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Shoehorning in the ensembles:
is probably the worst offender but the other Ensembles
are highly prone to forcing an example that doesn't fit, particularly ones that rely on having a certain number of members in the group like a Power Trio
. To fix these we need to remove the Zero Context Examples
and the ones where the context doesn't fit with the page description. Also we need to stop the edit warring where people repeatedly want to add examples that don't fit.
My concern right now is The Three Faces of Eve
. It clearly consists of the innocent child (who does not have to be a child literally), wise wife (not mother as people like to call it), and sexual seductress but people like to make it them any rough, intelligent and innocent trio or aggressive, strong/compassionate, and young trio.
Five Man Band's policy is a good place to start: remove the obviously bad ones (the mother instead of wise wife as you put it), place a large note at the top warning about zero context examples, and only add more after discussion.
Been working on Three Faces of Eve
. I expanded on some I knew fit and cut some I did not think were correct. There ae a lot of ZCE I am unfamiler with, as well as some stuff I think may be shoehorning but I am unsure.
My question is, when there are subversions and "variations" and "alternately you may see them as this" I am inclined to cut because that just perpetuates the shoehorning, but I am unsure if that is cool. For example his Drawn Together
Drawn Together has an interesting variation on the trope. Clara is pretty consistently the child, but Foxxy is both the mother and the seductress. Toot is the right age for the mother but tries to be the seductress, and the men just won't go for it.
Or this one for Josie and the Pussycats
Josie and the Pussycats has Josie (the child), Valerie (the wife), and Melody (the seductress).
- Alternatively, Melody can be seen as the child (ditzy, naive, cheerful) and Josie as the seductress (lead singer and the heroine of the series). Valerie (booksmart, down to Earth) remains as the wife.
I want to cut them both, what do you guys think?
Another I am borderline about is this Megatokyo example:
Yuki (the child), Kimiko (the wife) and Miho (The seductress) from Megatokyo.
- Largo's English Awesomeness class also has one of these: naive Robot Girl Ping, sarcastic Class Representative Junko, and the aforementioned Miho.
The first three are not a trio, and the second three only barely if you squint fit the archetypes, IMO. Any thoughts?
And on the Greek Myth one I am not sure Athena counts as the maiden. I mean, she is literally a virgin, but she does not fit the archetype. She is supposed to be wise, yeah? Could someone help me out on that?
I also think the ZCE for Sky Dancers
is shoehorning as well, but I only watched about 3 episodes of that show so I am unsure. I am thinking cut with an edit note saying if anyone dissagrees they need to re-add with context. Thoughts?
A Wizard boy
She is supposed to be wise, Athena.
^ So she does not really fit with the ditzy, child-like, naive child role, correct? Should I go a head and cut?
A Wizard boy
No myth I know shows her as this.
I cut it.
I have a few I want to cut for not being trios, but I want some feedback first:
Coraline is the child, the Other Mother is the mother, and the young Other Spink and Forcible are seductresses.
The three female leads in the Indiana Jones films: Marion Ravenwood from Raiders of the Lost Ark and Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is the Mother (literally, in the latter film); Willie Scott from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom is the Child; And Dr. Elsa Schneider from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade is the Seductress.
Repo! The Genetic Opera has Shilo (the child), Amber Sweet (the seductress), and Blind Mag (the mother).
In Earth-3, the Evil Counterpart Universe to the regular DC Verse, contains the character Evelyn Dent, Three-Face.
In Super Sentai the child and the wife's role will be filled by the female ranger while the seductress's role will be filled by the villainess.
- Denji Sentai Megaranger has Miku:child, Chisato:wife and Shibolena:seductress.
- Ninpuu Sentai Hurricanger has Nanami:mother, Furabijo:child and Wendinu:seductress.
- Engine Sentai Go-onger has Saki:child, Miu:mother and Kegalesia:seductress.
- Samurai Sentai Shinkenger has Kotoha:child, Mako:mother(that can't cook) and Dayu(her name litterally mean courtesan):seductress.
The first three I am reasonably sure are cuts, the fourth I would like to know more about, and the last..? Can it count as a trio is two of the girls are part of a 5 man band and the third is the villian?
Seconded. Athena was the goddess of wisdom.
