Opening, because there are just way too many disagreeing things here.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Gentleman Troper!
As I understand it, this is basically "the main antagonist uses a figurehead". That's a straightforward trope, but it means that the main antagonist is the Big Bad and the figurehead is a Red Herring. The problem here stems from the description, that tries to cast the main antagonist as The Dragon (even though he's clearly not) and the figurehead as the Big Bad (even though he really isn't either). I'm guessing that the snowcloned name doesn't help either.
If we clear up the description, it will be clear that some examples need to be moved to e.g. The Starscream.
Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That's not how I got it. Where does it say that? I think we have two tropes here. I have a solution: Redefine Dragon-in-Chief as just merely The Dragon is more of a threat than the Big Bad. For the examples that the Big Bad is The Dragon to a Big Bad Wannabe, they will be moved to a new trope called The Dragon Behind The Man (The Dragon is in charge, not there supposed "master").
edited 7th Dec '14 1:11:39 PM by SatoshiBakura
Gentleman Troper!
It strikes me as self-contradictory for The Big Bad to be The Dragon to somebody else.
Chair Man
Some of those definitions fits more into The Heavy
MAX POWER KILL JEEEEEEEEWWWWW
I always thought of this being the 'The Big Bad is just a figurehead The Dragon is the real threat or Man Behind the Man' thing. I can think of a lot examples of that.
x3 That would be The Heavy.
edited 7th Dec '14 4:53:37 PM by Memers
Oh and there is one more kind of misuse I see.
When Big Bad is The Dragon to a Bigger Bad:
- Mard Geer of the dark guild Tartaros in Fairy Tail is the de facto guild master, yet he's actually the The Dragon to Master E.N.D. However, E.N.D. is currently sealed within his Book of Zeref, which is the entire goal of the arc: Mard intends to revive his master and return to the role of Dragon, and he is utterly devoted to the goal, even willing to destroy all the magic in Earthland just so he can remove the seal on the book.
That one seems to mistake this for the relationship between Big Bad and Bigger Bad.
Serocco
The Dragon-in-Chief is when the Big Bad's top enforcer is more dangerous than their employer. Classic cases come from Rob Lucci to Spandam in One Piece, for example, or Zabuza to Gato in Naruto, and Esdeath to Honest in Akame Ga Kill.
The key component, I feel, is that the Dragon-in-Chief's defeat would spell immediate doom to the Big Bad, whereas a typical Dragon wouldn't. Spandam and Gato are fucked without Lucci and Zabuza, and once they're beaten (or reformed in Zabuza's case), their employers are removed almost instantaneously. Regardless of what they feel about their boss (simple disdain in Lucci's case, or outright Starscreaming like Majin Buu), the Dragon-in-Chief is the reason the Big Bad is getting anything done/untouchable until something directly impedes the DIC.
Honest and Esdeath follow that formula perfectly. He is the root of all corruption in the setting, so he's the Big Bad, but Esdeath is far more prominent, far more powerful, and far more involved with the direction of the story; he flat-out admits his life is forfeit if he crosses her, and without her, his rule is done, so he's forced himself to let her do whatever she wants, even when it works against him (like having to disband his secret police). There is some nuance there, because he doesn't boss her around like Spandam or Gato (he knows better), but she's not The Starscream, he's not a Bigger Bad (in fact, he's closer to a Big Bad Wannabe), and he's a Non-Action Big Bad (just like Spandam, Gato, and Babidi).
One case that does not count is Tartarus to the Prophet of Truth in Halo 2 (I know they're not listed, but that's why I'm bringing them up). A punch could kill a Prophet instantaneously, but while Tartarus is a lot stronger, his death doesn't completely fuck Truth over. It provides an impediment, sure, but it just forces him to head over to the Ark, a device that would've fired all seven Halo rings rather than just the one Tartarus was at. He's just a typical enforcer for Truth, so he's not a DIC by any means. If anything, Truth was more dangerous without Tartarus.
