Discussion YMMV / SuperSmashBros

Those are a vocal minority. If we included the opinion of all vocal minority complaints, 95% of the Smash roster would seem like Base Breakers. I mean, not EVERYONE likes even the likes of Villager, Mega Man, Dedede, Wario, Marth, Fox, Samus, Ness, Sheik, Ganondorf, Ike, Shulk, etc. That doesn't make noting their detractors relevant.

Besides, Ridley was one of the most discussed specific conversations on Twitter.

Looking back at it now, Young Link does not fit the bar much. Even since Melee, most of the Links incarnations have been either Adult Link or Toon Link in my opinion. Correct me if I am wrong though.

I also was not sure how popular he was in the Melee era as I did not own a Nintendo Gamecube then so I kinda put in percentages for that reason.

I don't think that ALBW!Zelda will fit the criteria either way unless ALWB gets a remake and a whole bunch of sequels in which I don't think it will happened.

Ridley is the one example out of those three that I feel really qualifies over being an Ensemble Dark Horse but I am willing to wait until the game is released in order to see how well he plays.

Does anybody else have any further opinions on this? I want to listen to everybody's opinions on this.

There... uh really is no dicussion. It's an In Universe Only Trope so it belongs on the main page with an Invoked tag.

It's a relatively recent decision so there's still misuse out there. I see Zero Context Examples all over the wiki, doesn't mean that they're allowed.

Sounds to me like he either misunderstood or deliberately misrepresented the opposing side's argument. Most people are aware that Ganon is only a semi-clone now, they're just upset that he's a clone at all when he's one of Nintendo's most iconic villains and has plenty of potential for a more interesting moveset. They don't claim he's hardly been overhauled compared to other clones, just that he hasn't been overhauled as much as he needs.

Now you could say that it's still unfair to want Ganon to get a completely unique moveset and not them. But Roy and Falco are, to be blunt, far less important characters, and at least make logical sense as clones of the characters they are, since they're from the same series and have similar jobs/roles. Ganon has absolutely nothing in common with Capt Falcon other than having a model that could be placed on Falcon's skeleton. So I don't think it's unfair to place higher priority on Ganon getting his own moveset than them. Even then, I doubt many people would be against them getting made more unique, there's just not as much demand for it as there is for Ganon, for the reasons stated above.

It's shoehorning. Reads like someone trying to find another reason to cram in gripes about the character that don't fit the trope.

Ridiculously good combined with annoying sound effects and being a Kid Appeal Character can do that... plus during the times when he's good, you had to use or fight Diddy all the time.

No.

For now I edited it so that it doesn't say he's banned from all competitive play. Only Arima can say exactly where they got their info from.

Periphery Hatedom is Flame Bait I believe, and I'm not sure if your examples qualify regardless since multiplayer modes are meant to be enjoyed with multiple people.

No.

Yeah, he's right. That's misuse.

I've never heard of it, but it's YMMV.

Just don't overstate how common it is and I think it could stay.

Agreed. Also, we cannot say that would even be for sure. That's purely Wild Mass Guessing at best. We know the 3DS cannot handle the regular Ice Climbers. We cannot say anything about the Wii U version, until Sakurai says something. And that's also proof it's unlikely to be the case.

To be fair, based on what Sakurai said about the Ice Climbers working perfectly fine on the Wii U version, it seems to imply (IMO) that he did test them by playing 8-player matches. Besides, if they didn't work on the Wii U when using 8 of them, I feel that Sakurai would have said something.

When Sakurai spoke about the Ice Climbers, 8 Player Smash hadn't been announced yet. He might not have said anything because he didn't want to reveal it yet, and didn't say anything after the reveal because there was no need.

Have another Suggestion. How about we remove the Tier Induced Scrappy since it seems to repeat itself for certain characters and its not organized from high and low. (And it still doesn't apply to Palutena at all by definition given her smash attacks are faster than her tilts.)

Another thing, the lack of a tier in the 4th Smash Brothers should by default remove the characters. This will only end up like the Sonic incident where he was bottom tier until people started winning and was removed altogether.

Since no one will respond, I removed Palutena for these reasons.

Definition of Tier Induced Scrappy: The other, more common to RP Gs, is a character who is widely hated because they just suck in gameplay terms. They might be the nicest person in the world, but if they're The Load in combat or gameplay, their fate is decided. A Low Tier Induced Scrappy has no Magikarp Power; they're bad from the start and there just doesn't seem to be any point in training them when there are other, more rewarding characters on hand.

The post admits the tier isn't even out to judge a character on how good or bad. As much as I dislike the tier, once it comes out to determine who a character is bad with match up instead of factually incorrect opinions then she can come back on the post.

On the other hand, because Little Mac is used a lot, he would be in this category (even though he's not invincible like the post claims he is one on one)

Finally, the post only brings up negatives while ignoring the positives

Finally, this is something that really irked me how multiple pages are repeating the same thing such as on the meme page and her character profile. Palutena is not a Master of None but a Mighty Glacier who is slow and powerful. A Master of None implies that she's horrible at everything she does (which is incorrect because her range is wrong and her counter works the same way as the Fire Emblem and her reflect pushes people off and reflects). And I'm calling it now that its someone who just doesn't like Palutena because I'm not seeing anything that implies that she's bad (because if she's so bad, she wouldn't be used so much in glory mode where all the action takes place like where Little Mac is on).

