The Broken Base cleanup thread discusses about examples in Broken Base, but this talks about examples in YMMV pages of works containing Base-Breaking Character, (despite being an Example Sectionectomy, this can still be seen in the YMMV pages of works) where the details on what is suitable is also vague.
Here is the criteria for Base-Breaking Character:
- A long-term, sustained conflict: Characters that were simply hated and loved, then had their interest evaporated away (both positive and negative) after a few months doesn't count. Characters in upcoming works also don't count.
- A vicious conflict: Factions that have little problem co-existing and doesn't mind about what the other faction likes or dislikes about the character doesn't count. If it's not particularly vicious and heated, then it would be cut or be listed as a Downplayed Trope.
- Two (or more) vocal, almost equally sized factions: A tiny Vocal Minority that doesn't shut up their pet peeve, whilst being outnumbered by more reasonable fans don't count. Nor does a Silent Majority who doesn't make a big deal with the other side count. If one of the hating factions is significantly bigger than the other, it would be classified as The Scrappy or an Ensemble Dark Horse.
- Little to no Middle ground: Scenarios where most of the fandom doesn't care about the character, don't count.
Base-Breaking Character is when half of the fandom likes a character, yet another equally sized half dislikes it. Now that happens, but the problem is, some entries aren't really contentious (thus not resulting in flame wars when someone says they "liked that character"). Also, several entries are one-sided towards the negative or the positive side describing that only side in detail, but then wrapping up with a single line saying "But the other half likes that character". A correct way would be describing it like "a split in the Fandom on who likes it or not", with details on both sides why they're liked and disliked.
Here's an example from YMMV.Undertale:
- Alphys. A lot of players find her character gimmick of constant messages and attempts to help more annoying than funny, especially on repeat playthroughs. And even though she has sympathetic reasons, the reveal that she's been experimenting on sick monsters to create the Amalgamates and manipulating the player to feel better about herself doesn't help, especially since she never directly apologizes for the latter.
While it may have annoyed players due to these reasons above, there has been a considerable amount of fanarts and comics or her, and not only that, the like-dislike situation hasn't been so contentious (compared to Sans, whom he's popular, now he sucks.)
edited 21st Feb '18 1:46:31 PM by AppleGates
also going back to this from a couple pages ago:
I noticed that in YMMV.Kingdom Hearts, sora's Base-Breaking Character entry was put in a tentative state. This was apparently because there weren't any criticisms regarding his character, making it a Zero-Context Example. Is anyone willing to provide an adequate reason for why he was listed?
Additionally, I'm actually surprised that Riku made it into this trope. He's listed as a Karma Houdini, yet he learned the hard way that Evil Is Not a Toy. This has become his case of My Greatest Failure. There's also the matter of "erasing" Roxas. This was an instance where Riku was Necessarily Evil. Ridding Roxas was needed to bring sora back to combat Organization XIII. While Roxas is his own person, sora has more bonds and connections, so bringing him back was (as much as I hate to admit it) the Lesser of Two Evils."
I agree on Riku not being base breaking and in fact argue Sora should be on the page
Lysandre, well a lot of people like his battle music and I remember Team Flare being popular in Japan.
As for Pokémon MCs that aren't Base-Breaking Character, Lillie and Gladion from the games are the Breakout Character of Sun and Moon while N is loved by everyone aside from people getting sick of fanart of him. Even PETA approves of him. And Black and Blue said trainers who weren't N or Team Plasma were vile they must have at least played the game somewhat as they make Ghetsis one of the "abusers". Speaking of Ghetsis, I notice people really hate him even being an effective villain for his abuse of N his own biological son, and being nothing more than a Hate Sink who serves as a poor man's substitute to other Evil Team leaders like Giovanni, Maxie and Archie, and Cyrus.
Edited by Klavice on Jan 25th 2022 at 3:33:01 AM
As for the anime, the only main characters that aren't currently listed as Base-Breaking Characters are Brock, Wobbufett, May, Dawn, Clemont, and Kiwae. I'm unsure if they qualify. I've seen a good amount of detractors for Brock and Clemont. And May was formerly on the list but I removed her as it seemed to focus more on the inital hate for replacing Misty. However if May (or any of the characters I've listed) have reasons beyond replacing their predaseccor to qualify I'd love to hear them.
In addtion I wonder if Giovanni (anime) should qualify given how long he was an Orcus on his Throne. Similarly the anime incarnation of Team Plasma, Team Skull, and Chairmen Rose seem to have divide on how they were adapted but Im unsure if its enough to truly qualify
Edited by Mariofan99 on Jan 26th 2022 at 9:57:17 AM
I don't keep up with the anime, but if you're trying to list every single major character under this trope you might want to revisit the criteria in the first post of this thread and consider if they really fit. Just having detractors isn't enough.
Showtime!
