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Bunni89
topic
09:40:49 AM Sep 25th 2012
Is the picture of Gilgamesh on the characters page actually OF him from this game? It looks too well rendered for the ps1 and weirdly seems to have him with only two arms.. I can't even recall a time he's shown up with two arms.. Especially offputting as his trope list mentions how he both has six arms and wears three additional cardboard cutout ones, when none of this is on the picture. Suggesting this image to replace it, but perhaps cropped
Bunni89
09:41:34 AM Sep 25th 2012
Zaptech
topic
03:19:42 AM Dec 28th 2011
This section was cut from the description:

Final Fantasy VIII deals with the conflict between childhood and adulthood, and examines the consequences of being forced to "grow up". The main characters are teenage orphans trained as soldiers from a young age and taught to suppress their emotions and free will for the sake of the mission. However, emotions cannot be so easily restrained in humans so young. The story about saving the world becomes a Framing Device for a journey of rediscovery between the main characters, as their human emotions come into conflict with their military upbringing, leading to tragedy, introspection, and triumph.

with the reasoning being that the troper in question "never saw this "message"" in the game. I'm wondering if I should restore it, alter the wording, or maybe consider putting it in Analysis instead. Thoughts?
AxelxGabriel
06:29:58 AM Dec 28th 2011
I don't wish to come off like I'm closed minded or 'didn't get it". Playing this game as much as I have, I can honestly say I get it. If there was ANY honest message I get from the game it was just about the love story. I guess I could see the part "soldiers from a young age and taught to suppress their emotions and free will for the sake of the mission" would apply to Squall, but the entire description come off like every character suppress their emotions, which quite frankly is not true in any sense the phrase. And even then, Squall didn't suppress his emotions because of being a See D, he suppressed them because he didn't want to get hurt again when Ellone was taken away from him.
JoieDeCombat
08:26:07 AM Dec 28th 2011
edited by JoieDeCombat
There are also clear instances in the cases of Quistis and Irvine. It really shows up around the assassination mission.

Quistis was promoted too young; she's an eighteen-year-old SeeD instructor who can't handle the emotional demands of the role, with the result that she plays favorites among her students (clearly favoring Squall over Seifer) and tries to cling to Squall for support that he's not equipped to provide (the scene at the Secret Area on the night of the graduation ball; also note that although she has seniority over the other SeeDs and should assume command of the team when she arrives in Timber, she quickly defers to Squall instead). She later jeopardizes a mission by leaving her post because she wants to apologize to Rinoa for what from a military perspective was an entirely justified Not a Game lecture, her emotions overriding her training.

Irvine blows it during the same mission for the same reason, in a case that's been discussed in great detail on the Headscratchers page. He's assigned to assassinate the sorceress, who turns out to be the woman who raised him after he was orphaned. He acts flaky and difficult when he joins the team because of that and the fact that they are his childhood friends and don't seem to recognize him or their target; he fails to tell anyone about his conflict of interest regarding the mission and tries to psych himself up by asking if Edea is "pure evil" and whether or not it's true that SeeDs aren't supposed to question their mission (dialogue with Squall on the way to their post for the assassination), then breaks down completely once he's in position on the carousel clock and can't go through with it until Squall talks him down. Subsequently (and in a healthier example), he breaks with his orders at Rinoa's urging in order to return to the D-District Prison and help the SeeDs escape.

Squall's case is also related. Ellone was the catalyst for his decision to suppress his emotions, but SeeD is the model he used to base his image of a "cool, tough, independent adult" on. If he hadn't been enrolled in military training so early, it's possible he could have learned better coping mechanisms. There's also a bit of dialogue in Timber that highlights the issue for the SeeDs in general, when Squall tells Rinoa, and is backed up unquestioningly by whichever of Zell or Selphie is present, that as SeeDs they will follow her orders regardless of their feelings or the potential risk to their own life, an outlook which Rinoa justly finds very sad.
AxelxGabriel
06:51:29 PM Dec 28th 2011
edited by AxelxGabriel
Quistis kinda came off more like she has a crush on Squall and it showed in her actions. While its true that could be construed as unable to handle he emotional demands, it still shows that she has clear emotions and acts on them. Also? All those actions they only happen on Disk 1! It's kinda hard honestly to see this message encompassing the entire game as it's only scene in a few scenes that don't even take up that much time in a single disk.

Irvine was NEVER a professional soldier. He came off more like a Mercenary trained by the garden, but he still lives by his own rules and way of life. Returning to save Squall and the others didn't seem like not following orders, but rather he thought it would be too dangerous to do so and to bring Rinoa(A Civilian) into what would be a war zone!