Tier Induced Scrappy is a YMMV trope for a reason, and the description needs to be updated anyway. Her entry should stay because in competitive she is considered a bad character; her Ensemble Dark Horse status doesn't affect her tier status.

But you gave ONE reason. The only reason is that her tilt moves leaves her open if she misses. If this is the case, why isn't Shulk listed since all of his smash attacks leave him open range be damned? Or how Pit and Dark Pit's side b leave them open if they miss? Or how Megaman's attacks are slow and leave him open? It comes off as a huge double standard and I'm STILL not seeing anything of anyone saying Palutena is crap except on this one page saying she is despite being a Mighty Glacier.

YMMV is based on opinion but its baseless without proof because I can add X character is crap because of X, Y and Z and by definition of the lower range of Tier Induced Scrappy is THEY HAVE TO BE BAD AT EVERYTHING. I listed Palutena's pros and cons but apparently the one thing that makes her bad is her tilts being slow and suddenly she's in that category? Remove it or give extreme detail because the way it is now shows that someone doesn't know how to play her competitively and is using YMMV as an excuse to vent about someone they can't play.

Plus if you want to go by tier, you want to know who is at the bottom? DK apparently. Palutena is way higher than what the example lists her as.

(NOTE: I did not find rules on discussion and remarks like here. If I'm going about necroing the wrong way, please poke me)

"Although Smash Bros 3DS has no true official tier list as of yet, a lot of people are saying that Palutena is one of the worst characters in the game due to her default specials being considered very highly impractical and her tilts being very slow and punishable."

Personally, I think this Tier-Induced Scrappy entry is wrong as-is. For starters, SSB 4 does not have tier lists that are regarded as official just yet, and the one list I've seen does not rank Palutena that low. The trope may be a YMMV trope, but examples (under YMMV) still need to qualify for the trope. In this case, one of three things is possible:

1) Tier-Induced Scrappy does indeed have to do with tier lists, in which case Palutena does not yet belong to that trope because those are rare. 2) Tier-Induced Scrappy is not about tier lists, which means it might have a name issue. Palutena would be a valid example if this is true. 3) There's actually high-profile tier lists that do rank Palutena that low, which means I'm just being an idiot on this front.

Second, I recently learned that the competitive scene has not yet agreed on whether Custom Specials are to be banned. I quote (though translated) "They are still in the process of testing this". That's highly important because it's not only the main gimmick of Palutena, but also very much crucial for Palutena's functioning in general. I'm putting aside my genuine hatred of banning Palutena's "customs". Could go in detail about this too, but I'll keep it brief: If custom specials aren't banned, there's more to her than the mentioned "default moveset".

Finally, and this one has to do with the following response:

"Her entry should stay because in competitive she is considered a bad character; her Ensemble Darkhorse status doesn't affect her tier status."

There is next to no tier status yet, as detailed earlier. And to get to the point: If Palutena is competitively bad, why does the entry simply say "one of the worst characters in the game"? The YMMV page, and I very much believe Tv T does in general, acknowledges that the Casual-Competitive Conflict is extremely severe in SSB. Given that, it's a terrible idea to not explicitly state the side of the conflict. In this case, if Palutena is considered bad "competitively", state it as such. Right now, the entry is implying that she is in fact plain bad, and when you have as many playstyles as there are in Smash Bros, that's pretty much completely impossible. You can't be bad at that many things. Again, the entry right now is not okay, but if Tv T insists on keeping it, I highly suggest you at least add that "competitive" bit, because as is, the entry is just begging for trouble.

I'm not touching the page myself. For all I know I could be editing it wrong.

I was the one who recently readded it and I'm sorry I caused problems; I hadn't realized that it had already been discussed. My reasoning was that I was aware of fan response that disliked certain characters in favor of others that had been cut, which is basically the laconic version of the trope. But now that I've actually read the ATT discussion, I do mostly agree with the verdict - I think the Lucario/Mewtwo example might deserve some mention somewhere, because it seems like the "Mewtwo being replaced" idea is still on people's minds enough for them to joke about it; but other than that, I do agree with the consensus now that I've actually read its reasoning. Again, I'm sorry I caused trouble.

It's fine. You didn't know and fully had no malicious intent.

That said, I would say only Pichu and Lucario could be an inversion, as Mewtwo and Lucario are actually nothing alike outside of a slightly similar Neutral B. I've been doing some actual research on this. Lucario does not play any similar role to Mewtwo. Every Pokemon was popular, so that doesn't count. Almost all of them were in a movie(including Pichu) as the star(s). Again, doesn't work.

Lucario has an ideal version of Pichu's gimmick, which isn't like by everyone. Damage is a key point to how his gimmick works. It holds him back in a way much like Pichu. They're also both the latest Gen additions. This is the only valid one because Pichu is a Scrappy. And it's an inversion because Lucario was his only potential replacement possible. They actually have more in common than Mewtwo and Lucario, as one slightly similar move does not make them very similar at all. Anthro is pushing it. The movie thing means little since it could apply for both. I wouldn't list an inversion either, though. If no straight examples exist, should we bother?