I think if all but six characters for a series that has been running for approx. 25 years are being listed as Base Breaking Characters, that's a sign that the criteria are being incorrectly applied
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
To clarify when it comes to the MAIN characters of the anime I only added Tracey Max, and Bonnie to the list while removing May. Meaning I only added 2 characters overall to the list. Posts from the history of Scrappy show Max at the very least was already determined to qualify as Base-Breaking (his removal from Scrappy was cited for having too many fans) but never got added to BBC for whatever reason. While I added quite a few RECURRING characters the main cast could already be considered bloated full of examples
In my expereience in the Poke fandom division and arguments between fans and detractors of any character is very severe
Edited by Mariofan99 on Jan 26th 2022 at 3:06:31 PM
So the Danganronpa franchise has a Base-Breaking Character page for the three main games, which I think is pretty accurate for the most part. My main question is about the spinoffs and anime: they don't have any characters listed on that page, but they do on their own YMMV page. The thing to do would be to move them, except I'm not sure any actually qualify? It seems to me like Zero, Killer Killer, Togami, and 3 aren't discussed all that often in the fanbase, much less have raging debates about their characters—I can't recall ever seeing, say, Yasuke being argued over, much less as fiercely as Nagito or Kokichi. Heck, I'd never even heard the name "Blue Ink" before I saw the Togami YMMV page. Does anyone else think those entries involve characters too minor, too unknown, or not controversial enough to be this trope?
Edited by Apocrypha on Jan 27th 2022 at 8:10:16 AM
For Pokemon I'll need somebody more expreinced in troping to determine who should stay and leave the list
After re-reading the defintion of BBC I decided to retract my addition of Tracey. I also wonder if this entry should stay. As it seems to be less of an issue of the character and more of how Sun and Moon distributes screentime
"Mallow, Lana, and Sophocles all get this to some extent. This is mainly due to the fact that in contrast to previous series, which would just have a main cast of 3-4 people, Sun and Moon has a cast of six to take care of. Some find this refreshing, enjoy all of the different characters' quirks and dreams, and feel that it allows for a much more diverse and varied cast. Others, however, dislike the uneven limelight, with the three in particular criticized for their stagnancy, and sometimes considered less interesting characters than the more dynamic trio of Ash, Kiawe and Lillie who have whittled focus as a result of their presence. By Ultra Legends their reputation calmed mildly due to an improvement in limelight episodes and breakthroughs as Trainers, though some still regard them as dead weight and less interesting protagonists."
You know, I have been thinking about this whole Base-Breaking Character thing and I wonder if characters of any kind should ONLY qualify for this trope if they fit at least one or more of the following:
A. Boring Or Uninteresting Flat Characters
B. Incredibly Mean-Spirited Jerkasses Who Do Really Deplorable Things (like sexual assault and murder, for example)
C. The Unintentionally Unsympathetic
D. Spineless Extreme Doormats That Don't Stand Up For Themselves
I really don't know if it's fair for characters who are ultimately nice and kindhearted, even to an unfailing degree, to be considered Base-Breaking Characters, especially if they are realistically flawed but still lovable and interesting (like the Cowardly Lion trope, for example), and are thus more than worthy of being admired by almost everybody within the entirety of their respective fanbase, and, better yet, have some really great character development under their belts to sweeten the deal and don't devolve into horrible and unlikable Jerkasses for the rest of a series!
But I want to hear what you think! I have a list of such, and I tried to do a good job with this!
Examples:
* Rosalina (Super Mario Galaxy): A very kind and loving young woman who is a warmhearted mother figure to the childlike Luma and has a sad backstory.
* Anzu/Tea (Yu-Gi-Oh!): She is kind and supportive of her friends and can hold her own when she is given the chance.
* Chocola (Yes Pretty Cure 5 Go Go The Movie Happy Birthday In The Land Of Sweets): She is a sweet and well-meaning soul with no ill intentions and a Woobie who went through some serious heartbreak courtesy of the Big Bad Mushiban holding her mother hostage, so she has a pretty good reason to be a really sad little child who cries in despair!
* Lumpy (Winnie The Pooh): A loving little Heffalump who wouldn't hurt a fly! Besides, there exists a family of three friendly Heffalumps in an episode of The New Adventures Of Winnie The Pooh (There's No Camp Like Home) and they become friends with Pooh, Tigger, and Piglet after the misunderstanding with their house of wood is cleared up. Besides, the Heffalumps are goofy and cartoonish elephants that, even at their scariest, are far more than tame looking than the rather scary looking war elephants from The Lord Of The Rings!
* Road Runner (Looney Tunes): To be fair, Wile E. Coyote is trying to kill the Road Runner in cold blood, and the Road Runner himself is an amiable character in his own right, and the cartoon segments wouldn't be the same without both him and the Coyote together! It is because of the Road Runner that Wile E. Coyote comes up with all of these crazy gadgets and gizmos to try and catch him and it makes the cartoons all the more popular for it! And even then, it is possible for the Road Runner to be defeated in the games that have you play as him provided that you are bad at them!
* Roger Rabbit (Who Framed Roger Rabbit?): Sure, he can be annoying to some degree, and he isn't perfect, but granted he is a lot better than Bubsy The Bobcat and his book counterpart from Who Censored Roger Rabbit! At least he is a genuinely sweet cartoon character with a big heart and a lack of obnoxiousness unlike those two, and he had been framed by the evil Judge Doom, and his friendship with Eddie played a gradual but significant part in making the latter learn to appreciate Toons again!
