Badass tropes - now on: Action Girl

"LGBT Fighter", perhaps, since it sounds a bit better as a trope name than some of these languorous attempts at clarity

edited 24th Jul '16 4:51:26 AM by lakingsif

The key thing is something like that a notable separate trope for a run of the mill fighter? I dont think it is a big enough of a distinction.

The trope needs more distinctions aside from 'gay' and 'fighter' and nothing else, those distinctions will provide more fuel for a title.

Focus on the maybe Camp Gay elements for a Not Manly Fighter? Straight Gay really has no distinction from straight characters at least for guys. for lesbians I would say it is far more stereotypical in works for them to be fighters and would be a separate trope more related to Tomboy Fighters and such as apposed to Girly Fighters.

edited 24th Jul '16 7:19:59 AM by Memers

Empowered By LGBT? This references their identity as one of the four and drawing strength from it.

Side note: I feel as if we're going to do a LOT of cutting once we decide on a new name...

edited 26th Jul '16 3:03:20 PM by erazor0707

Actually, that might be a better way to do it. Once we've decided what examples, exactly, should stay, we might be better fit to come up with a name.

Another side note: Should being 'badass' when not explicitly being a fighter of some sort count — e.g. normal person being tough and more of a fighter than the other normal people, they are LGBT, and in a situation where other non-straight characters would be expected to be (or typically are) even less tough than the straight characters.

But are we mostly agreed that a tentative definition is "being awesome equipped more than straight folk in spite of, and possibly aided by, ones LGBT identity". And that there is no need to be Straight Gay, so superheroes working on the power of gay and rainbows would be examples, too (but it's also not 'gayness is a superpower/advantage in general').

edited 31st Jul '16 6:38:43 AM by lakingsif

I dont know, the more i think about it, the more i feel Badass Gay should probably just be cut.

as far as identity politics go, trying to find a justification In-Universe is like if we had an equivalent Badass Black Guy or Badass Jew.

So you have other tropes about how say black people are depicted like Soul Brotha or Black and Nerdy or Magical Negro, but just Badass doens't actually make any sense.

Similarly with have things like Camp Gay, Straight Gay, Manly Gay, Agent Peacock, Butch Lesbian etc. These are all tropes about how a person with a certain identity acts. Trying to save 'Badass' doens't make much sense to me either. We'd probably be better off dewicking and redirecting to more appropriate specific tropes.

And then launching some type of general Stereotype Overcomer trope that can encompass every identity, and an Anything You Can Do, I Can Do Better when its specifically a competition to see if the minority member or the majority member comes out on top.

edited 31st Jul '16 9:04:13 AM by acrobox

Mission one would probably be to go through all wicks and see which could be swapped or expanded to other tropes. If I start up a mini-mine of that now to give ya'll an example?

I agree that maybe Badass Gay should be cut. I could see 'effeminate but badass' but a 'badass LGBT' doesn't make any sense to me. It's too broad.

So, and apologies if it's long, here's my mini-summary of a few randomly selected pages from the Badass Gay wicks (including some Badass Bisexual and Badass Lesbian ones). By random, I mean I hit scroll and it stopped at 'F'. I was going to do every other one, then saw GoT and thought maybe not, so there's clustered examples from F-G-H, then a few that seemed quick from the redirects.