To be honest, I find the whole concept of Military life in this game like it's under-played. Like it's something more of a chore and inconvenience for the students. The whole idea of suppressing their emotions and free will doesn't mix with the way the Garden is even run! All of the students just act like regular highschool students with no real emotional scarring, The Headmaster Cid acts more like a surrogate father to all his students then some rigid and tough military trainer and really? I find it hard to believe See D has ANY standards when it comes to emotional state-of-mind when an airhead like Selphie is made one. (Not bashing on her as a character, I'm just saying her attitude would NEVER gel in any kind of Military upbringing or operation.)

I'm sorry, I'm just saying I can't support this message of every main character suffering from suppressed emotions and the so-called "conflict between childhood and adulthood" when at most it only applies to one character(The Main Character sure) and for the wrong reason!
Zaptech
12:44:28 AM Jan 9th 2012
I find it hard to believe See D has ANY standards when it comes to emotional state-of-mind when an airhead like Selphie is made one. (Not bashing on her as a character, I'm just saying her attitude would NEVER gel in any kind of Military upbringing or operation.)

Truth in Television. Generation Kill shoots down this notion with real life US Marines. Yes, people as aggressively violent and "airheaded" as Selphie not only occupy modern militaries, but they are actually members of elite special forces units like Force Recon. And they can still do their jobs quite well.
AxelxGabriel
02:57:49 AM Jan 9th 2012
But keep in mind this is a Japanese-culture ridden game. The Japanese military would likely be more strict then American. Not saying better mind you, just stricter.
MrDeath
07:50:31 AM Jan 9th 2012
What, exactly, are you basing that assessment on?
Zaptech
10:06:56 AM Jan 9th 2012
edited by Zaptech
But keep in mind this is a Japanese-culture ridden game. The Japanese military would likely be more strict then American. Not saying better mind you, just stricter.

Factually unsound (no evidence given that the JSDF is any "stricter" than other militaries) and irrelevant to my point. Whether or not the Japanese military is strict or not doesn't matter; you said that Selphie's attitude wouldn't "gel" with "any" kind of military. I pointed out how Selphie is mild compared to effective real-life military units.
AxelxGabriel
11:22:59 AM Jan 9th 2012
Even so, that still doesn't negate my point that military upbringing is under-played in this game.
Tylerox9
topic
03:02:04 PM Dec 26th 2011
edited by loracarol
We need to discuss this Five Man Band topic. Logically it should be; The Hero- Squall (obvious)

The Lancer: Zell; because he always had Squalls back, and was willing to takke action in his absence if needed.

Big Guy- Irvine; because literally the reason he was joined into the team was to be an added force to fight the Edea.

The Smart One- Quistis; because she is the ex-teacher, strategy thinking, logical thinking one who has intellectual connections to other people.places and knows more from experience.

The Chick- Selphie with her cheeriness and willingness to try anything and suggest whatever is on her mind, bringing spirits up.

The Sixth ranger- Rinoa; she isnt a SeeD nor an Orphan and is away from the cast, due to being kdnapped for a chunk of the game. making her close enough to be part of the band, but distant enough to be not directly in the 5 man band.

This makes logical sense, and there isnt more than one character taking up a single spot.
JoieDeCombat
03:58:53 PM Dec 26th 2011
edited by JoieDeCombat
My reason for removing the trope from the page is that the roles keep getting changed around as everyone has their own ideas for how they should be assigned. As per the main trope page:

"These are examples of teams that fit at least four of the character tropes. Remember that they form a team dynamic; it's always tempting to match two of the characters in a show, then try to convince yourself and others that the other characters can be squeezed/wedged/stuffed into the description of the other character types, but that's not the point of the Five-Man Band trope. The individual character types exist outside of the band. The Five-Man Band only occurs when the team as a whole fits, not just a few characters."

The only roles I have seen that are not constantly subject to dispute are Squall as The Hero and Quistis as The Smart Guy.

For The Lancer, I've seen just about everyone suggested, including Zell, Selphie, and Rinoa. The Lancer's article defines the role as being a Foil to The Hero - in FFVIII, Squall's primary foil is Rinoa, not Zell. You can make a case for it in that Zell's personality contrasts Squall's, but that's the case for most of the party; although he wants to be trusted with leadership whenever the subject comes up, he only really gets the chance to step up once.

The Big Guy: Irvine fits only in the sense that he's the tallest member of the team, which isn't really relevant to the trope. He was brought in for a specific skill that was required by the strategy the assassination was built on, not because he's a "powerhouse" as described by the trope; Zell, as a Boisterous Bruiser who explicitly relies on brawn foremost and is frequently seen punching things even outside of combat, fits the trope best, although Selphie also works as a magical Cute Bruiser whose ideas for problem-solving usually involve blowing things up.