* Marcus (Watch_Dogs 2): A flawed but lovable main character who is far more virtuous than Aiden Pearce and does a better job making the city a better place than Aiden does.
* Wander (Wander Over Yonder): A very sweet and lovable character who is pretty funny and wacky at the same time and his flaw stems from being a Sad Clown on the inside.
* Sans (Undertale): If you are smart enough to go down the Pacifist or True Pacifist route, he is a really good friend to Frisk despite his laziness. Aside from that, he is very loving and protective towards his brother Papyrus!
* Orie (Under Night In-Birth): A very cute and lovable girl with a strong sense of justice who is far tolerable and easy to like than Nanase, and is an ally of the heroic Hyde, and she has her own quirks and flaws (as listed in the Hidden Depths part of her entry and the Adorkable entry of the YMMV page of Under Night In-Birth) which make her flawed but lovable all the same.
* B.E.N. (Treasure Planet): Same thing with Roger Rabbit; he does have his flaws (like his nervousness), but he is a very friendly character outside of that and is on good terms with James and his friends. Plus, unlike Jar Jar Binks in The Phantom Menace, he actually tries to be actively helpful and useful and does a fairly good job in being competent.
* Bumblebee (Transformers): He is a classic favorite Autobot alongside Optimus Prime and he makes up for his weak power levels with his courage and his kindness and protectiveness towards others!
* Squirrel Girl (Marvel Comics): Say what you want about her, but she is a really affable and sweet superheroine who saves the day from the evil villains and has a strong sense of justice! Besides, she's not THAT overpowered in the Lego Marvel games!
* Ackmena (Star Wars Holiday Special): She is a very kindly old lady (played by the lovable Bea Arthur) who doesn't have a mean bone in her body and is agreed to be the best part of the infamous special by a wide margin.
* Jeremy (The Secret Of Nimh): He is a very helpful crow who is a good friend and ally of Mrs. Brisby and his comedic moments help avoid making the movie too dark and scary for younger viewers! Besides, without ANY humor, there is a chance that a work can suffer from being boring or Too Bleak, Stopped Caring! You need some good natured humor to add some character and charm to a dark work after all!
* Tiana (The Princess And The Frog): Even for her rough edges every now and then, she is a very likable Disney Princess who saves as a great role for African-American people and undergoes some excellent character development as she stands up for herself more and actually puts in the hard work of earning her happy ending, which helps in that she ultimately defeats the evil Dr. Falicifer single-handedly in the end when she is cursed as a frog! That is nothing short of amazing!
* Ray (The Princess And The Frog): Despite some stereotypical qualities, he is a good friend and ally of Tiana who helps her out even at the cost of his own life! Being played by the classic Jim Cummings doesn't hurt either!
* Robin (The Muppet Show): He is the kindly nephew of Kermit The Frog who isn't malicious! What makes him especially helpful is how friendly he is towards Sweetums even if most of the other characters, Muppets included, aren't so towards him!
* Timon And Pumbaa (The Lion King): Sure, they weren't the best characters in Disney history, but they are ultimately wonderful and good-hearted animals who, despite their rough edges (but moreso on Timon's side), selflessly went out of their way to heal the emotional scars of Simba and prevent him from being as bad as, if not worse than, Scar. Besides, they risked their lives to help him stop Scar and his hyena army, which takes a lot of courage! And it is thanks to the both of them that Simba ultimately became a hero who saved Pride Rock and earned his right of being The Lion King in the end!
* The Gargoyles (Disney's The Hunchback Of Notre Dame): Same thing with Timon And Pumbaa; It is thanks to their status as loving and supportive foster parents to Quasimodo that he didn't become an evil scumbag like Frollo is but instead became a lovable hero who saved the day!
* Iris Wilson (The Great Ace Attorney): She is far too nice and sweet to be considered a Base-Breaking Character, especially when you consider that she is a genuinely good-natured girl who is easy to love and is nothing but kind and helpful to the main protagonists unlike the Bitch In Sheep's Clothing Dahlia Hawthorne who tried to frame Phoenix, our main hero, for a crime she committed!
* Blankey (The Brave Little Toaster): In all fairness, he is essentially the youngest of the appliances and he doesn't have any nasty and unlikable traits that I can think of!
* Leonardo And Michaelangelo (TMNT 1987): Both of them are classic favorite cartoon characters who are selfless and heroic and the show wouldn't be the same without them being there alongside Donatello and Raphael and all of the others!
* Superman (Superman): He is a classic favorite comic book hero who is very lovable and saintly in most adaptations and he does have his weakness, with kryponite being his biggest one, and he doesn't win EVERY single battle that he is in!
Besides, who in the right mind would hate a man who selflessly saved a Goth Girl from committing suicide in All-Star Superman by telling her that she is better than she thinks she is? If that doesn’t make Superman especially lovable and endearing, I don’t know what does!
* Geno and Mallow (Super Mario RPG): Both of them are likable and sympathetic characters who go through their fair share of problems and end up becoming stronger by means of Character Development thanks to Mario and friends!
* Toadette (Super Mario Bros.): For the most part, she is a very sweet and likable Toad who goes out of her way to help Mario in any way that she can.