• Friendship Is Doomsday – definitely one for Ambiguously Gay, and the page needs some nice Badass-related cleanup. About ten characters have a ZCE Badass entry, with one having a double-bullet reading "Badass Gay: Possibly."
• Glee – one example of a character who is slightly effeminate but otherwise emphatically tries to insist that being gay does not make his identity. When he doesn’t perform above-and-beyond, however, (this seems to be expectation he is held to in order to be accepted) some football players try to gay bash him. He sees them all to the hospital or out of school; notable to say that the only indication of greater ability is because of a sexuality-related incident, and this only because of how others won’t let him be flawed in any other way in order to accept him. Another character who is basically just badass and gay, however this is deliberately contrasted against other gay characters who are shown to be weaker specifically concerning their sexuality (i.e. one, maybe three, you would probably classify as ‘Badass’, however not in a situation or even mood where their sexuality is also present. Here they are weakass. They aren’t listed as Badass Gay, even if there are other badass tropes there.)
• Gone – one ZCE that seems to be saying ‘this character, like all the other characters (YA action), is pretty badass. In one book, he kisses another guy.’
• How to Get Away with Murder – a character described simply as “bisexual and a badass attorney”, another that is very similar but gay instead of bi, another that is also gay but adds detail of how she is badass. Note that they are not the only characters with any badass tropes, but not all of the lawyers are said to be badasses, suggesting that were there any other similar gay characters who weren’t as ruthless in their occupation, they wouldn’t earn the title. One is also mentioned on the YMMV page under Ensemble Dark Horse, suggesting that being a “Badass Gay Lawyer” aided with this status.
• Person of Interest – one example that explains how one half of what I presume is a lesbian couple flirts with the other whilst performing “her badassery”. Another, longer, example that reads like Ambiguously Bi but applied to a spy(?) however it does mention a high-octane simulation of some sort that is related to what seems to be the ‘spy’ job that makes use of the character’s (then confirmed, clearly it was updated over time) bisexuality. Of course, the double-bullet adding a confirmation that the character isn’t straight needs moving to Bi The Way or something. Interestingly, said character has neither a Bi The Way or Ambiguously Bi entry, something which leads me to believe that Badass Gay (and derivatives) may be being rather commonly misused as Ambiguously Bi for characters deemed Badass; though the aforementioned simulation scenario may be one of few legitimate examples that only a unique Badass Gay trope could cover.
• A Song of Ice and Fire – a good example. Probably quite relevant and unique to the trope. People question a certain character’s fighting ability because of his effeminate qualities and male lovers. However, he is one of the more skilled in his family. There are some implications that he has managed to acquire skill because he is not treating training like some bravado competition, and another that he’ll never lose his handle on his sword for the gay reasons. (Not all of this is mentioned, but I did some quick background internet reading when I thought ‘wait, I missed a gay character?’)
• The 100 – rather quite short example but well explained, seems similar to the ‘simulation’ thing mentioned in POI above, maybe. A female character has a one-night-stand with the main female character, and because of this is attacked by the people hunting the main character for information. However, she fights the attackers off.

edited 31st Jul '16 9:53:39 AM by lakingsif

Looking through similar tropes for things to glean, found Emotional Bruiser: "Oddly, it is understood that, while Men Don't Cry, the biggest, strongest guys are allowed more leeway in this respect than the average man or the hero."

This is suggesting that as long as you're tough, you're allowed to be emotional, and this made me think that the case may be made that the same can go for being effeminate or even just gay: if you're tough, people will be more accepting that you can be camp, or just gay. Physical strength and skill (and in some cases, intellectual skill and ruthlessness) may be like a protective shield for those who are no longer in the closet.

Other stuff to propose (instead of just 'scrap it', come on guys, optimism):

Examples shouldn't, obviously, include where a person is badass and gay, but that's just because they were made to be a badass and just turned out gay. However, there is argument for even if becoming and/or acting badass is not directly (or indirectly, as the case may be) because of a character's sexuality, that just by an effeminate man denying gay stereotypes to actually like the activities that define badass traits is notable, as should be the weirdly high proportion of Lipstick Lesbians that are still ass-kicking in a Bond (girl) way.

edited 31st Jul '16 10:12:27 AM by lakingsif

I think we can agree that the problem with Badass Gay, like all Badass tropes, ultimately stems from the vagueness of the word "badass" in trying to craft a trope out of "Gays who are badass". Let's try to break it down by meaning, such as "Badass=manly", "Badass=fighter", and "Badass=cool character".

• If it's a gay man who defies the Camp Gay stereotype of being effeminate by being extremely masculine instead, that's just Manly Gay (Butch Lesbian is a different matter because that is already a stereotype associated with manliness). I suspect most of the examples for this trope really belong there, especially in ancient works when sexuality and gender attitudes where in some respects the opposite of later eras.