The Smart Guy: Quistis doesn't even fit the role all that well, and she's one of the ones that isn't generally disputed. Although she's reputed to be very intelligent, we don't actually see her acting as the brains of the team in any situation. Her intelligence is mostly an Informed Ability rather than an asset to the team; Zell, who is presented as Dumb Muscle, does a better job of it than Quistis does by virtue of at least being surprisingly well-informed.

The Chick: The article defines The Chick as being the character who keeps the team pulled together emotionally, encouraging them to work together and inspiring them. Selphie does not do this. She's cheerful, yes, but there aren't really many instances of her being the one to step up and actually lift people's spirits, except at Trabia Garden where she exerts herself to cheer up people outside the team; we see Irvine doing this sort of thing within the team much more often (asking Squall to cheer Selphie up, and then organizing the Garden Festival, and again at the basketball court in disc 2). Selphie more commonly pipes up after someone else has already said something encouraging. I have also seen Rinoa suggested for this role as well, but she doesn't really do this sort of thing for the team as a whole, only for Squall.

I personally am comfortable with the way the roles were laid out before your edits, but since there's been this kind of debate before and it's almost guaranteed to come up again the next time someone else comes along and feels they have a better idea, that says to me that the trope as a whole simply doesn't apply and shouldn't be on the page to invite more edit wars.
Tylerox9
05:55:36 PM Dec 26th 2011
edited by Tylerox9
Lancer: If the Hero is unsocial, the Lancer may be the more social person. Zell just loves trying to get people to accept him, and talk, even if he doesnt prevail.

Big Guy: True Zell can fit this as well, but Irvine can't really fit anywhere else, except mabe the Chick since he had his memories of childhood with the gang. The Trope isnt about size, its about action. And the whole reason Irvine was put on the team was to kill a sorceress. He was there to fight someone from the get-go.

Smart Guy: Quistis is indeed smart. Is she leadership smart giving the orders? No, cause she isnt that kind of smart. But she is easily depicted as having the most booksmarts in the team.

The Chick: Selphie can be argued to be support to the team in this way. Such as when she gets the Ship flying, and everyone's psyched to attack the enemy base. Or the Galbaldia Missle Base mission where she inspires the mission, and even tells the characters that Squall cares about them because he trusted them on the mission. Just ebcause she needs support herself at times doesn't mean she isnt a support giver.

And Rinoa is just too distant from the gang to be in the Main 5 positions. Just because she is like the co-star doesnt make her the Lancer. Besides being Squalls employer for a while, she didnt have nearly as much association with things til the end. thats what makes her a good 6th ranger. Your entire point of taking the trope off is the fact it can be debated, which means there are even more possibilities and reason the trope should be on.

It was bad before because 2 people were listed under the Big Guy role. Thats sloppy, especially when a more simple and just as reasonable solutions lies. There doesnt need to be 6 people in a 5 Man band without a ^th Ranger.
JoieDeCombat
06:13:10 PM Dec 26th 2011
Yes, Zell is more social than Squall. So is everyone else. As I said, that alone isn't enough of a basis to qualify anyone as The Lancer. The team doesn't have a clear second-in-command - Quistis, Selphie, and Zell each take a turn at leading when the party has to split up. The only character who routinely acts on their own initiative is Rinoa, who is the character whose personality is also most regularly contrasted against Squall's.

Irvine simply doesn't fit The Big Guy. All of the SeeDs are combatants, but Irvine isn't defined by his combat strength. He is originally brought in not as firepower but because he has a skill the others don't, a point which is relevant only for the duration of the assassination mission anyhow; after that, his role in the team has nothing to do with strength and everything to do with emotional connections.

Quistis is smart - or so we're told. Name the smart things that she does to help the party, or the information or intelligence that she brings to the table that helps the team. Again, the Five-Man Band is about the party dynamic; it doesn't matter how smart a character is supposed to be if their supposed intelligence isn't benefiting the team in any way.

As for Selphie, I can't think of any instances in which she successfully inspires or psychs up the team herself. More often she's upbeat at inappropriate moments and is ignored ("Love and peace!"), or speaks up to second someone else's encouragement ("Yeah, happy is good."). Again, compare Irvine, whose actions repeatedly have a much clearer effect on the other team members and who seems much more invested in keeping them together and centered as a team.

If a clear consensus as to who fits what role can't be reached - if it's subject to constant debate and there are multiple possibilities and arguments for who fits what role - then the team doesn't fit the trope as it's described on the trope page, and the trope doesn't belong in the game's article. This is not a trope in which differing possibilities make it more applicable instead of less; there should be a reasonably clear delineation of which roles most of the team members play for it to qualify.
Tylerox9
10:09:39 PM Dec 26th 2011
edited by Tylerox9
But Zell really tries to be social, unlike others who are just being themselves. He is a Lancer in the way of contradicting Squall in many ways, without mirroring him as Seifer does. Rinoa is as much a Lancer to Squall as Aerith is to Cloud, Garnet to Zidane, or even Princess Leia to Luke. She isnt around enough, led alone with Squall himself.