Plus, in her sole appearance in Sucks To Be Weegee Dirty Jobs Part 2 Finale, she is presented as being equally sweet and likable as she compliments the downtrodden Luigi for his hard work and kisses him on the cheek in a heartwarming and chaste way, cheering him up and making him feel a lot better!
* Sprixie Princesses (Super Mario 3D World): Very cute and lovable princesses that don't antagonize Mario and friends but instead express gratitude to them for being rescued from the evil Bowser!
* Spider Man (Spider-Man: Homecoming): Sure, he had his flaws, but he is still a virtuous and lovable hero who did the right thing and underwent some really good character development after everything he endured in the movie!
* Lola Bunny and Michael Jordan (Space Jam): Both of them are sympathetic and likable characters in their own right; Lola Bunny is a Nice Girl who grows to love Bugs Bunny after he saves her from a Monstar attack and Michael Jordan gets his edge as a basketball player back thanks to his escapedes with the Looney Tunes characters and he was willingly and selflessly putting his own freedom on the line in exchange for the freedom of the aforementioned classic characters that we all know and love!
* Link (The Legend Of Zelda: The Wind Waker): He is a very sweet and lovable kid who courageously and selflessly went out of his way to save his sister Aryll and defeat Ganondorf and stop said evil villain from bringing destruction to the world!
* Chip (Sonic Unleashed): Same thing with Roger Rabbit; He does have his annoyances, but he is a very selfless and good friend towards Sonic and he courageously risked his life to save the world from Dark Gaia.
* Custom Hero Avatar (Sonic Forces): The Avatar himself/herself has a really fun gameplay style and even undergoes Character Development from a cowardly fighter to a courageous savior!
* Julia (Sesame Street): She may not be the best representation of Autism, but granted she is a BILLION TIMES better than Music Gamble of the 2021 film Music and Sam of Atypical! At least she is a really nice girl who didn’t devolve into a jerkass like Sam of Atypical and she is not treated like garbage like Music Gamble nor she is offensive taken at face value. Unfortunately, the fact that Autism Speaks used Julia for their own nefarious means is just spiteful on their part!
]
* Iroha (Samurai Showdown): She is a very kindly maid who defies the submissive maid cliche by being able to hold her own in battle and is very much like the beloved Talim thanks to her positive qualities!
* Cappy (Robots): She is a very likable character and is not a horrid and unlikable jerkass nor a weak and helpless fembot!
* Arle (Puyo Puyo): She is a girl with a strong sense of justice and, as detailed in the Puyo Puyo Compile Major Character Page, she is not longer as high-strung and her mean streak has all but disappeared! It’d be more appropriate if her Puyo Puyo Quest related entry stemmed more into a Broken Base or Scrappy Mechanic entry because she herself is a likable character and the entry in the YMMV page seems to be more like a gameplay problem rather than a characterization problem!
* Norg (Power Rangers): Incompetent though he may be, he is a very sweet and likable monster who had to put up with Flurious’ verbal abuse and he even helped the Power Rangers and became a good friend to them in the end!
* Pocahontas (Disney’s Pocahontas): She is a kind and humble Disney Heroine who is very competent and is not a Mary Sue for she has her problems and figures out how to solve them in a realistic manner mostly by herself, which is way more than what can be said about some certain Mary Sues that are absolute scumbags!
* Flurrie (Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door): She is a lovable wind spirit diva who selflessly goes out of her way to help Mario in defeating the evil Shadow Queen and defies the stereotype of divas being nasty in personality because of it!
* Mei (Overwatch): From a gameplay standpoint, this may be acceptable if Tier-Induced Scrappy isn’t enough for her. From a character standpoint, however, it is a different story entirely: She is a sweet and lovable girl who is unfortunately accused of being an evil satanist by the rapid Overwatch fanbase left and right when in reality she went through her fair share of sadness but was able to soldier on and she heroically and selflessly helped out of the other heroes and heroines of Overwatch in saving the innocent and defeating the evil villains!
* Tracer (Overwatch): Similarly too likable and kindhearted to be a Base-Breaking Character in a characterization sense in the same vein as Mei!
* The Mane Six, Spike, and The Cutie Mark Crusaders (My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic): For the most part, all of them are inherently likable and wonderful protagonists who clean up their acts when they make mistakes, help others in need selflessly, and are overall very likable! The Cutie Mark Crusaders are especially likable since neither of the three are Jerkasses but are instead kindly children who have selflessly helped others in finding their true talents and improving their lives in the process!
* Sci-Twi (My Little Pony: Equestria Girls): She is far too nice and lovable to be a Base-Breaking Character; She is really adorable, is an unfortunate target of bullying at Crystal Prep (before she transfers to Canterlot and gets a better school life and is better for it) which is both relatable and believable, had been blackmailed by said school into using her magic amulet to cheat their way to victory in the Friendship Games and had been unwillingly brainwashed and transformed into Midnight Sparkle, learns to stand up for herself thanks to her friendships with the Humane Six, is very smart and precocious, has her fair share of flaws which she comes to terms with, fights her inner demons, has really good or at least decent Character Development, and, BEST OF ALL, doesn’t devolve into a nasty and horrible Jerkass in any future installments that I am aware of!