• If it's a gay man or woman who can fight really well, then it's just Fighter+Gay, which isn't a trope to begin with. I doubt even the most ridiculous gay stereotype would make a direct connection between "ability to fight" and "sexuality" without a previous step that links homosexuality to "unmanliness/effeminate". Unlike sexuality, the perception of manliness does have a very archaic link to "ability to fight". Hence, some examples may fit Manly Gay (or Butch Lesbian) better instead.

• If it's a gay man or woman who does awesome stuff, perhaps in combination with one of the above, then it's just Gushing About Characters You Like. Not a trope and not worth listing on the main wiki.

Ergo, I think the best course of action for Badass Gay is to merge examples with Manly Gay (or Butch Lesbian depending on situation) and to cut all the zero context examples and PSOC misuse as "Gay fighter".

edited 31st Jul '16 3:17:45 PM by Morgenthaler

Lets see

• Flamboyant Fighters does not seem to exist for Camp Gay fighters, they exist like Dynasty Warriors has Zhang He who's only concern when talking to scouts was "Was the enemy camp pretty?". Possibly related to Agent Peacock and Sissy Villain. We could rewrite Agent Peacock a tiny bit to better fit Camp Gay flamboyancy.
• For Straight Gay fighters they would probably fit into a serious number of fighting/badass tropes on their own.

• Tomboy Fighter / Butch Fighter does not seem to exist but probably should, I dont want to use the word 'butch' though.
• Lipstick Lesbian fighters would go straight into Girly Bruiser and/or Kicking Ass in All Her Finery.

edited 31st Jul '16 3:10:56 PM by Memers

Action Girl, if that's still knocking around, might well cover Tomboy Fighter. I think Butch Fighter might be a different thing, though.

Of course, I think that a point is being missed that the intention of Badass Gay was for there to be a trope for the characters who, camp or butch or not, are stereotypically less likely to act as a Badass, and those who are so despite what may be perceived as a hindering factor (in the way that being of a different race does not, if you're thinking of equating those). This may be antiquated, but there should be some discussion about if the reasons the trope was made are still valuable for a trope. Also to discuss: if it is a valuable trope if for nothing but the badass characteristics of certain characters diminishing once a creator confirms them as LGBT.

Also, another trope that has arisen in a case of Defend My Sexuality or something, where gay characters become Badass in situations where they need to and that are driven by some conflict related to their sexuality.

And (finally I think) is there a trope about the point of the song A Boy Named Sue? (i.e. he had to get tough because of having a girl's name), because that trope would then cover the Badass Gay examples that are just "he got tough so his strength and/or badass persona acted as his armour closet once he came out".

edited 31st Jul '16 3:23:06 PM by lakingsif

^ Whatever the original intention of Badass Gay was, the biggest problem no matter what redefinition or rename we can settle on is that because Badass was never even a trope (or at least, the word itself was at odds with the far narrower original definition that the page tried to apply), "Character is badass because of or in spite of X" just won't work. We need to stop treating that word as if it has a single definition before we can make any progress here.

When you do break it down into its different concepts and merely add homosexuality to the pot, you end up with examples that are either just Manly Gay or Butch Lesbian, or PSOC (Fighter+Gay, Living Legend+Gay), or gushing (Cool Character+Gay).

Hates having a girl's name should be a trope in of itself, stuff like Kamille in Zeta Gundam have massive issues with it, to the point of punching a military officer in the first episode. to the point of a meme.

Also Action Girl is way too broad. These specifically have issues with being 'non-girly' due to their fighting and such.

edited 31st Jul '16 4:38:50 PM by Memers

Action Girl got into this type of coversation a while ago where it was decided that Action Girl really just means Badass Female and is not really a trope beyond "There once as a time when all females were passive, so it was seen as subversive to be active." But now almost everyone is somewhat active so its not really noteworthy anymore.

The decision was to move as many examples as possible to a subtrope like Cute Bruiser, Lady of War, Iron Lady, etc etc. and only keep the ones that couldn't be easily placed elsewhere. Hence why if you scroll down to the example section it starts with Examples of Action Girls who don't fit into any of the sub-tropes above:

The dewicking process has been long and fraught.