I do not remember if Roy was actually physically stronger than Marth. He's faster, though. However, as we know, they were all planned, and both Mewtwo and Roy had more than just garbage data. They had victory screens too. They were fully intended to be in the game. My question is if these intentions matter. From what I remember of the trope, they're a direct replacement for the character's role, and wouldn't that be strictly a standard that the creator set?

As for a previous thing, where somehow Mewtwo and Lucario are both the "Ensemble Darkhorse" 4th Pokemon character, that's... not even possible. I know this was in ATT, but I might as well say it here too; Sakurai explicitly made it clear there is 39 total characters in Brawl. PT was not counted as a true one for his purposes. Another thing is that Jigglypuff was likely added late into development. He obviously made Pikachu first. If he brought back Mewtwo, he probably was next. That would leave Lucario, or Squirtle/Ivysaur/Charizard next. If Mewtwo was made after PT, then that makes Mewtwo or Lucario the exact 5 Pokemon made. With Jigglypuff the 6th. Basically, slots don't equal characters to Sakurai. At least during Brawl. He basically separated everyone but Mii Fighters(who are listed as Miis in some of the record data).

Lastly, we should flesh out the entries slightly(any that would stay, anyway, since an inversion is still better than no legitimate example otherwise). The Toon Link one is just flame bait in disguise as it's worded.

... why?

I thought Septimus Heap said to take this to the Scrappy Cleanup thread?

Regardless, I don't believe any of the examples qualify and should just be cut. If you haven't read my reasoning in the ATT thread, it boils down to the replacements being to popular to be considered for any Scrappy trope (Tier Induced Scrappy notwithstanding because that one's weird).

He said that could work as a legit idea. Wasn't actually demanding it. But if that works too, sure.

While I agree with that too, I don't see many roles being filled either(either a Kanto Mon leaving for a Kanto character using 3 Kanto Mons, or a Movie/Mascot Character replacing another Movie/Mascot character while both have a damage gimmick), the key point as well. Hence why an inversion for Pichu makes sense. But that's about it.

@ Karxrida: I may have misunderstood, but I thought that was suggested to help organize a cleanup to the Replacement Scrappy page itself (either by weeding out examples that encourage errors like what's posted in the original post of this discussion, or re-writing that page's description)? If I was mistaken, I apologize for the confusion.

I see no problems with discussing entries either here or here.

... but we discussed the entries. It's near unanimous that they don't apply. So the idea of fleshing out the entries (for characters that it doesn't apply to) seems nonsensical.

There's an inversion of the trope we can use, but none can apply otherwise.

If not that, we can just discuss entries unrelated to Smash in the cleanup thread then.

"Near universal"? Huh, might want to back it up.

I was speaking about the game play mechanics. I should have been clearer about that. When the listed complaint is something like "most/all the changes are an improvement over Brawl, but there aren't enough of them," then that seems a bit light for Contested Sequel, which indicates a much bigger rift.

Moreover, my main point is that the console version has yet to be released, and that could completely change everything. Comparing handheld games to console games is a bit tricky. Should we not wait until the full release before making a final call?

This Wiki:

"Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo Wii U/3DS is trying to do this for players that prefer Melee without alienating fans of Brawl. For the most part, it seems to be working."

Everyone is happy about the removal of tripping.

The game's balanced roster is mentioned in the Moment of Awesome page. Brawl is frequently criticized for it's poorly balanced roster.

"The hardcore fans of Super Smash Bros. generally took a "once bitten, twice shy" approach to Wii U / 3DS after the relatively underwhelming Brawl, and the early build displayed at E3 2014 and subsequent promotional events that suffered many of the same problems as Brawl didn't help matters. Then, the finished game was released, which altered the mechanics from the demo build completely, along with doing things like adding onscreen tips that explained details and tactics previously hidden to most players, fans are beginning to warm back up to it."

- Win Back The Crowd

Professional Reviews:

"Nintendo’s signature fighting game series, which brings together dozens of familiar and obscure game characters in chaotic four-player battles, has charmed casual players and hardcore fighting game aficionados alike. The 2001 version for Game Cube, Super Smash Bros. Melee, has been so perennially popular with fans that it was a featured game at this year’s EVO tournament. But the follow-up for Wii, Super Smash Bros. Brawl, was roundly rejected by that same community. It was slow and clunky, with none of the depth or fast-paced gameplay of its predecessor, and it introduced several mechanics that annoyed everyone.

"Going into the latest Smash Bros., which will be released October 3 for the portable 3DS (a Wii U version follows later this year), I had little faith it would recapture the magic.