* Mickey Mouse (Mickey Mouse): He is a classic favorite Disney character who, for the most part, is a lovable character and has his flaws and defeats just like Superman! Plus, there are some works that he is in that are far more badass than others (like Kingdom Hearts for example)!
* Mary Poppins (Disney Mary Poppins Movie): Compared to her book incarnation, Mary Poppins is far more likable and nurturing and thus easy to root for but at the same time she can be stern (but reasonable) when she needs to be, which is vastly better than her far nastier and vainer personality in the book series!
* Lotte (Little Witch Academia): Akko and Sucy wouldn’t be complete without her! She isn’t perfect either, if her backstory is an indication, but she is still a nice and likable girl all the same.
* Tiff (Kirby: Right Back At Ya!): Say what you want about her, but she is genuinely kind and supportive towards Kirby and she played a huge part in making Kirby become the lovable savior of Cappy Town who even defeated the evil Nightmare and put an end to his reign of terror for good! Without her, none of this would have happened!
* Bananda Waddle Dee (Kirby): A very likable character who becomes a good friend of Kirby and helps him out in his adventures after initially playing the role of a rather reluctant antagonist towards him near the end of Revenge Of The King in Kirby Super Star Ultra!
* Olaf (Frozen): He is a sweet-tempered snowman with a big heart and he selflessly risked his life to save Anna from freezing to death from an accidental curse brought upon her by Elsa by lighting up a fire for her to stay warm even at the cost of him slowly melting from the heat and he gave Anna words of encouragement to find her sister Elsa and save her from being killed by Hans, who betrayed Anna and left her to die in the first place, and Anna was able to learn true love by saving Elsa even at the cost of turning into an ice statue, which resulted in Elsa reviving Anna and the two sisters reconciling and undoing the winter curse upon the kingdom of Arendelle, so both of these two owe everything to Olaf for helping them set things right and love each other again!
* Jenna (Balto): She was the only dog who was ever nice to Balto in the beginning of the movie and remains a friendly husky towards him and never devolves into a horrible and nasty jerk, so having her as a Base-Breaking Character doesn’t seem right!
* Madison (Class Of 3000): Same thing with Roger Rabbit; she has her annoyances, but she is a kind soul who serves as The Heart of Sunny Bridges’ group of friends, is prone to all sorts of humorous slapstick that Looney Tunes fans will appreciate, isn’t Jerkass material, and even becomes a bit more three-dimensional in Season 2!
* Tilly (Big City Greens): Tilly isn’t one-dimensional or boring as a character. In fact, later on, she becomes rather goofy and creative (as detailed in her entry in the Characters page) and is far too cute, friendly, and amiable to earn the ire of a vast majority of the fanbase!
* Webby Vanderquack (Ducktales 2017): She is a very likable character with a well-meaning and good-natured personality who has her fair share of flaws that are very relatable (such as her lack of social skills) and she isn’t reduced to a helpless damsel in distress nor does she devolve into a nasty and horrible jerkass! On top of that, she has believable Character Development and, even if it might not be completely true or not, next to Himari of Kira Kira Precure A La Mode, she is a far more tasteful and three-dimensional portrayal of an Autistic character and a wonderfully well-written role model for Autistic people, defying the negative stereotypes of Hollywood Autism by making her realistically quirky and flawed (such as her lack of social skills as mentioned earlier) but still sweet, lovable, and believable!
* Honey Lemon (Big Hero 6): Very kind, very nurturing, and very friendly towards her friends, but most especially Hiro, and can hold her own in battle!
How can anyone hate a warmhearted and loving girl like her?
* Cure Heart (DokiDoki! Pretty Cure): Aside from being likable thanks to her status as an All-Loving Heroine, she has her fair share of flaws like being a Bad Liar, Loses her Pretty Cure powers temporarily in Episode 23, isn’t always happy all the time if her Break The Cutie, Get A Hold Of Yourself Man, Heartbroken Badass, Heroic BSoD, Hurting Hero, OOC Is serious Business, Oblivious To Love, and Punished For Sympathy entries can attest to, and is terrible at singing, so, technically, Cure Heart can’t be Mary Sue material!
* Mamako (Do You Love Your Mom And Her Two-Hit Multi-Target Attacks?): She can be embarrassing to her son depending on one’s point of view, but she is an ultimately sweet and loving mother and doesn’t have a mean bone in her body! Plus, she is too adorable for words in her personality! After all, having amiable and good parents who only want what’s best for you and to make sure that you go down the right path in life is far better than having evil and sadistic parents who are trying to kill you or make you into evil psychopaths (I am looking at you, Heihachi Mishima)!
* Chiyo (Azumanga Daioh): She is a very sweet and likable character, so having something like her as the main character is far more preferable and far less painful than having a nasty and coldhearted creep as the main character (like the infamous Allen Gregory) for example! Besides, she added some things that are worth while like the Cooking Song and the Penguin Costume!
* Isabelle (Animal Crossing): Isabelle is far too nice and likable to be a Base-Breaking Character for she is not a nasty Jerkass who does horrible things to others even in the slightest! Besides, her scatterbrained and clumsy traits just add to her likability!