More generally, any time where an example has 'alternatives' is incorrect. If, for instance, one character can fit the wise wife AND the innocent child than they do not fit either. Even if a character is 'innocently wise' or 'wisely innocent' they still do not fit the trope because in this trope the traits are separate. 'Variations' is similar. This trope is about archtypes so if the character does not fit the archtype than they do not fit the trope.
OK, I went ahead and cut all ZCE from Three Faces of Eve
(with a couple exceptions I am planning on expanding on in a bit. I posted them on disscussion, but since disscussion tends to be a bit of a wasteland I am also posting them here. If you know the context than please speak up!
- Fresh Pretty Cure!: before Setsuna joined the team, we had Love (child), Inori (wife), and Miki (seductress).
- Oniisama e... gives us two trios like this:
- The first years: Tomoko Arikura (Child), Nanako Misonou (Mother), Mariko Shinobu (Seductress). More in the anime, tho, due to Tomoko being an Ascended Extra.
- The three School idols: Rei Asaka (Child), Kaoru Orihara (Mother), Fukiko Ichinomiya (Seductress)
- In Mazinger Z, Sayaka (wife), Misato (seductress) and Erika (child).
- Cat's Eye: The three heroines.
- From Madlax: Margaret Burton is the mother, Madlax is the Seductress, Laetitia is The Child.
- From Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann we have Kittan's sisters: Kiyoh (Seductress), Kinon (Wife) and Kiyal (Child).
- In School Rumble, the women who are important to Harima are Tenma (child), Eri (seductress) and Yakumo (wife).
- Daimos has Nana (child), Princess Erika (wife) and Raiza (seductress).
From Rurouni Kenshin, we have Misao (Child), Kaoru (Wife) and Megumi (Seductress). probably not an example
- Mingchao (Child), Fino (Wife), and Benkate (Seductress) from Et Cetera.
Fruits Basket: Tohru the Child/Mother, Arisa the Seductress and Saki the Mother. probably not an example
- Vandread: Dita the Child, Meia the Mother, and Jura the Seductress.
- Umineko no Naku Koro ni: the three girls in 1986 Rokkenjima: Shannon (Mother), Maria (Child) and Jessica (Seductress). Shannon/Sayo/Yasu/KANON/etc. is more complex than she looks like, tho.
The three main teenage girls in Detective Conan: Kazuha Touyama (Child), Ran Mori (Mother), Sonoko Suzuki (Seductress). probably not an example
- Puella Magi Madoka Magica, due to... "cast changes", has many of these.
- In school: Madoka (Child), Hitomi (Mother with touches of Seductress), Sayaka (Seductress with touches of Mother)
- First PM trio of sorts: Madoka (Child), Sayaka (Seductress/Mother) and Mami (Mother) until Mami's death
- Second PM trio: Sayaka (Child), Homura (Mother), Kyouko (Seductress). Though Kyouko shows Mother traits... when she's about to die.
- Backstory's first and second timelines: Madoka (Mother), Mami (Seductress/Mother), Homura (Child)
- Digimon Adventure had this with its female leads: Sora as the Mother, Hikari as the Child, and Mimi as the Seductress.
- Mawaru-Penguindrum: Ringo Oginome (Child), Himari Takakura (Mother/Child), either Yuri Tokikago or Masako Natsume (Seductress).
- Sailor Moon: The Starlights (when not genderflipped): Seiya/Starfighter (Child), Taiki/Starmaker (Mother), Yaten/Starhealer (Seductress).
In Fate/Zero: Saber (Child), Irisviel (a literal Wife/Mother) and Maiya (Seductress). probably not an example
- In Hidan no Aria: Aria (Child), Shirayuki (Wife) and Riko (Seductress). an example, needs write up
Magic Knight Ray Earth: In the second season: Aska (Child), Tatra (Wife), Tarta (Seductress). probably not an example
- In Hekikai No Ai ON: Yuzuki (child), Seine (mother) and Shizuki (seductress).
- The three sisters in The Sapphires: Gail (the eldest) is the Wife, Cynthia (the middle child) is the Seductress, and Julie (the youngest) is the Child. Their cousin Kay also fits the Child role.
- The three leads in The First Wives Club. Brenda (Wife), Elise (seductress), Annie (child). - may be an example, needs write up
Repo! The Genetic Opera has Shilo (the child), Amber Sweet (the seductress), and Blind Mag (the mother). Yeah, no, this is not an example either
- The three sisters in Hannah And Her Sisters: Hannah (wife), Lee (seductress), and Holly (child).