The Big Guy doesnt have to be the strongest in the group. Its representatation, the Big Guy is rarely actually the strongest on the team. What more than a gun with a quick trigger to blast everyone away to be the big guy. It's generaly the same as Barret really. Just because Irvine isnt a bulging crazy guy though, you seem to think he can't qualify. And his role actually becomes more of he WANTS to fight for the team, considering his job after disc one was to take back Rinoa from jail, but he instead goes back, and saves them by holding down Galbaldia with his support fire. Having emotional connections isn't really a role.

Quistis smarts: 1) Taught Squall, Seifer and Zell to become Seeds, two in which succeeded. 2) Teaches about GF's and and effects and origins. 3) Teaches about junctioning and magics. 4) teaches status elements and strategies. 5) Teaches Combat abilities and Limit Breaks...

Selphies encouragements: 1) Lets jump off a cliff to get to our mission. 2) Encouraging the Team when they think Squall forskaed them, telling them that he only trusted them. 3) Everyone is down and depresed after Missle Strike on Balamb. Lets throw a concert to replace the festival. 4) Squall is a downer and just became leader, lets makes the Concert in his honor. 5) Hey I just got the ship working, lets go kick their ass.

if you really disagree with this, than lets atleast try and come up with a compromise to put down, that is logical and agreeable. There is no need to just take off a trope because their are imposing ideas of how it should go. Thats just lazy.
JoieDeCombat
05:22:03 AM Dec 27th 2011
edited by JoieDeCombat
"Rinoa is as much a Lancer to Squall as Aerith is to Cloud, Garnet to Zidane, or even Princess Leia to Luke. She isnt around enough, led alone with Squall himself."

Incorrect. Aerith, Garnet, and Leia don't contrast Cloud, Zidane, and Luke the way Rinoa does Squall. She is an optimist where he is a cynic. She lives in the moment where he obsesses over the past and worries about the future. She's an idealist where he is a mercenary. She repeatedly tries to take action on her own - another hallmark of The Lancer, and one of the reasons that your argument that "she's not around enough" doesn't convince me, since that's one of the things The Lancer does.

I'm also not sure how you figure Zell "tries" to be social any more than any other character; he is also "just being himself," the same as, for example, Selphie.

"Having emotional connections isn't really a role." Yes, it is. That's what The Chick is all about. In any case, Irvine's role on the team is never defined as "firepower," it's defined first as "specialist" at the beginning when he's not properly integrated into the team, and later, when he is really a member of the team in fact, it's as the guy who goes out of his way to pull the others together and cheer them up (the concert at FH) or give them focus (the basketball court at Trabia).

I must point out that everything you've brought up as Quistis using her intelligence to benefit the team are tutorials which are completed before there is a team at all; not even Zell has joined at that point (and there's no indication that he was ever in Quistis' class). Once there's actually a team form and Quistis has joined it, I can only think of one instance where it could even be argued that Quistis' intelligence served the team, and that was finding the secret passage out of Caraway's house, correcting an error in judgment that she made in the first place.

Your arguments for Selphie don't hold up either. Jumping off a cliff doesn't encourage or inspire anything; Zell thinks she's nuts for doing it. There's no response to her attempt to reassure the rest of the missile base team that Squall trusts them. Irvine, not Selphie, is the one who decides to throw a concert at FH and cheer everyone up, and who goes to the effort to make it happen and to put Rinoa in charge of making sure Squall has a good time. And getting the Ragnarok working only happens after Quistis has read Squall the riot act and inspired him to decide to go back to the Sorceress Memorial.

The reason I deleted the trope is not just because I disagree with you. It's because I've seen the roles argued over before, and I have no doubt that whatever decision we could possibly reach would be argued over again later the next time someone else came along and saw it differently. If you can ask ten tropers how the roles sort out and get five different arrangements, that's a sign that the trope doesn't apply and shouldn't be shoehorned on.