NOTE: I want to apologize if most of, if not all of, the entries have the same specifics for the characters I mentioned or look very similar in wording, but I thought it would be a good idea to give important specifics as to why the characters listed on here don't deserve to be considered Base-Breaking Characters, or even Scrappies for that matter!
Whether a character qualifies for BBC has nothing to do with what they are like in-universe and all to do with whether their opinion divides fans in the real world.
All of the things you just listed sound more like you projecting personal Pet Peeve Tropes, and while some characters who fit those descriptions have gotten the kind of IRL audience reactions to qualify as BBC, just as many aren't, and likewise just as many widely accepted BBC do not fit those traits at all.
Edited by AlleyOop on Jan 28th 2022 at 3:47:48 PM
HoMM Fan
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Base-Breaking Character's definition is fine as is, it doesn't mean "this character is bad" or "this character is good", it means "the fanbase has strongly divided opinions on this character". It's an audience reaction, which is why it's YMMV.
As for your four qualifiers...
1. Completely subjective qualifier in terms of "boring", and Flat Character is its own term and is not a bad thing in and of itself.
2. Hate Sink and Jerkass are already their own tropes, plus a Hate Sink is generally disqualified from Scrappy or Base breaking status because they were made to be hated.
3. Again, that can be a reason why a character is base breaking or a scrappy, but it shouldn't be a required qualifier.
4. Don't even really have a specific response to this beyond just "totally subjective" again.
Again, just to restate the key point, being a base breaker is not a condemnation or commendation of a character's quality, it's just noting that the fandom is extremely divided on their opinions regarding them.
Final Note: Niceness, kindness, and goodness do not exclude a character from base breaking or even scrappy status (we even have a trope for it, Tastes Like Diabetes).
Edited by Tonwen on Jan 28th 2022 at 2:49:43 PM
"Grandmaster Combat, son!"
Goku Black
Btw did I check the superman ymmv page and noticed these.
- Base-Breaking Character:
- Some fans find Superman one of the greatest comic characters in history while others find him a boring character that is too perfect and overpowered to connect with the fans.
- Lex Luthor: Competent antagonist who provides an interesting Evil Brains contrast to Superman's Good Brawn, or weakling that the writers make too big of a deal over purely out of the Grandfather Clause?
- Lois Lane - awesome woman by way of her guts and intelligence, or an annoying pain in the ass Designated Love Interest.
I uh don't think any of these count in you know Superman comics. Their all well liked. Supes especially since you know it's his book why would he be divisive for the audience.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
P360, mind not keep trying to propose sweeping changes outside of TRS? This is at least the second time you've tried.
I'm trying to do what I can to be helpful for TV Tropes and yet I keep screwing up everything!
Maybe we should put a nomination system in place
HoMM Fan
I don't think that's necessary, this is nowhere near as contentious a trope as some of the other complaint attracting character tropes.
"Grandmaster Combat, son!"
So, about those Dangan Ronpa entries I mentioned. Is there anyone from the fanbase who can chime in whether in agreement they're too minor to count? Should I go ahead and delete them?
I'll admit, I'm also not very familiar with those spin-offs besides 3, so I can't really say, but I think that the fact that neither of us know much about them is probably telling of how much heated debate there is around those characters. As for 3, I could see 3 Chiaki counting because she's a lot more divisive than her game counterpart, but I'm not sure if the others are controversial enough to cause debates like some of the other characters in the franchise. The Nagito one could probably tie into his regular BBC entry if needed, since he's always been incredibly divisive.
EDIT: Speaking of Danganronpa, it just occurred to me that V3 still has its own page, but also has characters from the game listed on the franchise page. The characters listed on the game's page are also different from the one's listed on the franchise page. Should we move all the characters to one or the other?
Edited by Oshawott337 on Feb 1st 2022 at 8:51:25 AM
"Let’s see who’s stronger: someone that has something to protect, or someone that has nothing to lose."
I remember there was quite a bit of debate over Chiaki (and Juzo and Kyosuke) back when 3 released, but I honestly think it's died down. 3 doesn’t get mentioned that often anymore, and when it does, opinions on the characters in it aren't expressed as viciously as they were back in 2016-2017. There are people who like them and people who hate them, but I wouldn't say they're majorly controversial (anymore).
Nagito, yeah, I figured I’d move his stuff onto the franchise page (along with his stuff on Another Episode's YMMV page).
As for V3, I’d say we should move them onto the franchise page as well, though I think all three of those need a bit of cleaning up—-Maki's and Kirumi's both seem overly wordy, and Kaito's seems to mention more about people who don’t like him than those who do. How’s this look?
- Kaito Momota. Some fans love him for being The Heart of the group and his Awesome Ego, viewing his speeches as much-needed encouragement to the reclusive Maki and the self-deprecating Shuichi. Others dislike him for some sexist comments and his tendencies to stick with his emotions instead of logic and common sense, viewing his speeches about believing in anyone as something any generic shounen protagonist would say. His detractors also site his behavior towards Shuichi in the fourth class trial as him being annoying and petty, while his fans defend it as a way to represent a Fatal Flaw in his character.