- Black Swan: Nina (child), Lily (seductress), Nina's mom (mother; subverted in that she's single).
- The Vampire Diaries: In the novel series, Elena, Meredith and Bonnie with Elena as the "Seductress", Meredith as the "Wife" and Bonnie as the "Child".
- In The Princess Series Snow White is the innocent, Danielle is the wife, and Talia is the seductress.
- In Super Sentai the child and the wife's role will be filled by the female ranger while the seductress's role will be filled by the villainess.
- Liz (wife), Jenna (seductress) and Cerie (child) on 30 Rock.
Birds of Prey has Helena (aka Huntress) as the seductress, Barbara (aka Oracle) as the sensible one, and Dinah as the child. most likey not an example, but not entirely sure
- Angel has Cordelia (the wife), Lilah (the seductress), and Fred (the child)
- From the various: Star Trek series:
Star Trek: The Original Series: Lt. Uhura is the Seductress, Nurse Christine Chapel is the Mother, and Yeoman Janice Rand is the Child. not an example
Star Trek: The Next Generation: The first season had Counselor Troi as the Child, Dr. Crusher as the Mother (literally, of Wesley), and Tasha Yar as the Seductress. not an example
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine: Major (later Colonel) Kira Nerys is the Seductress, Jadzia Dax is the Mother, and Ezri Dax is the Child. not an example
Star Trek: Voyager: Captain Janeway is the Mother, Lt. Torres is the Seductress, and Kes was the Child, before Seven of Nine took her place. not an example
The three women of The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air: Aunt Vivian is the wife/mother, Hilary is the seductress and Ashley is the child. not really a trio, but I welcome 2nd opinions
- fire emblem
- The possible love interests for both male lords fit as well. In the case of Eliwood we have Lyn as the Seductress, Ninian as the Maiden and Fiora as the Mother; for Hector there's Farina as the Seductress, Lyn as the Mother, and Florina as the Maiden.
- And Erk's love interests too: Priscilla is the Mother, Nino is the Child, Serra is the Seductress.
- Kent's as well: Lyn (Child), Fiora (Mother), Farina (Seductress).
- In Sain's case: Fiora (Mother) and Farina (Seductress) stay, switching Lyn with Rebecca as the Child.
- Even more Peg Knights come from the Akaneia continent: Palla (Mother), Catria (Seductress, though mostly by default), and Est (Child)
- Also, the three girls more important to Celice among the group: Lana (Mother), Yuria (Child) and Lakche (Seductress). If you don't get Lana and Lakche, they're replaced by their expies Manna and Radney, and they fit just as well.
- Sonic the Hedgehog features Amy (mother), Rouge (seductress), and Cream (child). Then again, there's also Blaze (Action Girl).
- Tales of Phantasia: Mint, Arche, Suzu (not perky, though)
- Tales of the Abyss: Tear, Natalia, Anise (although the personalities appear to be swapped for this one)
- Tales of Symphonia: Collette, Raine, and Sheena (Sorta. She's certainly the most voluptuous of the group.) Presea hardly counts into this equation since she has no real personality to speak of.
- Silent Hill 2 has Laura (child), Mary (wife), and Maria (seductress).
- The three main girls from the Sly Cooper series should count. Penelope seems like the daughter, Carmelita the mother, and Neyla the seductress.
- Tsukihime: Arcueid, Akiha (Child), Ciel, Hisui (Wife), Kohaku (Seductress)
- Yuki (the child), Kimiko (the wife) and Miho (The seductress) from Megatokyo.
edited 9th Jan '13 11:47:51 AM by willthiswork
Looks good. I want to point out that an example might have context, and maybe even be a good example, but the context might make it sound like it doesn't fit. In this case the wife should not be described as intelligent or maternal, though she can have those traits. She is steady, wise, calm, sensible, capable and I would add elegant and domestic.
True. Like some of the ones I left only give "context" like X is literally a mother, Y is literally her child etc etc, and those will need to be cut pending better context as well. I just thought I would do the most obvious ones first, since the list is quite long already.
I have not checked the works pages for better context yet either, so I am going to do that before getting even more cut-happy.
The Coraline example can go — those three (well, four) are not a group or unit by any means.