At the very least, I'd like to hear input from other tropers on whether they think the trope actually fits without being forced, and if so, how they see the roles sorting out.
Tylerox9
11:54:08 AM Dec 27th 2011
To say Zell doesn't apply to the Lancer position to Squall is like saying Duo Maxwell isnt a Lancer Heero Yuy in Gundam Wing, and TV Tropes has very much declared that to be the case. Because the relations between the characters in both cases are very identical.
CNGSanetaRose
12:10:38 PM Dec 27th 2011
I agree with Tylerox9 you guys need to look at the main ideas in order to get a biger and greater picture of things while keeping the main chreaters into play with this and then adding more into it. He has a good point and states it very well in his descriptions.
Humira
01:55:06 PM Dec 27th 2011
edited by loracarol
I agree with Tylerox9 as well. His argument is backed up with far more details than JoieDeCombat. He got his point across and supported it with evidence, rather than what "he feels." It makes more sense to people who don't agree with either, because it has factual evidence. JoieDeCombat's argument is more opinionated. Thank you. :)
JoieDeCombat
03:05:14 PM Dec 27th 2011
Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with Gundam Wing, so I'm not able to make a comparison between Heero and Duo's dynamic versus Squall and Zell's and their example does not help me understand your argument.

I'm a bit at a loss for how my citing of specific events in the game does not count as supporting my arguments with evidence. Reviewing my posts, I don't see where I've argued anything based purely or even mostly on what I feel, except for my argument to remove the trope, which is still supported by the fact that the roles have been argued repeatedly and are now being debated again, which indicates that they are not clearly delineated and how much "logical sense" any given arrangement of them makes is clearly subject to debate.
Tylerox9
04:47:43 PM Dec 27th 2011
edited by loracarol
Aw, I'm sure they didn't mean it exactly like that. Yes, you have listed examples, and have some validness. But what they probably see is that you list a weaker example thats more insignifigant in the game, while I state things throughout the game and capture the characters true esscence. Hence GNGSanetaRose saying the 'Bigger and greater picture.' My way is just more qualifying with details that would, and have, qualify in any othershow/game/movie.

JoieDeCombat
08:48:39 AM Dec 28th 2011
I disagree and see no particular difference in scope or significance in the examples I've provided versus yours. In particular, the concert and basketball court scenes I've cited in my arguments regarding Irvine are major, character-defining scenes in the game.

But there's no sense in getting hung up on debating this point instead of the original topic of discussion, since this boils down to both of us saying "my arguments are better than/just as good as yours," and that's guaranteed to go nowhere productive.

I'd still like to hear opinions from some of the tropers who've worked on the article up until now. No offense to CNGSanetaRose and Humira, but neither of you have any previous edit or discussion history that I can see, and I don't think we'll be able to resolve this disagreement without input from other tropers who've put work into the article (and therefore presumably have some interest in how it's edited).
Tylerox9
11:09:58 AM Dec 28th 2011
I think you may be taking things a little personal now. You ask for others opinions, and look for a way to discredit them when they don't agree with you. You're a real piece of work. It isnt about who says the opinions, it about the opinion itself, and everyones word is equal. Ofcourse you disagree with what they think of your opinions, because they are going against what you think, but their opinions still stand. Anyone who voices their opinion has intrest in this obviously, even if they have never bothered to go to edit page and change stuff. And what its boiling down to now is that people are agreeing to one point. And if you are going to be so bitter towards people as to say their opinion are worth less than yours and a certain others, then it is you who should stop editting pages and just stop troping together.
JoieDeCombat
11:24:04 AM Dec 28th 2011
I am not taking this personally, or making personal attacks. I do think that both of the other commenters should be able to explain and defend their own opinions themselves rather than needing you to do it for them, however.
MrDeath
12:03:45 PM Dec 28th 2011
edited by loracarol
Forgive this intrusion, but I don't see JoieDeCombat doing any of the things you're accusing him of, Tyler, and it is very suspicious when unknown tropers with no edits to their name suddenly show up out of the blue to say nothing more than "I agree with so and so" and make baseless accusations.
Tylerox9
09:38:00 PM Dec 28th 2011
edited by Tylerox9
I'm not really trying to accuse anyone of anything, in fact, I even tried defending him by admitting some validness in his points. Only thing I accused him of was being unfair to other tropers. Remember, everyone has a beginning, and we dont know just how long some people have been tropers. Heck, I had been troping for half a year before I ever made an account and posted stuff. If we only let the words of certain people be heard, than we might as well just let only them edit and discuss.

Now, since the others have voiced opinions, this is getting off topic and out of hand, so lets focus on the main point here, and that is what people think. We cant lay claim that peoples opinions aren't worthy or call them baseless accusitions on the grounds that you dont know them, you never heard of them or just because they disagree. Whats happening is that people have read our points and are casting their thoughts. And some people take points in different ways. CNG thinks my theory catches the bigger picture of the tropes and characters. thats the base of his/her opinions. Humira thinks your theory feels more opinionated rather strong/concreted. That just means he/she doesn't agree with your points. Nobodies opinions here are being baseless or cruel.