"I’ve never been happier to be wrong."

http://www.wired.com/2014/09/smash-bros-3ds-review/

"The Wii's Super Smash Bros. Brawl featured online multiplayer, but it was a laggy mess at the best of times. Fortunately, the 3DS game is leaps and bounds beyond its predecessor, but the functionality of online play seems to hinge on the geographical location of other players."

http://www.gamesradar.com/super-smash-bros-3ds-review/

"The Smashing itself feels slightly faster and more technical than Super Smash Bros. Brawl — though not quite to the esoteric degree of Melee. I don't possess the acumen to dissect the franchise's more arcane maneuvers, but the feel of the game is a bit less floaty and less gimmicky than Brawl."

http://www.polygon.com/2014/9/26/6847267/super-smash-bros-3ds-review

"The 3DS game lacks some widely panned mechanics from Brawl, particularly the random tripping that would cause characters to simply fall over face first as well as the general feeling of a low-gravity floatiness. In their stead are a bevy of subtle new additions aimed at both casual players and the core crowd. The result feels more honest and broadly appealing than any previous iteration."

http://www.gamespot.com/reviews/super-smash-bros-3ds-review/1900-6415883/

"Series vets should know that Smash Bros. for 3DS feels much more in line with the methodical, somewhat floaty feel of Brawl than the ridiculously fast pace and palpable weightiness of Melee. Even if the 3DS gameplay isn't precisely what Melee fanatics demand, it provides enough depth for the hardcore crowd, while still being incredibly entertaining to casual players. Thankfully, randomized elements like Brawl's ill-conceived tripping mechanic have been removed from the equation to achieve maximum enjoyment for players of all kinds."

http://www.gamesradar.com/super-smash-bros-3ds-review/

"Enter Smash 3DS. Not only has it rekindled my love for the series, but I have a feeling that once the Wii U version hits, living rooms will be smashing for hours all over again."

http://www.destructoid.com/review-super-smash-bros-for-nintendo-3ds-281404.phtml

Other Reviews:

Many people here talk about the improvements over Brawl. There are admittedly some complaints concerning the lag in online matches, the awkwardness of playing on a handheld, and occasionally the characters, but those reasons are not listed under Contested Sequel. Additionally, they might not be present in the Wii U version. What is also interesting to note is that the more recent reviews are generally positive.

http://www.metacritic.com/game/3ds/super-smash-bros-for-nintendo-3ds/user-reviews

This one points out a lot of improvements over Brawl.

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/hated-brawl-super-smash-bros-3ds/

...Not everybody is happy with tripping gone. I've outright seen topics to return it on Smashboards alone. Mostly were closed for fighting.

It's not near universal, man. Everybody's entirely different. I've seen it get a crapton of hate, some for the cuts, others for holding back potential stuff due to the 3DS...

Many do say it's an improvement, but it's far more subjective.

I suppose you learn something new every day. Still, a lot of people certainly don't miss tripping.

Again, I was talking about the general consensus of the game mechanics. I suppose 'near universal' was a bit strong of a description, but a majority seems to think that it's an overall improvement over Brawl in terms of gameplay. Otherwise, there wouldn't be entries under Win Back the Crowd.

The featured reason for the hatred under the initial Contested Sequel entry was that "it didn't change enough from Brawl." The major criticisms that I've read seem to be directed at the changes rather than the lack of changes. Aside from disliking the defense gameplay style, nothing was specified. Character cuts weren't mentioned. Neither was lost potential due to the 3DS version. Awkwardness of playing on a handheld didn't even come up. Lag in online modes and/or multiplayer wasn't pointed out. Meanwhile, the Brawl entry has numerous specific reasons (floaty physics, tripping, slower-paced combat, poor character balance, etc.) for what made it a Contested Sequel.

Either way, it is best to wait for the Wii U version before making any final calls. From the trailer alone, it's already looking to be a different experience from the 3DS.

Except that he said differently for this game, when asked a year ago, he only said that he wasn't thinking about DLC at the current time, he never said he wouldn't consider it later down the road. On top of that, there's a number of features in the data that show that the game could be built with DLC in mind such as certain text and icons. So the DLC speculation is completely valid and should be left as is, at least until Sakurai says concretely one way or the other.

For what Sakurai said on the matter (for Smash): http://www.gamedynamo.com/article/showarticle/6019/en/masahiro_sakurai_discusses_dlc_controls_and_more_for_wii_u3ds_super_smash_bros

For the DLC thing: http://smashboards.com/threads/textures-leaked-ridley-isaac-and-bandana-dee-trophies-not-present-updated-new-evidence-found.368798/ http://mynintendonews.com/2014/09/23/looks-as-though-super-smash-bros-3ds-could-be-getting-stage-dlc/ (Note the "See stages you have downloaded.")

That 8 player thing seems incredibly dubious. If Sakurai couldn't handle 4 Ice Climbers, what makes the 8 player thing for the 3DS unless its a compatibility with the Wii U. Just sounds more like wishful thinking like when there was suppose to be 4 more characters and the lock icon in all star mode was just a Mii.

You know how much I would love for Isaac to be in but the reason his trophy and probably Ridley's trophy is because they're Wii U exclusive trophies?

The 8 character thing is speculation based on the data, it may amount to something or it may not, it's just playing around with what we know.

