unsympathetic characters aren't scrappies by default? (unless they've been mangled in the adaptation process, then they're not scrappies) They do seem kind of interchangeable with one another.
Edited by PlasmaPower on Dec 2nd 2019 at 9:31:34 AM
They can be Base-Breaking Characters as opposed to Scrappies if some don't mind/overlook what make them UU and understands what they were meant to be. A waiting period seems less the problem than reminding that they have to be unsympathetic for different reasons than intended.
Also, I think Unintentionally Unsympathetic covers things like, say, where people don't find a villain's Freudian Excuse convincing when it was meant to be, but still like them as a villain overall.
Edited by nrjxll on Dec 3rd 2019 at 6:38:15 AM
Here's an entry under the game Simulacra that I'd like to get feedback for. Minor Spoilers:
So I was ready to remove this, since I'm pretty sure the player is meant to see him as creepy. He does creepy things like that multiple times, and if I'm remembering correctly, you can even express to other characters that you find him creepy.
On the path I took, even in his last conversation with the player, where he guilt trips you for not supporting him more, you are still given the option to treat him with disdain. But then the game guilt-trips you for not supporting him more to gain his trust, and I guess you're supposed to feel bad for him, since a Bad Thing happens to him.
My assumption is that the game is going for "Yeah, he's a creep, but he doesn't deserve this". There's some entries on the YMMV page that are more sympathetic to him, but I don't really see it. My question is, is that enough to qualify him for Unintentionally Unsympathetic. As it reads, the entry is a little ZCE-y since it doesn't specify why we're supposed to sympathize with him.
Edited by MisterApes-a-lot on Dec 6th 2019 at 4:51:57 AM
I agree. That's not enough context, if he is meant to be sympathetic.
Do we have an effortpost template for this? There is one character, or rather one event featuring a character that I want to propose.
There’s also a faction from a video game(not from the same work) I might want to propose too.
Edited by xie323 on Dec 7th 2019 at 1:23:45 AM
No EP system here. Go ahead and tell us about your character, or draft an example.
(ignore this, turns out I misinterpreted the trope so I deleted this EP)
Edited by xie323 on Dec 7th 2019 at 2:52:58 AM
Ok so here is the character I want to discuss, this is a bit different than the EP I had to delete.
Would Uther the Lightbringer from Warcraft be seen as unintentionally unsympathetic for his refusal to kill innocent but potentially plague infested civilians in Stratholme? In that scene I think you're supposed to side with Uther and see it as the start of Arthas' fall to darkness, but given the fact that as of the current era in Warcraft lore, there hasn't been a cure for the plague or an alternative that was even considered by Uther and Jaina at that time, many players come out of that feeling that Uther was excessively naieve while Arthas did what had to be done.
Edited by xie323 on Dec 8th 2019 at 9:53:27 AM
As someone who does kinda feel bad for Taylor, I can vouch for the portrayal of him as a creep who does not deserve what he goes through.
And yeah, Count Logan was EXACTLY who I was thinking of when I wrote that response. He is supposed to be the villain, but also a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds like Count Bleck (whom he is ripping off based on). Even though he is a villain, we ARE supposed to feel sorry for him. The issue is that he is not Affably Evil like Bleck, but more actively cruel and prone to Kick the Dog, his backstory feels like Wangst, and he gets Easily Forgiven.
I'm really not feeling these US/UU entries on Ymmv.The Dragon Prince (I am familiar with the series but not the fandom). They seem like they were written by someone rooting for the humans in general and the villain in particular (I apologize for the formatting. I'm on tablet and formatting and copy/pasting is a pain on it):
The reasons are numerous:
First bulletpoint on US
Second bullet point on US:
Third bullet point:
First bullet point
Second bullet point:
Fourth bullet point:
Agree? D Isagree? Over thinking it? Let this thread decide!
Speaking generally it seems like whoever wrote those entries is weirdly certain the elves/Xadia are meant to be A Lighter Shade of Gray, in a way I don't think the series actually supports.
The reason why people are given to sympathize with Humanity- and, conversely, why the Elves come across as comparatively unsympathetic- is because The Dragon Prince has some rather ambitious themes, and it handles them rather poorly. The position that the show takes towards the conflict between Xadia and the Human kingdoms is one that is broadly favorable towards Xadia, but the actual writing fails to justify this position. This creates a dissonance that lends heavily towards a sympathy for the show's ostensible villains.
The best example of this dissonance is the fact that who the heroes and villains turn out to be at the end of the latest season is a product of Moral Luck, and yet the show's writing still treats the situation as if it were a genuine, earned thematic resolution. It isn't. Both sets of characters have access to the same information, and neither of them know beforehand which of them actually has the right of it. The only reason Callum and friends are in a position to think of themselves as heroes when all is said and done is because they won the coin toss.
Edited by Gault on Dec 11th 2019 at 9:32:06 PM
So the Grey and Grey Morality ends up being Black and White Morality instead? Damn.
I don't know, one of Veiren end goal was to kill the kids so he could take over as king. And that was in season one. And one was still a kid.
Edited by WhirlRX on Dec 11th 2019 at 10:28:04 AM
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