And quite frankly, if this is really how TV Tropes is going to handles these things, just swatting off people that dont meet certain anothers requirements, especially after he asked for them and they disagreed with them, then I'd rather just cut off ties all together, because it needs a rule/lesson taught of equality. Because i remember my lessons from school, and they taught me about people like you
MrDeath
06:22:16 AM Dec 29th 2011
edited by MrDeath
You accused him of "look for a way to discredit [other opinions] when they don't agree with you," and being "bitter" toward the opposition, and saying their opinion is worth less. Those are pretty blatant and, again, baseless accusations.

Yes, I'm going to dispute the validity of the unknown tropers because, again, they show up entirely out of the blue—without any other edits or discussions to their name—just to say they agree with you, and apparently to gang up on Joie De Combat. Their grammar and sentence structure is also suspiciously similar to yours, so this all looks a lot like sock puppetry or like you grabbed a couple friends just to back you up.

Their "opinions" amount to "Tyler's right," and "Joie De Combat's just going by his 'feelings'" which is patently not the case. So yes, if the their opinion is based entirely on falsehood like that, I'd say they're not going to carry the same weight as someone who I know for a fact has been editing this page for a long time, and therefore is well-versed in the game.
Tylerox9
06:04:32 PM Dec 29th 2011
edited by Tylerox9
the only ganging I see is you guys messing with people because you dont know them, and think they are pointless because of that. Only ganging I see is you guys calling other peoples opinions, things that cant be proven right or wrong in this case, weightless when you have no proof to back up any accusition of suspicion you wish to throw at them. And with that, I say you are the pathetic ones trying to drive off new tropers from fixing your precious tropes or even giving their word on the matter. With that said, I no longer have any wish to continue this. All this stupid corruption, no one should ever bother questioning, because their is only one type of opinion that matters on this website. It's really no different from anyplace else on the internet, despite claiming it is.

So I concede to my arguement. the Trope may be returned to it's original form. But let it be known, it is not because the people agreed to your ways, that your opinions outweighed mine. but because of the desperate acts and accusitions my opposite had to fling out to get his way, and the general corruption this website within it's members and rules, has that just the mere accusition of suspicion or cheating, without any proof, in a discussion is enough to discredit an opinion. this must be more important to you than me, maybe this will be the greatest mark you leave on the world. so i will let you have it your way.
MrDeath
06:58:27 PM Dec 29th 2011
Cut the self-righteous posturing, please. Joie De Combat made his argument, and all he asked for was for the other two to back up their opinions and claims, and they did not—instead, you accused him of being "bitter" and dismissive, when he was clearly none of those things. Nevermind that their opinions amount to "Tyler's right, you guys, he sees the big picture" and "Well, that's just Joie's opinion and his feelings"—the first is just Me Too, and the latter is patently, demonstrably false.

All he asked was that they back up the opinions that seem to be based on nothing that he actually said—if they posted once, they can certainly post again to clear things up, and nobody's stopping them.

Not all opinions are equally valid. If it's based on something that's clearly wrong (Joie's posts are clearly based on evidence from the game—which he cites in detail—and not just his "feelings"), then yes, it can be dismissed.

You're not being persecuted, the Wounded Gazelle Gambit isn't going to work when both sides are clearly on this site for everyone to see. Stop trying to paint Joie De Combat as the bad guy when he's done none of what you're accusing him.

For now I'm going to assume that you editing my post was an accident, but I would advise it not happen again, since it's a big no-no around here.
JoieDeCombat
11:22:13 AM Dec 31st 2011
I'm sorry the discussion has turned out like this. It's a fact of the internet that an account created the same day and with no other activity on the site is not going to have the same credibility as an account that's been established and involved around the site for a while. I don't think that's out of line, certainly not so far out of line as to justify invoking Godwin's Law.

I'd also like to note again that my argument was never for reverting Tyler's edits. My argument from the beginning was that since our interpretations of the characters' roles in the team are so different, and since other tropers have had other interpretations in the past as well, it's a case of Square Peg Round Trope and doesn't need to be included in the game's article. As stated on the Five-Man Band page, not every team of five or more fits the trope, even when some members of the team may fit the trope descriptions for the individual roles. The page calls for at least four of the roles to be clearly delineated; we can barely agree on two.
MrDeath
07:15:14 AM Jan 1st 2012
Wow, I didn't even catch that pothole the first time. Really, Tyler? Someone disagrees with you about a 13-year-old video game, and they're a Nazi? Really?
jiglitilittllitllopin
topic
07:44:01 PM Dec 19th 2011
In regards to the badass biker entry, I think it should be expanded. For you see, its not just that they were badass. They were the best soldiers in the history of ever. During the garden wars, those motorcycle riding soldiers were launched by rockets on their bikes, through the sky, landing on one tiny safe area, as both gardens rotated.