As for Isaac, even if he did have trophy in the Wii U version (which I doubt since he's exclusively a portable character and would make more sense on the 3DS version), I don't think that would exclude him or the others from DLC. The trophies don't have any influence on the game, so it wouldn't be that troublesome to include them.

The trophies is a problem though. When you beat classic and all star mode, you get a trophy for that character. Characters who have a trophy of them pretty much confirms they are not in the game like Ice Climbers and Lucas. It wouldn't make sense for them to have an original trophy and then have a DLC only trophy for classic and all star mode.

The argument that "Well Mario and Zelda have multiple trophies of them" is not the same thing because its a different game every single trophy. There are Paper Mario, Mario Kart, Mario Gold, Babies etc while the Zelda verse is a different universe of that character each time. It wouldn't make sense for King K. Rool to have another trophy despite his description summing up his character. A character without a trophy is more likely to be DLC than a character with a trophy or a character like the Chorus Men because they are 3 characters. That's why there is literally no hope for the DK cast since they already have trophies.

I do wonder about Isaac if he was just an assist. His move seems to be something that might not process in the game but would work on the Wii U version.

Yet nothing says that they can't go back and tweak the names of the existing trophies, or mark off the DLC character trophies differently (ex. Dixie (DLC)).

Regardless, it's completely assumption to assume any appearance equals their complete omission from being playable via DLC as there's nothing saying that it can't be the case. Hell, many different fighting games have had characters ascend from being cameos to becoming playable in DLC or updated releases (ex. Firebrand and Ghost Rider back in U/Mv C 3). With trophies in particular, that type of restriction doesn't really work as one, those characters would be expected to be present as trophies anyway as their popularity and importance would have them get a nod like that, and two, it doesn't seem practical to ignore a character just because they have what basically amounts to a cameo.

As for Isaac, I doubt it as his move doesn't seem like something that would be too hindering to the 3DS considering other Assists.

The same argument is used with Ridley though. He's teased under boss category and suddenly he's playable. Metal Face is teased at the end of Shulk's trailer and people already know he's a boss. People take this as proof rather than using the same assumption excuse.

And that sounds crappy because its not the same thing. Phoenix Wright being playable after showing up in the ending is a cameo but the same couldn't be said with Nightcrawler. Being in an ending results in being an ascended extra. Trophies though imply that you have to make at least 2 trophies with different description and poses talking about something else about them. Mario and Link have been in so many games they have different descriptions per game. King K. Rool has pretty much become irrelevant not showing up in any recent game and his description pretty much is the gist of him. He's the Bowser to Donkey Kong.

Even if I'm cynical I'll still be crossing my fingers for Isaac.

I'm not going to get into a Ridley argument, the only thing I'll say is that Ridley is a poor example as you ignored what I said before: nothing implies one way or the other that trophies can't have ascended roles via DLC, Ridley has an implied role of being a boss as that's what has been shown. We don't have a line from Sakurai saying that trophies can't be DLC, and we don't have previous examples to work off of, so it's all assumptions at this point, unlike Ridley who has an implication going one way.

Firstly, of course not everyone rose from being a cameo, but that wasn't the point, what the point is that some characters did rise from that. They went from not having a playable appearance to having one, so if that happened, why exactly is it impossible for the same to happen with trophies, which again, are basically cameos? Secondly, what would be the problem of having two more? It's not like the characters in question lack any other potential description or lore that can be made nor would making a trophy out of them twice over really be that taxing. For the former in particular, you're making it more restrictive then it really is as it's not that difficult to draw from another part of a character's story. With King K. Rool for instance, he has many different disguises and costumes that he's used over the years, refer to that. He seems to have a knowledge of different styles of combat due to his use of different weapons and abilities throughout his series, why not refer to that as well, particularly since this is a fighting game? There's so much that they can say with these characters that the description of the one trophy is hardly the only thing that defines them.

To be honest, it seems you're trying to make a limitation where there is none implied. Nothing says that the trophies are excluded from being used, we have examples of characters rising from cameo appearances in other games that can easily reflect in this one with the trophies, and finally, making two more trophies for these characters would hardly be that troublesome or taxing. The thing is, it can easily happen, and nothing that has been said is a noted limitation from them becoming playable in DLC.

Edit: Btw, another piece of support came out for the 8 player smash theory, the announcer has hidden clips that says "8-player Smash": https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hTaS492JXgg

Yes because the whole "shadow thing" totally proved everyone's point when he wasn't in the 3DS roster. Watch if he's a boss in the Wii U version and we see it in November, then all that speculation would have been for nothing when Sakurai himself hinted in the picture of the day that an enemy from Samus' past will show up. Who else was a villain in Metroid Other M that is Samus' enemy? At this point, expecting Ridley to make it in is only going to result in disappointment and more whining from the Metroid fanbase overall who have done nothing but complain the entire time.

