Condemned by History cleanup thread

So this is on the main Condemned by History page and I am going to have to question this entry.

• The 2000s saw a boom in young adult books about "elite" high school girls, following the success of Mean Girls. Books about the lives of rich spoiled teenagers found a big market share. One of the more successful examples, Gossip Girl, was turned into an even more successful TV series. To a lesser extent, the similar series The Clique became a very short-lived Cash-Cow Franchise. However, mutltiple factors put an end to this trend, as the Alpha Bitch was already firmly ingrained as a villainous character and youth bullying becoming a hot topic towards the end of the decade, which turned the main characters of these books from enviable people into Villain Protagonists. The Great Recession around the same time made the large displays of wealth in the books look tacky and tasteless. Also, many of these series received heavy criticism for depicting their characters (who were almost always minors) in a sexual, sleazy manner. Nowadays, if any of these series are remembered, they are targets of ridicule for the people who grew up reading them, or seen as examples of everything wrong with youth culture in the 2000s.^note In hindsight, Mean Girls deconstructed the genre despite being its progenitor. It had already examined school bullying as a main topic, and demonstrated how being an Alpha Bitch wasn't something to be envied. Many books that played Follow the Leader missed the aspect that was being criticized.

These books still draw a huge amount of nostalgia if I recall correctly, the fact that some of these works have cult followings to this day Gosspip Girl got a revival shows there is at least some sort of audience out there.

I dont know, Gone With The Wind still "evokes nostalgia" and it is very much condemned by history...

Gone with the Wind isn't listed as Condemned by History though

Ouch. Nevermind then.

The book? Maybe. The movie? I doubt it

Wait what? I think I either misunderstood you or got it backwards because the movie at least tries to not be as awful as the book. (No Blackface and no having the Klu Klux Klan as good guys)

Someone linked to the movie. Also Blackface in a boom and the Klan as good guys? Are you sure you’re not talking about Birth of a Nation?

I meant that Gone With The Wind's movie avoids blackface.

I still want to know what you meant with " The book? Maybe. The movie? I doubt it"

Edited by AegisP on Nov 25th 2022 at 5:17:56 AM

I was responding to “Is Gone with the Wind CBH”. I doubt the movie counts but I can see the book counting.

Oh good that's great!

?

The misunderstanding has been cleared. That's great. NOT the racist movies.

I haven’t seen the movie or read the book so I can’t really say if either qualifies. Being one of the most important movies of all time does not spare the movie though, Birth of a Nation is even more important and its CBH

Just noticed this was added:

• Destiny of the Shrine Maiden was one of the earliest mainstream manga and anime to explicitly focus on romance between girls, openly depicting the lesbian relationship between the two main heroines without any Les Yay subtext or reliance on Bait-and-Switch Lesbians, which attracted a lot of attention since such series were rare at the time. However, now, in an increasingly tolerant climate to homosexual relationships and with a larger number of mainstream yuri works, the series may seem very old-fashioned due to the heavy use of Hide Your Lesbians, extreme melodrama, Cliché Storm and Dead Horse Tropes like the death of one of the girls. In particular, one of the heroines, Chikane, sexually assaults the protagonist Himeko, only for her to ultimately be Easily Forgiven and they get reincarnated and hook up anyway. While the series did draw some criticism for these elements around the time it was released, as more and more Yuri series came out that avoided doing these things, the series began getting Hype Backlash and being torn to shreds by modern Yuri fans, especially the rape aspect which came under fire from actual sexual assault survivors thanks to increased awareness of female-on-female rape. Nowadays, it's viewed by many as a melodramatic, cliched, confused mess centering on a toxic, unhealthy relationship.

Was it even that popular when it aired?

"in an increasingly tolerant climate to homosexual relationships" LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

But to be serious for a sec, I've literally never heard of this manga before. Is it considered outright bad / misinformative or is it just simple Values Dissonance that was Fair for Its Day?

They are becoming more tolerant. More slowly than other parts of the world, granted, but still making progress.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Dec 11th 2022 at 9:21:12 AM

Kind of? I remember it being talked about a lot and praised for being a yuri anime that doesn't end in Bait-and-Switch Lesbians with the female characters falling for male interests at the end. But nowadays it's considered to have aged poorly due to one of the characters being an Easily Forgiven Yandere rapist who suffers from major Gayngst that would be seen as somewhat nonsensical by today's standards.

Edited by AlleyOop on Dec 11th 2022 at 11:15:45 AM

It seems more of a case of Values Dissonance and Fair for Its Day than Condemned by History. Plus the fact that this is the first time I ever heard of this manga/anime makes me further question if this is a valid entry as it needs to have been once very popular and well liked by critics before opinions on it sour for whatever reason.

I feel like it was only ever popular and well-received in a "well, this is all we got" sense.

Some people liked it for one of the earlier examples of a yuri series having a darker and more dramatic storyline coupled to a more fantastical genre (mecha), since most yuri romances before then were slice-of-life and either extremely fluffy sugarbowls or were very melodramatic in a "normal" sense.

Later yuri shows would be less afraid to combine yuri with action, scifi, or the supernatural. Simoun was a show with some similar world elements that was much better received, and nowadays we have the newest Gundam series Witch from Mercury even treats homosexuality as completely mundane and thus far has none of the offputting elements Kannazuki no Miko did.

Fair for Its Day would fit.

Edited by AlleyOop on Dec 12th 2022 at 10:07:25 AM

Well, funny me, it already has an entry on Fair for Its Day. Probably going to remove from Condemned by History since it seems to be redundant with the former.

Would the Jerry Springer show count? While it had its fair share of criticism back in the day, it was also huge at the time, so much so that it spawned its own movie. But now its no longer airing new episodes and is simply seen as a particularly ugly example of trashy 90s tv.

I'm not sure. We expanded CBH to be "mostly liked" to "mostly hated" within its niche, but I can't say for certain if Springer was mostly liked. I think it was popular in its day, but not really liked per se, more like a Guilty Pleasure. I wasn't alive then though, so someone who was may need to pitch in here.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Dec 21st 2022 at 4:20:09 AM

From YMMV.Neptunia

• Vindicated by History: After Victory and the Re;birth games were released, the first game quickly gained a reputation as "the worst game in the series". However, it has recently regained some of its favor among fans who are willing to overlook the less than stellar gameplay for the interesting plot. Some even feel that it's a must-play.
  • Inverted in the case of mk2 and Victory. mk2 was once considered a Surprisingly Improved Sequel, but is nowadays considered to be just So Okay, It's Average, while Victory, which was once considered "the best game in the series" is now Overshadowed by Awesome next to Re;birth3 and Megadimension Neptunia VII and gets criticized for its story, pacing, and characterization.

Due to the fact that you can't play with YMMV tropes, I was thinking of changing the second bullet point to Condemned by History. what do you think?

I don't think the turnaround in reception is extreme enough to warrant that, based on the wording of that post, so it'd be better to just delete it. I'm not part of the Neptunia fandom though, so it may be worth probing for further opinions.

Edited by bowserbros on Dec 24th 2022 at 2:30:47 AM