They could not have trained for this, as very few people knew the garden was mobile. They already had flying suits that were far more reliable. But no. Despite these things, they still did it.

How can you beat that? Really balamb shouldve just surrendered right then and there. You just cant defeat a military force that can pull off that. Also, crowning moment of awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kEi3v3D_MM <— this ENTIRE scene could be considerd a crowning moment of awesome. And thats without the clothslined soldier.
KingZeal
topic
05:27:38 AM Dec 1st 2011
edited by KingZeal
Regarding Last Minute Hookup:

I would like to point out that romantic overtones, subtext, or even gestures may not count as a "hookup". A hookup, as I understand it in this context, is when a couple has become "official", as in they are considered to be boyfriend and girlfriend/betrothed/consummate lovers. While I agree that the reciprocated love between Rinoa and Squall starts to appear around she gets sick, that doesn't particularly count as a "hookup"—because that doesn't mean they've taken that step.

If subtext, overtones and gestures were enough, you wouldn't have tropes like Everyone Can See It, Aw They Really Do Love Each Other and, most importantly, Twice Shy. For example, we have characters like Ippo and Kumi, Inu Yasha and Kagome and Kilik and Xianghua. The first couple are deeply in love with each other but Cannot Spit It Out, the second couple was in love but were constantly in danger of being broken up until the very end, and the third couple were in love but never able to get together at all.

The problem seems to be in the language of the entry. The entry spins Last Minute Hookup in a negative way by saying that though the game is "billed as a romance", the two don't officially become a couple until the end with their first kiss. This makes it sound as though the game should not be counted as a romance and/or that all "true" romance stories involve an official couple, which is not true. That wording also ignores that this sort of slow build-up is common in Japanese courtship (Or So I Heard).
JoieDeCombat
10:57:08 AM Dec 1st 2011
I agree that the entry as written was not worded correctly. Even given the somewhat subjective nature of the trope, though, there are at least three distinct points in disc 3 where Squall and Rinoa could be considered to become "official" - the scene on the Ragnarok, the Sorceress Memorial rescue, and the promise at the flower field. By the last of these Squall seems to be acting as though they're in a confirmed relationship, and he's almost certainly the last to know; the rest of the cast treats them as a couple starting much earlier in disc 3.

While I can kind of understand not agreeing that any of these moments constitutes an official hookup, I think the subject may be subject to too much disagreement for the trope to be listed on the page. If it were a YMMV trope that could go on that page, it'd be a different matter - disagreement related to those is only to be expected - but it's not.
Rebochan
11:28:49 PM Dec 1st 2011
Actually, the Last Minute Hookup trope is really vague. If you read the article, there have been several recent edits to try and make it a YMMV trope without actually doing so, suggesting that because SOME people MAY need deeper confirmation of a relationship, a relationship can count if it doesn't meet their requirements. The trope itself has a few issues that are making it hard to use, period. But that's a discussion for that page.

I thought the Ragnarok moment where the two of them are actually getting physically intimate makes the relationship quite clear, as does the Sorceress Memorial scene that comes directly after it where Squall explicitly breaks Rinoa out of confinement entirely because he loves her. This isn't even just trying to put it through a Japanese lens (though yea, being physically intimate in a culture that considers even hand holding to be intense is a big deal). The Ragnarok scene is even where they played the game's love song. It's pretty clear that even if some people set standards significantly higher, the game's writers certainly considered it a done deal well before the kiss at the credits.
JoieDeCombat
02:45:04 PM Dec 5th 2011
I'd also like to put forward that there's a fairly simple litmus test that can be applied here: by the scene at the Sorceress Memorial, there is no Will They or Won't They? ambiguity remaining in Squall and Rinoa's relationship, in or out of universe. By that point there is no doubt that they're a couple - the only question remaining is how the situation with Ultimecia is going to be resolved.
Zaptech
01:01:23 AM Dec 6th 2011
Pretty much agreeing to all the above. Yes, they kiss at the very end, but the characters being an actual couple occurs in the third disc, either at the Sorceress Memorial or earlier on the Ragnarok, pick whichever one is more thematically appropriate for you.
jackrabbit7617
03:28:32 PM Dec 7th 2011
You'll have to forgive my wording. I wasn't trying to imply anything negative when I edited the description to say "Despite the game being billed as a romance". I just added that because I felt it placed greater emphasis on Squall and Rinoa not getting together until the end (or near the end).

The reason I edited the Last Minute Hookup description to say what it now does is because if you look at some of the examples on the page, you'll notice that what I described regarding YMMV definitely happens with some of them. For example in Zoey 101, Zoey and Chase flat out tell each other "I love you" in the first episode of the last season, but Chase is gone and doesn't come back until the last episode, which is when they have their first kiss and Zoey refers to Chase as her boyfriend. Which one counts as them being together?