If you wanna split hairs, the Dragon-in-Chief is actually the main antagonist (in the truest sense, not the literary sense), while the Big Bad is "just" the main orchestrator without really being that involved directly (he's most likely to be a Non-Action Big Bad, or at least significantly weaker than his DIC). If you want a new trope that says The Dragon is the main villain, we kinda already have that in The Heavy, more or less, because that's the character who drives the plot, regardless of whether they're The Dragon or the Big Bad (and a DIC can be The Heavy as well by that token). I think it's really a matter of cleaning up the language and starting from there.
edited 11th Dec '14 2:20:08 AM by Serocco
In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
Bump. Again, I propose to split this into two tropes:
- Dragon-in-Chief: The Dragon is a bigger threat than the Big Bad.
- The Dragon Behind The Man: The Big Bad acts as The Dragon to a Big Bad Wannabe.
Bump. I'm actually thinking of changing the proposed name to The Man in Front of the Man (to get all evil minions rather than just The Dragon).
edited 31st Dec '14 4:03:45 PM by SatoshiBakura
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
Hypercompetent Sidekick seems much more applicable than The Man in Front of the Man. The first is a powerlevel trope, and the second is a deception trope. Dragon-in-Chief doesn't seem to be about deceiving anyone, just where the Big Bad depends on a specific minion in order to accomplish anything.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
You Give Me Fever
Why was bigger bad even brought up? The Bigger Bad description says that it is not a Sub-Trope of Big Bad. That's the snow clone if there is one and no one seems confused about it in relation to this page.
For that matter, I think Big Bad Wannabe should be removed from the description, apart from the compare contrast list at the bottom. If someone isn't the big bad, then this is not in play. The dragon is the main servant of the big bad, a dragon in chief is a main servant who is more powerful/dangerous/active than his boss but would not have caused the main plot without their boss's influence. Keep it simple.
The Big Bad's own page description sums it up neatly in my opinion.
edited 3rd Jan '15 1:30:03 PM by IndirectActiveTransport
That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes
Did you skim over my post? I said that "the Big Bad is The Dragon to a Bigger Bad". I'm still not sure what to do about that.
Yes, this is "the biggest, ugliest villain in a story". That's why I'm saying to split. Make The Man in Front of the Man a separate trope from The Man Behind the Man.
You Give Me Fever
What is there to do about it? It's pretty hard to call the "bigger bad" divorced from the story when the big bad works directly for it. Would that not simply make the it a case of the Big Bad and the Dragon? However, in the event it does somehow happen, I'm not sure there needs to be a page for that specific instance. We really don't even need a page for dragons that are more dangerous than the big bad, what with both The Big Bad and The Dragon already mentioning that often being the case.
Every little variation doesn't necessitate another page.
That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes
Of course, you are one of those people. You believe that there should be less tropes because they are all too specific.
I, on the other hand, believe in "the more, the merrier". I like more tropes created and more tropes listed. I guess we're opposites in that way.
Anyway, a Big Bad can be a servent to a Bigger Bad if that Bigger Bad isn't involved in the Big Bad's actions enough. For example, Mard Geer from Fairy Tail is technically E.N.D's servant. But E.N.D is currently trapped in a book with no direct influence over Mard. Even so, Mard seems completely devoted to unsealing E.N.D, but not under his orders.
Post 11 sounds good, some series have The Dragon use the seemingly Big Bad for a variety of reasons and the big bad just turns out to be a Big Bad Wannabe and possibly just a mouth piece. Pretty Cure Splash Star is the example that comes to mind.
It's very much a spoiler trope though.
edited 3rd Jan '15 8:06:35 PM by Memers
You Give Me Fever
Well, not against more tropes per se, butotherwise that's right. I could even think of Bigger Bad-Big Bad Dragon possibilities but couldn't imagine a writer actually using any such scenario, just seemed like a violation of the Law of Conservation of Detail. That example you gave does seem sensible enough, but I guess you'd just put it under Bigger Bad and Big Bad.