Merge those duplicates! Fix that factual error! Delete that shoehorned non-example! You have the power! —Meta Four
^ Thought so! Cutting now.
1. Magic Knight Ray Earth is incorrect. Aska is in a different faction from Tatra and Tarta so they don't contrast. Also, the last two don't fit because their personalities aren't opposites as the entry implies
2. Rurouni Kenshin is incorrect. Kaoru is too Tsundere and otherwise immature to be the Wife though an arguement could be made that she matures into such by the end but in that case it is irrelevant because it's the end. Likewise Megumi is not a seductress.
3. Fruits Basket is incorrect. Like I said in my last post, Child/Mother combinations do not count because they are contridictory. Arisa is a pipe wielding deliquent, not a seductress, and Saki is a Strange Girl
, not a wife. Tohru fits that better but Saki is no where neither innocent/immature/etc to be a child.
4. The three main teenage girls in Detective Conan is also incorrect. Sonoko Suzuki has a lot of one-shot boyfriends but she's not a secutress; too ditzy and more 'Ran's friend' than anything else. I haven't seen Kazuha myself but I've heard her personality is similar to Ran's like Kaito's is similar to Shinichi's.
^ Cool, cool. I have cut those now. Do we have consensis to cut all the "could also be seen like..." "so-and-so fit x AND y" stuff? Would like to get a couple more ayes before moving forward.
I would also like an opinion of this one:
- In Dragon Age: Origins, it appears that Leliana is the innocent, Morrigan the seductress, and Wynne is definitely the motherly (or grandmotherly) one. Though there is some subversion, since Morrigan is the most naive out of the three and doesn't understand concepts of love, friendship, or altruism, and Leliana's innocent nun act is a ruse to hide her past as a Mata Hari (though her newfound faith is genuine).
Another "well this person could be this or this" sort of example, which I think should be cut from the example list... buuuut I do see what they are getting at. I mean, Leliana is the upbeat, perky one, but she is niether stupid nor naive, and the other two may fit. Does anyone have an opinion on this?
From what I understand of the game the Dragon Age 2 example is a cleaner fit, but it need expansion and I have not played the game. Any help?
edited 8th Jan '13 8:47:41 AM by willthiswork
: Saber is a heroic Knight In Shining Armour
and a freaking King
. She has nothing to do with the child. Clear shoehorn.
Tales of the Abyss
: No seductress, and neither girl is particularly motherly. Only Anise is the child.
A Wizard boy
If it needs expansion, the discussion page is a good place.
^ I will give that a shot. I have been (slowly) visiting the works pages of the cut ZCE, checking if the entry is any better, and pulling to disscussion if it is not, and then dropping a link back here so anyone who cares can maybe talk about it. Is that OK, or am I going about it dumb?
Seeking for Light
Re: Dragon Age II
: While the three characters do have the wife/child/seductress dynamic, I'm not sure that they actually fit this trope because they aren't a group
; they're the three female companions of the player character and thus are only together if you happen to put all three of them into your active team lineup.
The Star Trek ones:
From the various: Star Trek series:
No. Uhura is not seductress. She's no more sexual than any of the other female characters, and she doesn't use her sexuality to accomplish her goals.
- Star Trek: The Next Generation: The first season had Counselor Troi as the Child, Dr. Crusher as the Mother (literally, of Wesley), and Tasha Yar as the Seductress.
No. Tasha is not the seductress. She's a tomboy, a warrior woman. She doesn't use sex to advance her goals.
- Star Trek: Deep Space Nine: Major (later Colonel) Kira Nerys is the Seductress, Jadzia Dax is the Mother, and Ezri Dax is the Child.
Don't know, never watched it. Probably not, though; I'd bet that Kira isn't a seductress.
- Star Trek: Voyager: Captain Janeway is the Mother, Lt. Torres is the Seductress, and Kes was the Child, before Seven of Nine took her place.
No. Torres is not a seductress. She, like Tasha, is a warrior woman; she doesn't use sex to advance her goals. Seven of Nine is also never the Child — she's naive, but not innocent; on the contrary, she's extremely cynical.
Also, the Indiana Jones
example is wrong; the three characters never interact with each other, they're in different movies. The archetype is not simply about the presence of three types, it's about the interaction dynamic of them. Hard to have an interaction dynamic when they're never all together in the same place at the same time.