Or with Avatar: The Last Airbender , Aang and Katara had their first kiss partway through the third season, but their kiss in final scene of the finale receives much greater emphasis. Again, which one counts? Plus, they never actually say "I love you" to each other at all or anything along those lines like referring to each other as boyfriend and girlfriend, so can they even be considered to have hooked up?

Plus, the examples for Friends and Gilmore Girls also present another problem. The couples did hook up before, but break up and don't get back together until the very end. Does that still count?

In regards to Squall and Rinoa, I don't consider them together until the ending scene because my opinion of They Do happening with a Will They or Won't They? couple consists of a few factors which Squall and Rinoa don't meet prior to right before the credits (though I admit that even these criteria can be open to interpretation). 1.) Both halves of the couple admit they love each other. Even if one admits it, it doesn't count until the other does as well, and the former still has the same feelings at that time. (For example, in Gone with the Wind Rhett openly admits his love to Scarlett throughout the film, but Scarlett doesn't admit her love for Rhett until the end at which point Rhett no longer feels the same way.)

2.) Both admit their love to each other. Not to their friends or family or to themselves, but they have to openly admit it to the other one's face. A lot of the lines Squall uses such as "I've fallen for you" or "I'll be your knight", he never says out loud.

3.) They both tell each other they LOVE each other (though they don't have to use the word love). They don't say they like each other, or admit a long standing crush, or say that they would be together if weren't for some major problem preventing it, or even decide to "just give it a try" to see if it works out. No, they full on admit that they have romantic feelings for each other.

4.) They are in an official relationship. By "official relationship" I mean that both people consider themselves to be a couple and admit it in some way. Squall and Rinoa never use key words like "love" (not counting the Garden Festival scene when she doesn't mean romantic love nor just Squall), "relationship", "dating" or "boyfriend" or "girlfriend".

5.) The couple has The Big Damn Kiss, (which is another trope that's not YMMV but can still get subjective) either before or after the other factors. This one is extremely important because it can actually serve as a substitute for some of the other factors if strong enough. While I think kissing does tend to be over-romanticized, I still feel it's very important in story telling. If Squall and Rinoa had had their Big Damn Kiss on the Ragnarok or in the slow motion FMV at the Sorceress Memorial or in the flower field, I definitely would have considered them to be a couple and not fall into this trope.

That's just my two cents.

Zaptech
01:10:24 PM Dec 17th 2011
I disagree with the assertion that they have to declare that they love each other for this to "count". One doesn't need to say they "love" someone, especially when actions count far more than words - and in terms of actions, Squall and Rinoa are unquestionably a couple by the time the Sorceress Memorial turns around.
JoieDeCombat
01:16:52 PM Dec 17th 2011
And if not by then, then the conversation shortly following it at the flower field. Although the word "love" isn't used, Rinoa tells Squall that it's okay if he has to kill her as long as he's the one to do it, and Squall replies by refusing to even consider the possibility no matter what the consequences for the rest of the world. In context, that's pretty definitive.
Rebochan
01:35:23 PM Dec 17th 2011
edited by Rebochan
Seriously, do they need a signed contract declaring their eternal everlasting love before you'll accept it? The trope you are trying to link is NOT a YMMV trope, and I can't help but notice that jackrabbit is the one who added a lot to that trope's introduction to make it sound more vague than it really is.
srj34
topic
07:01:46 PM Nov 5th 2011
From the main page:

"The fandom either loved it or hated it. The hyper-success of Final Fantasy VII meant that Final Fantasy VIII had incredible expectations to live up to. Exacerbating the matter was the fact that FFVIII's storytelling opted for subtlety and nuance, leaving the player to interpret the meaning behind the story's events themselves."

This needs to be changed or excised. The implication here is that people who hated the game were too stupid to get how brilliant it was.
Rebochan
08:10:00 PM Nov 6th 2011
Or it could be implying that said subtlety and nuance failed to engage the players.
KingZeal
08:21:22 PM Nov 6th 2011
Same difference. What counts as "subtlety and nuance", compared to other games, anyway? If you wanted to, you could say that Mario is a commentary on the war on drugs.
Rebochan
12:25:25 AM Nov 7th 2011
As much as I'd love to see another endless discussion with King Zeal on FFVIII, I think I'll just rewrite the sentence.

Topic creator? You're more than welcome to do that in the future as well.
srj34
05:34:11 PM Nov 8th 2011
I would have, but my edits get edited. So I'd rather open discussions up before doing it going forward.
Rebochan
11:59:42 PM Nov 8th 2011
Fair enough. It had been there for awhile.
back to Videogame/FinalFantasyVIII

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