So does that mean we'll get Ice Climbers even though they got a trophy? Of course not. Sakurai outright said they won't work in the 3DS. Chorus Men are in the same boat. If two characters couldn't work, what makes three work unless you decide to have only one despite the fact they're known for being a group of 3? Or the fact that the roster has to be kept the same or the 3DS are cheated out while the Wii U gets more characters. The assumption that anything can happen is what angered everyone in the first place when the all star lock despite the entire roster being shown was just a Mii customization. That threw all speculation out the window and I'm not going through that disappoint again because people got their hopes up of things that weren't true but wanted it to be true. So we have to get hyped up only for a huge disappointment when its actually true given all the evidence contradicts the Tower of Smash leak because even in those voice clips you showed me, there is nothing about The Tower of Smash.

Interesting clip. Wonder if 8 player Smash will just be rotation mode though as that lag is going to make it impossible if the lag is already bad with 4 players online. And there's the fact this stuff could just have been cut but I doubt it given that the Wii U can support all of these modes except 8 players without expecting the internet to be bad on one person's end.

In my opinion, anything DLC related should be listed under WMG and anything found in the data is not conclusive due to Dummied Out being a thing. Even for the Pokemon pages we weren't allowed to have mentions of Diancie or Mega Lati@s until they were officially revealed despite the entire internet knowing they existed in the data.

@Akira As I said, I'm not getting into the Ridley/Metroid debate, so please take those complaints somewhere else as they don't belong in the main conversation. The 8 Player thing I agree sounds interesting, but will see what happens.

You're using isolated examples. The Ice Climbers and Chorus Men are not going to be playable due to issues completely unrelated to being trophies, they're not in the game due to technical issues only. The same issues don't exist for the others (at least as far as we know). You're trying to make an A=B=C argument where A and C are completely unrelated. As for the two rumors, there's a difference between humoring for the sake of speculation and believing (even though a small few do play into the latter sometimes). There's a reason Tower of Smash is just considered a rumor and not a leak, it's just something brought up that may (key word here) be true, but may not be, that's it. Same with the belief that we may've gotten more characters before the 3DS released, we could've gotten more, but we didn't and to be fair, there was reason to believe that it could've been the case due to the All-Star lock. Obviously it didn't pan out, but that's speculation for you.

Really, the point I'm trying to make here is that it's just assumptions at this point as we don't know how the DLC will be decided. Assuming one thing over the other is not going to get you anywhere at this point as it could go either way, and the trophies being DLC thing is the same thing. We just have to wait and see.

@Karxrida, I can see that point. I guess depending on how everyone else feels about it, we could move it to that section until we get more information.

To note, we have an idea of Chorus Men possibly being playable, but no data to back it up. They may not have been planned or worked on. Sneaky Enemy spirit helps, but doesn't outright prove it. We need to find some kind of character data or a statement from Sakurai trying to put him in. We had it for other cases, of course.

Also, 8-Player Smash and full out DLC(modes/patches/character/course) is entirely confirmed, so... but I do agree to put who we want as DLC(even if it's for a hazard/assist like Ridley) as WMG'ing. If people want to wait till the Wii U version releases and he's absolutely not playable, no problem. We can still list him as "not playable" regardless. We don't need to say "at this time" because examples are not recent.

Plus you know the hypocrisy of adding Pichu in this list? Get angry at Dark Pit who is a clone. Demand another worse clone of Pikachu to come back with justifications. Like really? Will remove in 24 hours because the logic fails as bad as every character who was cut being added to Alas Poor Scrappy.

I've seen more than one person ask, so... I don't see how it can't apply. Every character has a fanbase, some more vocal than others. One person I saw named Mewtwomaster2002 was very specifically a Pichu fan, to the point he acted like he wanted him more than Mewtwo(or that I remember). Point being, it's a very applicable trope. I want him back badly too, and he'd be a nice filler spot for fun.

Is it Darth Megatron? He tends to... mention the Pokemon Anime in a lot of other mediums.

Let me check.

Some quick scanning reveals he made at least most of those edits.

I noticed that too, but wasn't sure if I should say anything.

So... is he wrong? I've been taking his word that Pokémon Speak is hated by fans of the Pokemon games, as I am a fan of them but not really tied to the fandom.

I mean, some of it probably could stand to be pruned for the sake of being a bit contentious, but is there a sizable fandom that feels the same as him?

From what I've seen of fanfics and other members of the fandom I interact with Pokémon Speak is an accepted (though not universally loved) part of the franchise. Many fans simply assume it's how Pokemon talk at this point.

Regardless it's kinda annoying to see so much natter about the Pokemon anime on a Smash page.

I have personally seen people criticize Smash for using the Pokemon anime portrayal due to either a personal bias against the show, the show being non-canon, or due to the idea that using the anime to portray pokemon goes against the point of this series. I think that mentioning that this criticism exists in YMMV is justified, as long as the examples themselves don't take a side.

On that subject, I have to ask about Greninja's description in the YMMV. It seems much of the descriptions indicates that Greninja is loved for not being based on some major anime counterpart (despite the fact the XY anime had just recently around that time), yet it also place Greninja as a subject of accusation for possibly being based on potential counterparts in the form of Ash's Froakie and Ninja Giot's Greninja.

I personally see Greninja's inclusion the same way as Lucario, the new star Pokémon that Game Freak promotes on several medias (Games, Movies, Anime, Smash Bros). But it seems there two conflicting tales of whether or not Greninja is based on the anime in this page, and many of it is leaning towards it's based on the games not anime. I would like to see some clean up on this issue.