Do we have consensis to cut all the "could also be seen like..." "so-and-so fit x AND y" stuff?
Go for it. The archetypes are clear-cut. That type of example is a strong indication that the roles are not clear-cut in the work.
edited 8th Jan '13 10:24:17 AM by Madrugada
'He strutted across the bedroom, his hard manhood pointing the way' sounds like he owns a badly named seeing-eye dog. 'Sit, Hard Manhood!
With Mod Hat On
, Thank you for taking this one on. It's greatly appreciated, even if the appreciation isn't often spoken.
'He strutted across the bedroom, his hard manhood pointing the way' sounds like he owns a badly named seeing-eye dog. 'Sit, Hard Manhood!
^^^ Right, I have been meaning to bring that up, actually. I have been cutting very obviouse non-trios, but I am unsure about "trios" that are not really trios, but are either the only three playable females or the three girls in a group of six (I am not sure if any of those types are left, I may have cut them all for other reasons, but there were some like like 6teen and stuff on there before).
It also sort of ties back to the Super Sentai example I posted here for discussion. The "trio" in question in those examples is only a trio in the sense that they are the only 3 ladies with any significant role. I am inclined to cut that, but I wanted to make sure I was completely clear on what is and what is not a trio before I do.
I am inclined to give a pass to three characters who are not a solid trio, but are the only playable females and are all playable at the same time, or when there is a larger group but only three of them are female, as long as they are part of a group that does not include any other ladies. That last part is super important though. My thinking on this is because an element of the trope is how when three female characters are required for something and they are given their defining personality traits it frequently comes down to "sweet one, smart one, ho, " so-to-speak.
Bleh, I am not sure if I am explaining myself clearly. I would really like some thoughts on the matter.
EDIT: Woop, ninjaed. Thank you very much, Madrugada, I do like the occasional pat on the head ^.^
edited 8th Jan '13 10:25:06 AM by willthiswork
I'd keep a trio even if they're loosely connected to each other as long as there's something they have in common that sets them apart from the other females.
I'd like to say thanks too, willthiswork. Cutting bad examples is good. Editing is good if they're good edits.
At the end of this project the word 'mother' shouldn't be mentioned once. An ideal mother has her first priority be her children. She is nurturing to them
, defending them
, and leading them
like the modern American Housewife
. A good wife has her first priority be her husband. She wisely, calmly, makes a smooth and elegant home for him as she is sensible and capable in running a household because she is the lady of the house like a Yamato Nadeshiko
World's Toughest Milkman
I'll confirm that the Deep Space Nine
example fails for the same reason as the other Trek examples—plus, all
of them fail to be a distinguishable team.
"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
OK, I crossed off confirmed non-examples from my list. I clean a few wicks and appealed to some disscussion pages of some works for context. Still got a lot more to go though. I could really use some people to expound on some of the ZCE, since when all the cuts are done we are going to have a pretty bare page. Also having a healthy example list of really well written examples is going to go a long way towards keeping the page from getting cluttered with garbage. So if you know anyone who knows the works on my list, please have them come by!
Also, could I get an opinion on this one:
- Animorphs: Idealistic empath Cassie is the child, fearless Blood Knight Rachel is the mother and Ax Crazy Taylor is the seductress.
I do not think being ax crazy makes you a seductress. I only read the first dozen or so Animorphs books, does anyone have an opinion on this?
Also: looking at the Freash Prince of Bel Air example, I can kind of see it working, but I do not think it counts as a trio. I already said I am willing to count "only three female main characters, " but those three have different roles and IIRC different amounts of screen time, which really makes them unrelated for the purpose of this trope (despite, maybe ironincally, being actually related in the work??). Anyone want to weigh in? If they were all sisters that would work, but a mom and her two daughters..?
ETA: Incidently, I was looking at some of the other ensemble tropes and stumbled on Town Girls
. That strikes me as being a very poor name, but it looks like some of the examples being shoehorned into Three Faces of Eve
may actually be that one instead. Bbasically people taking girly, normal, tomboy and cramming it into child, wife, seductress, with the seductress role being the most clearly wrong. The cut Powerpuff Girl example fits into that one very tidily. I think maybe making the difference clear in the trope discription could help. Any opinions on that?
edited 8th Jan '13 4:25:50 PM by willthiswork