- Kirumi Tojo. Her detractors dislike her for being incredibly talented at everything she does, without any sort of explanation for her skills in her Free Time Event, with her only "weakness" - being unable to slice konjac root – coming off as a joke weakness to them. Her fans appreciate her character design, the selflessness and caring behind all of her actions, and her Team Mom personality, and point to how her joke weakness is portrayed as actual weakness—an inability to accept imperfection—in her later Free Time Events and Harmonious Heart event. The real divide, though, comes from the major plot twist in Chapter 2, where it's revealed she's the de facto Prime Minister of Japan. Those who took it poorly saw it as an Ass Pull to justify her murder, not helped by the Values Dissonance in the West, and hate her for manipulating a suicidal person into accepting his death and trying to manipulate the other students into sacrificing themselves for her. Those who buy into her The Needs of the Many utilitarianism find her motive more sympathetic, arguing that the lives of thirteen high school students she met a few days ago can look quite insignificant compared to the lives of the entire country of Japan
- Maki Harukawa is either loved for her Defrosting Ice Queen Character Development or hated for being a cliche edgelord, to say nothing of her actions in Chapter 5. In that chapter, she wanted to kill everybody in the fifth trial so she could survive (since she thought she was the blackened), and she made no secret about how she liked the fact this would also kill Kokichi even though it would also condemn her so called "friends" to die. This and how Easily Forgiven she was for the whole thing rubbed a lot of players the wrong way, while her fans argue that she should get cut some slack for having to watch the man she loves be executed and that her later willingness to sacrifice herself in Chapter 6 makes up for it.
Edited by Apocrypha on Feb 4th 2022 at 6:54:18 AM
I'll admit, I mostly brought up Chiaki because while it's technically a different version of her, since she is connected to a major character from the games, I did see it kind of affect people's opinions of her in some ways for people who grew tired of her once they got to know who she actually was, at least enough for it to come up in debates involving her character. But maybe I'm wrong, I'll admit I haven't interacted in the fandom as much since around 2018.
I think those are good rewrites! I say move them. Though honestly, I think there are some entries on the main page that should be rewritten, too- some of them are a bit long and with Shuichi's in particular, while it at least isn't like 4 bullet points long anymore, it's still pretty much entirely one-sided and focusing on early complaints about him.
"Let’s see who’s stronger: someone that has something to protect, or someone that has nothing to lose."
Okay, I'm gonna cut the examples on the side entries' YMMV pages and move the V3 ones to the franchise page. Also looking at the franchise page, I think Byakuya and Sayaka should be cut—Byakuya's entry flat-out admits most fans consider him Rescued from the Scrappy Heap later on, and I think Sayaka's more of The Scrappy among the fanbase (and I'm saying this as someone who actually likes Sayaka).
So, trimming (unmarked spoilers ahead since they're unmarked on the franchise page as well):
- Leon Kuwata. His detractors hate him because of his status as an early casualty who gets barely any screentime, with discouraging Free Time Events that paint him as a Casanova Wannabe and a Flat Character. Leon's defenders however, often say that he has more in him than what meets the eye, often referring to School Mode, in which he is shown to actually be a Jerk with a Heart of Gold, and Ultra Despair Hagakure, which delves into his Big Brother Instinct for his cousin Kanon.
...Is Leon even argued about enough to qualify? - Celestia Ludenberg. You either love her for her mysterious personality, her unique character design, and her accent in the English dub, or you want her head on a skewer because she acts uncaring towards everyone (a prime example would be her very casually saying that it was Chihiro's own fault he got killed only because he didn't respect her self-imposed night time rule). Her murder plan is also a whole point of controversy as she killed two people, one of them being the fan-favorite Kiyotaka Ishimaru, for seemingly completely selfish reasons—her detractors despise her for it, while her fans argue that given her Consummate Liar nature, her reasons might have been more motivated by fear than selfishness.
- Leon Kuwata. His detractors hate him because of his status as an early casualty who gets barely any screentime, with discouraging Free Time Events that paint him as a Casanova Wannabe and a Flat Character. Leon's defenders however, often say that he has more in him than what meets the eye, often referring to School Mode, in which he is shown to actually be a Jerk with a Heart of Gold, and Ultra Despair Hagakure, which delves into his Big Brother Instinct for his cousin Kanon.
- Nagito Komaeda, The Rival, is extremely contentious and has two large camps around him. The first camp finds him a pitiable tragic figure who is trying to help in his own way. The second camp finds him a crazed maniac who shows cruelty and a Lack of Empathy in how he trash-talks Komaru and Hajime for their lack of talent. His later spotlight in Ultra Despair Girls, 3, and 2.5 didn't help matters, as his fans were naturally happy to see him get so much focus and his detractors were naturally irritated to see him get so much focus.
- The main reasons why Mahiru Koizumi is divisive are because of her strict view on the boys' gender roles and her double standards in not using her role as Hiyoko's Morality Pet to stop her from bullying Mikan, but immediately jumping on the cast when they make Hiyoko cry. You have a side that decries her as a man-hating misandrist and hypocrite and a side that praises her as a Jerk with a Heart of Gold who's only so harsh on the guys because of how she had to parent her Lazy Bum father.