It's not, people are hating on the Pokémon Speak, which is a major sour spot for the Periphery Demographic (speaking from experience here). Even then it's Love It or Hate It due to the Narm factor of Greninja's silly voice contrasting its otherwise cool appearance and demeanor.

Glad to finally hear someone else thinks that. At this point I just assumed it was just Darth Megatron's opinion. Good to hear that we're not just troping one guy's reactions.

Thanks for the clarification.

Makes sense, the older demographic not really liking Pokémon Speak is probably the reason it wasn't in Origins. On the Super Smash Bros. subpage, I'm trying to collectively and factually describe fans' opinions based on what I've seen on various boards rather than express my peeves with it (and mine alone)

Personally, I'm actually feeling a bit more kindly towards the anime (and Greninja), but that could change if they go the Best Wishes route again.

I can very well see a situation where a large number of characters are a Base Breaker, or even the entire cast. So I don't see a problem with it.

I do think its true that a huge cast can cause a number of Base Breakers, but I feel the problem is entries are added back and forth (Link and Ganondorf for instance were on there at some point in the past before being removed) and it might devolve into a generic "everyone is a base breaker" sort of thing, which would impede the communication of the trope (Consider Avatar: The Last Airbender, where all it says on there besides giving a few names, is "Pick a character" without giving a reason as to why).

Well, while Zero-Context Example is a problem, issue-fying the editors adding them and removing such examples is the best solution.

Not to mention some simply aren't true. Every Smasher has their fans and haters and the only way for things to stick is to look at the forum. I'm personally annoyed how the Pokemon ones like Pikachu is in Base Breaker for reasons not related to its fandom. The same with Peach. Even though I added IC to Base Breakers, I never saw them as a problem and beside them having their tournament haters, there wasn't any problem with them.

For me I feel like it has to be prominent in the fanbase instead of a vocal minority complaining because so far every clone is on the list and I'm thinking "Why aren't they in the same category? Why just out Dark Pit because of "Sakurai bias" and have the rest of them under Base Breaker?

Apparently Base Breaker is listed with "No Examples Please". Either we kill the list or transplant everything to Broken Base, assuming we're allowed to even do the latter.

Broken Base has examples and wicks, so it wouldn't be a problem.

But wouldn't Broken Base be too crowded? The way it is now, looks really sloppy.

I'd be inclined to split it off to its own article.

As long as we can keep it intelligent it seems alright.

Also, sorry about the sloppiness. :/

Yeah if Hilarious in Hindsight has its own page, so can Base Breaker even though I feel like it will just be used for everyone who isn't in the Ensemble Darkhorse category.

Which I want to bring up. Can we decide where Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings will be. They're under every character category and I find it incredibly sloppy. Ensemble Darkhorse, Base Breaker or Rescued from the Scrap Heap. It can't be all three of them because all of them imply something different.

It can be on all three, since they record opinions and opinions can vary from person to person.

Well here link with all final smash.

Dark pit after all he used staff as Final Smash. So made him 92% different to Pit.

But i think he still Base Breaker for everyone that not want clone or that wanna another like Ridley for example.

Kind of obnoxious how people whining about how he's a clone are just grasping straws saying he has the same final smash as Zelda/Sheik never mind Duck Hunt Dog has the same final smash as Captain Falcon or how Dr. Mario has Mario and Lucina has Marth or Falco is still a clone. -sigh- Their logic fails every time.

Did people honestly think we were getting Ridley?! Ridley isn't even popular in Japan. If he can't get in this Smash Brothers, he'll never be playable. This has been going on since Brawl (or maybe Melee. I wasn't an internet kid to go all the way back) and no matter how much the fans shout for Ridley, we have not got him yet we ask for Shulk and he got in very quickly.

Is it necessary to whine about Ridley?

Look at a Little Mac, he's the perfect example of why character popularity in Japan isn't as relevant as it used to be.

Yes because even after not confirmed for Smash 4, now its a declaration of DLC and he will be in the game. If he's a boss, people will be in denial. These forums are just praying on the desperation at this point and its coming off as obnoxious to the point Ridley has an entire page constantly edited by fans and haters.

It was mostly shrugs if you look at the reaction rather than a few translated responses. They whined about one character because he was American and most characters are based on their favorites anyway. Why we still have Jigglypuff. Why clones don't get a shrug in the JP fandom and probably why everyone is mad that Tharja trophy got removed (typical).

"got way too many people who like it less than Melee"

Huh. On which evidence?

Well for one, the aforementioned Contested Sequel entry.

For another, just google "Brawl vs. Melee." The very first result is "Why is Melee better than Brawl."

Well, I could raise the same issue about Contested Sequel. And Even Better Sequel is a quality judgment, not a popularity one.

Mind you, I don't really care one way or another. I am raising this issue because 50% of all arguments and problems on YMMV articles come from people removing entries for insufficient reasons.