It's not that "Dragon is bigger than but not the big bad." doesn't exist. The Prophecy's plan to tear down Ring of Honor was all Christopher Daniels but Xavier was the one people had to beat.Jimmy Rave was the crown Jewel of the Embassy, but it was Prince Nana flying them in. AJ Styles held the top title in New Japan Pro-Wrestling, but he was only there in the first place because of Machine Gun Karl Anderson, who ran Bullet Club.
But you know, when Fortune underwent their face turn and Conspiracy Redemption AJ Styles, the one to beat, still looked to Ric Flair for guidance(till he turned on the group but I digress). Daffney is obviously the leader of her All Star Squad but The Buddy System do most of the work. Will there be a Hero In Chief page in relation to Big Good? Well, Amazing Kong is easily the most dangerous squad member, a Lancer in chief page in regards to the hero? Well, there are two people in the Buddy System. Co Heroes? Daffney founded the company along with Lexie Fyfe, who also makes regular appearances. Big Good Duumvirate? Sorry if that's too much straw. You're all free to disagree with me (as the existence of such pages shows).
edited 3rd Jan '15 8:55:54 PM by IndirectActiveTransport
That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes
A Dragon Behind The Man would accept orders from The Big Bad, do the dirty work by maybe playing The Heavy, and such, the Big Bad Wannabe gets all the bravado such as taunting the heroes and such only for The Reveal to happen that the Big Bad was just a wannabe or a Puppet King and The Dragon is the true threat and has been pulling the strings for the sham.
edited 3rd Jan '15 11:13:01 PM by Memers
Serocco
Wouldn't Saren and Sovereign fit that?
In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
No, the game made it pretty clear that Sovereign was the Big Bad or at least the Bigger Bad and Saren was just being manipulated. That never changed over the course of the game.
Chair Man
Regarding the opening post, only definitions 1 and 3 fits Dragon-in-Chief, the #2 fits Hypercompetent Sidekick and the #4 fits Dragon Behind The Man.
MAX POWER KILL JEEEEEEEEWWWWW
Clock is set.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Yeah, a lot of these examples cross over with Hypercompetent Sidekick.
edited 17th Feb '15 2:57:10 PM by SatoshiBakura
This is supposedly when The Dragon is stronger than the Big Bad. Though at the same time, it's also when The Dragon is the true Big Bad and serves a Big Bad Wannabe whom they may even manipulate. The trope is rather ambiguous and seems to boil down to The Dragon being the main antagonist.
When the Big Bad is the The Dragon to a Big Bad Wannabe:
- In Iron Man 2 Ivan Vanko is recruited by Justin Hammer as the only one who knows how to mimic Tony Stark's Iron Man tech. But he constantly berates Hammer for the quality of his Iron Man knockoffs and at the end of the film he takes control of Hammer's battle drones and becomes the final villain.
When The Dragon is stronger than the Big Bad:- Zabuza from Naruto is this to Gatou. Gatou may be a billionaire shipping magnate and crime lord, but he stands no chance of defeating Team Kakashi without this badass missing-nin.
When The Dragon is a more direct threat than the Big Bad, regardless of how powerful they are.- Justified:
- Theo Tonin is The Big Bad of the fourth season, but never appears in person, leaving his left-hand man, Nicky Augustine, to coordinate the search for Drew Thompson (while he and his right-hand, Elias Marcos, make tracks for Tunisia). Augustine succeeds in antagonizing the entire cast, turning Raylan Givens and Boyd Crowder against him, and by the last episode of the season, everyone's goals have shifted from "putting Theo in prison" to "getting rid of Augustine."
When The Dragon is actually The Man Behind the Man (sub to The Dragon serving a Big Bad Wannabe):Now the discription says "Though he's nominally subordinate to the "real" Big Bad, he's just so much smarter, stronger or more skillful (and almost always scarier) that it's clear who's really the bigger menace." But the Laconic says: "The main villain's right-hand man is actually a greater threat than he is." (If you want a hint, look at the potholes)