- Sonia Nevermind. Those who dislike Sonia say she's a Static Character who barely impacts the plot of the game, feel like Sonia's Ship Tease moments with Gundham are forced down the player's throat, and hate how rude she is to Kazuichi (to the point of telling him to his face she's disappointed he wasn't the murderer during the fourth Class Trial). Furthermore, the fact that she's still cordial to the far nastier pervert Teruteru (who tried to trick Sonia into giving him a blowjob) and resident Bitch in Sheep's Clothing Hiyoko makes Sonia into a hypocrite in the eyes of these fans, who call Kazuichi harmless in comparison to those two. On the other hand, the people that like Sonia enjoy her Nightmare Fetishist, Occidental Otaku and Covert Pervert tendencies, find her and Gundham's Ship Tease to be cute, and appreciate that she's one of the nicest students in the game. In regards to her treatment of Kazuichi, her fans say that she can't be blamed for it as he puts her on a pedestal, stalks her and makes a lot of creepy remarks to her (including right after Gundham dies), and that she did try to be nice to him at first but eventually got fed up with his behavior.
- Tenko Chabashira has a lot of detractors for her creepy behavior towards Himiko and her misandry, which easily treads into physical and verbal abuse. Meeting the detractors head-on are Tenko's fans, who love her for her cute and excitable nature and find her crush on Himiko sweet, arguing that despite the stalking Tenko was really trying to get Himiko to come out of her shell.
I don't like Tenko, but this was really slanted against her before. Also cut pre-release reactions.
- Tenko Chabashira has a lot of detractors for her creepy behavior towards Himiko and her misandry, which easily treads into physical and verbal abuse. Meeting the detractors head-on are Tenko's fans, who love her for her cute and excitable nature and find her crush on Himiko sweet, arguing that despite the stalking Tenko was really trying to get Himiko to come out of her shell.
Rewriting:
- Mikan Tsumiki split the fanbase due to her actions in Chapter 3, when she murders Hiyoko and Ibuki for the sake of her beloved (later revealed to be Junko Enoshima). While Mikan mostly gets a pass for the Junko thing (as she was brainwashed and a victim of Junko's abuse), her choice of victims is what caused the split, as Ibuki is a fan-favorite and Hiyoko's death wasted a lot of her potential. Thus, you have one side that utterly despises Mikan for murdering two characters who they consider better, and a side that loves her despite that due to how shy and helpful she was before. Her Free-Time Events deepened the divide, as they simultaneously shed light on the abuse she suffered and reveal she has a manipulative streak and enjoys the position of power she has over her patients. Cue her detractors viewing her as a cold-blooded Manipulative Bitch and her fans feeling even sorrier for her.
It was previously just a huge back-and-forth about her role in the story.
- Mikan Tsumiki split the fanbase due to her actions in Chapter 3, when she murders Hiyoko and Ibuki for the sake of her beloved (later revealed to be Junko Enoshima). While Mikan mostly gets a pass for the Junko thing (as she was brainwashed and a victim of Junko's abuse), her choice of victims is what caused the split, as Ibuki is a fan-favorite and Hiyoko's death wasted a lot of her potential. Thus, you have one side that utterly despises Mikan for murdering two characters who they consider better, and a side that loves her despite that due to how shy and helpful she was before. Her Free-Time Events deepened the divide, as they simultaneously shed light on the abuse she suffered and reveal she has a manipulative streak and enjoys the position of power she has over her patients. Cue her detractors viewing her as a cold-blooded Manipulative Bitch and her fans feeling even sorrier for her.
- Shuichi Saihara. You have either vowed to never forgive him for "usurping" the protagonist role from Kaede or vowed to defend his role as the protagonist to the death. His design and personality don't help either, as without his hat he easily has one of the most generic designs in the series and has a personality similar to the previous protagonists. At the same time, he does have things that stand out, such as an actual talent he uses during the game and a long arc of Character Development. Thus, you either think he's a generic and boring rip-off of Makoto, Hajime, and Komaru, or an interesting take on old archetypes who has the best character arc of the protagonists.
As said, previously it was just about pre-release material.
- Shuichi Saihara. You have either vowed to never forgive him for "usurping" the protagonist role from Kaede or vowed to defend his role as the protagonist to the death. His design and personality don't help either, as without his hat he easily has one of the most generic designs in the series and has a personality similar to the previous protagonists. At the same time, he does have things that stand out, such as an actual talent he uses during the game and a long arc of Character Development. Thus, you either think he's a generic and boring rip-off of Makoto, Hajime, and Komaru, or an interesting take on old archetypes who has the best character arc of the protagonists.
Edited by Apocrypha on Feb 4th 2022 at 6:53:31 AM
Angry babby
I hate to be that guy, but should those entries be folderized when you discuss them to prevent spoilers? I'm watching a playthrough of DR 2 recently and this post just kind of spoiled some of the murders for me, so...
Edited by mightymewtron on Feb 4th 2022 at 12:51:31 PM
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
You're absolutely right, I'm so sorry. Edited.
Also are we sure Lysandre isnt a scrappy in the games Ive NEVER seen a fan of him