Brawl can stay under that, but with mention going to its Contested Sequel status as there already is, considering there are other pages that discuss varying sequel quality reactions like The Amazing Spider-Man 2. Besides, the actual trope page goes into detail about why it could arguably qualify (Namely the better critical reaction and the great sales) and Project M getting better remake remarks under that category is already there and worth mentioning.

I'd say remove Wolf and Ice Climbers as well, personally speaking and move them to the Base Breakers trope.

Add it when we see Dark Pit's final Smash. Otherwise, its just people jumping to conclusion that he is a 100% clone like Lucina.

People act surprise when he was already shown off and the first assumption was that Pit was wearing Dark Pit's outfit.

What pisses me off though is how he has his staff in his artwork and poses but doesn't use it. Unless this is his final smash.

Because the leaker won't even use Dark Pit and only showed off 2 of his abilities.

Plus I don't need to see any hypocritical statements in the scrappy section. Because so far the fanbase is justifying all the clones in the game (Lucina, Dr. Mario and Falco specifically as the minute he was used, the chat room exploded with cheers as he performs the same moves as Fox), but the only reason Dark Pit is getting flak is because of an already Broken Base of Kid Icarus and "Sakurai being bias" while we don't even have his final smash.

Where? I still see the lists both here and on the videogame tab.

Oh my page wasn't loading yesterday and deleted pretty much all of what was in Broken Base and Base Breaker. Its fixed now but it gave me a scare given what happened to another fandom...

That seems like a case for a merge, yeah.

I merged it but I deleted the Japanese fanbase reaction. I want a link of Japanese forums showing that they're angry like what with happened with Little Mac because I find it odd how they're still complaining about Little Mac when almost all of the characters are based on Japan's requested character.

The original tweet is irrelevant. A journalist said he had a personal interview with the man, and the whole context of that article is about the random tripping specifically. An article on a known gaming website is enough; we don't need a signed and certified affidavit. You're being a little pedantic here. I don't see anything that makes the article "unreliable."

Yes, we do need a direct statement from Sakurai, not an article that can't be properly sourced from the official statement.

And I'd appreciate it if you didn't call people names. Keep it completely civil, please.

That context is still worthless since that'd be assuming that Sakurai knew 100% what the interviewer meant(assuming the interviewer even said it word for word and didn't paraphrase at all), or that he even was saying random tripping was gone. We can only tell what the interviewer meant, but definitely not what Sakurai meant. It's not reliable, we already know we can't find the real tweet, which is the actual source. It too easily comes off as a potential biased source. There's no way to legitimately rely on it any more.

And yes, the original tweet is extremely relevant, since we don't even know if the article creator is being truthful at all. We're looking for Sakurai's official confirmation random tripping was gone(which there's no way to tell if he definitely meant that no matter what from his specific statement alone. It's purely WMG as it is now). Only the Tweet can tell us anything, and that's gone.

We're still better off just leaving it out to dry since the real source is gone, only left with a "I said this guy said" source. Which is of course unreliable for this wiki. We have to be a lot stricter than this.

Errr... did I miss some name-calling?

But anyway, I think referencing the interview is fine. We have no reason not to trust Kotaku, it's not a random blog but a fairly respecting video game journalism site.

I don't see any mention of forced tripping either way, so that can go. But then again, I don't think anyone had any issue with it so it's not really relevant to Scrappy Mechanic anyway.

The interview did not actually mention random tripping either. It's just apparent to some people.

And calling people "pedantic" is needlessly insulting.

We can't really take anything as confirmed from anyone but Sakurai. Kotaku isn't as reliable as him either. That, and he didn't confirm which kind of tripping would be taken out. Again, it's just better off left out since the article can't properly source the original conversation. No, being a good site doesn't make it as reliable as an official site either. It's not legitimate confirmation. If anything, he did say "No tripping will return" and then some did. Meaning that Lying Creator could too easily be in play right now. Likewise, with no source for the twitter, it's taking the word of a guy that Sakurai said something. Sorry, but I don't see how that's trustworthy enough. It's still unreliable to this day. It was reliable when we could reference or quote the exact twitter post. I looked for that twitter since I saw this article and still couldn't find it anyway. I'm really not so sure it was as real as we think it is.

We're better off keeping this in WMG'ing since the context of Sakurai's reply is not implied like the article writer's was originally.

That part of it is specifically referring to the people who consider Melee to be inherently better than Brawl.

(Late reply, but I've just reincorporated the discussion pages to my watchlist, didn't saw them before)

No, it isn't. In fact, one of the forum rules which also apply on the wiki is that drama importing is forbidden. Add the fact that the deletion of a warning (regarding the Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgment, no less) and the rule against complaining... well...

@Amagicalbadger: A tip for you: you might want to check Administrivia for all you need to know, as you broke three rules at once. You might get banned for that!

To clarify, the drama thing was only specific to the forums. Anyway, agreed regardless.

It's important to clarify that he was banned in what regions, as that is interesting information. But we don't need to delve heavily into it, as you can go to Smashboards for all your problems.

And yeah, I reported Amagicalbadger in the Ask The Tropers anyway. We took care of it, with some extra wiki magic as is. Hopefully, what we've said should be enough.

Likewise, I do hope that we won't need to ever lock YMMV.