And I feel like thats where this convo is going too. Gay characters used to be not so active, but sometimes they are and we should celebrate that. But that's not really a trope because it doesn't give any context to the series or the character's portrayal beyond "doesn't always sit on the sidelines"

edited 31st Jul '16 4:33:23 PM by acrobox

Defend My Sexuality sounds like the trope name we've been looking for as far as 'badass because or despite of my identity' as in the character acts the way they do because of an explicit acknowledgement of their identity. Either defying stereotypes as not limiting their ability. Or embracing stereotypes to prove their pride. or both at once.

Defend My Sexuality seems to work. We've had weirder trope names before.

I'm almost tempted to suggest to do what we do with Complete Monster: lock editing, bring up potential Badass Gay (or whatever the inevitable new name will be) examples, evaluate them case-by-case, up-vote or down-vote, and go from there, but I'm not sure we'd have enough people.

EDIT: I also took a look at the Badass Trope List and came up with names to eliminate the "Badass + Trait" name scheme.

• Badass Bandolier —> "Band of Battle": Exactly What It Says on the Tin.
• Badass Bystander —> "Forefront Bystander": Bystander who was minding their own business and is now involved for whatever reasons, as in "to the forefront of battle".
• Badass Grandpa —> "Seasoned Grandfather": Name suggests experience and wisdom, alongside whatever 'badass' elements, makes the old man badass.
• Badass Native —> "Incidentally Indigenous": One of my more iffy suggestions, but the name itself doesn't suggest "Badass + Trait" but rather "badass because of trait". Also it's alliterative.
• I Just Want to Be Badass —> "I Just Want To Be Awesome" or "I Just Want To Be Cool": This will probably require overlap or merging with I Just Want to Be Special... matter of fact, what is the difference?

Also, is Big Badass Rig even needed? I almost want this to be cut because it sounds pointless.

edited 31st Jul '16 5:06:20 PM by erazor0707

I think you're right — though the original good intentions are hard to get and/or explain, it is going the way of Action Girl, media is marching on. The examples that are actually examples, some seem to be Ambiguously Gay (for whatever reason), some Agent Peacock, some just Straight Gay, and some *other*. Once we've eliminated what can go elsewhere, we're left with something to make a trope out of. Good for the trope name. (To, like, everyone)

Seasoned Grandfather sounds like an actual grandfather. My suggestions wouldn't be much more explicitly clear, though.

edited 31st Jul '16 5:47:41 PM by lakingsif

Pretty much this.

And does it? My rationale was like how people say "seasoned pro".

On Badass Native I want to say it should be more "primitive" than anything. Skilled Primitive maybe? The trope is clearly about those with less tech and less modern culture but they can still fight and kick ass despite using axes or bows vs guns.

On I Just Want to Be Badass I want to say we should rename it to I Just Want To Kick Ass, focus on the want to learn how to fight and such, it does not need to be successful but that want is there. I Just Want to Be Special is about the attention and such gained from being special.

edited 31st Jul '16 6:31:19 PM by Memers

Isn't that first one basically just Rock Beats Laser?

No, that is completely different.

A Character built around say being Native American, in like say the modern era, and yet he uses an old west cult as a gun or a bow and axes is just purposefully archaic. Often a racial stereotype too despite them being capable in the story. Shania and Natan in Shadow Hearts From The New World would be an example of that. Simply being Native American and a badass is not a trope IMO.

Also then there are the assorted cave men and such that kick ass in time travel stories.

edited 31st Jul '16 6:47:49 PM by Memers

I thought Badass Native had to do with the fact Native Americans are skilled warriors despite the... controversial treatment of them in history?

I think Defend My Sexuality can work if and only if there is an in-universe acknowledgment by the characters that they're defying or embracing stereotypes (though I'm still skeptical because it is likely to be redundant with the tropes we already have for the stereotypes themselves). Otherwise we leave the door open for the same misuse where people just start listing any gay person who does manly stuff, can fight, or does awesome things.

^^ Rock Beats Laser was my first thought as well (or David vs. Goliath). The way you describe those hypotheticals sounds more like Elegant Weapon for a More Civilized Age for the first example, and All Cavemen Were Neanderthals for the second.

^ Noble Savage or Proud Warrior Race Guy?

edited 1st Aug '16 4:46:25 AM by Morgenthaler