Redirect Farming: Vasquez Always Dies

Thank you for putting that better then I could have.

However, in this case the rename doesn't seem to be going to pass.

edited 1st Nov '11 10:24:46 PM by nrjxll

Thank you, group of people who hopped in to call me naive without giving sources. (I'm not asking you to give proof, because we all know how that's going to go.)

But let me play the devil's advocate for a moment here: If people are going to use the trope based solely on the title and context without reading the page, are we really serving the wiki by making that easier? As I noted above, each of the renames suggested has the potential to be used in a much broader scope than the fairly limited one that the trope is discussing. The way the trope is now, someone has to read the page to know what's being discussed.

Yeah, I know, I'm technically advocating intentional lack of clarity and accessibility as a hedge against Flanderization of the trope. Which would definitely be falling under nerdy people talking nerdy to each other, I admit. But the other side of that coin is that we shouldn't assign a new, ambiguous name to something, because that's going to promote more misuse than keeping the name as it is now. If we come up with a name that's catchy and unambiguous- a BETTER name, not just one that is "more accessible," - then I'm all for the rename. I'm just against a kneejerk reaction to seeing a trope named after a character based on the theory that "Character named tropes are just bad."

EDIT: The second paragraph of this post was not intended as a serious argument, just as a point to argue against the idea that changing it is going to magically solve the misuse problem. Please do pay attention to what I say after the devil's advocate point.

edited 2nd Nov '11 11:45:12 AM by Trismegustis

^We wouldn't be making it easier. They're going to do it regardless, short of requiring taking a comprehensive quiz on the definitions of every trope on the wiki before editing a page. This would just make it so that when people do stupid stuff, they don't then make a mess that the rest of us have to go clean up.

"This would just make it so that when people do stupid stuff, they don't then make a mess that the rest of us have to go clean up."

Hate to nitpick, but won't people do stupid stuff regardless of whether the trope name changes or not?

To be fair, I feel like the approach of renaming character tropes goes against a bit of the spirit of this wiki. In some cases, it might be less confusing, but I feel brevity is probably more helpful - I'd rather have a character name that a 5 word description that approximates the trope in question, especially when the character provides the iconic description of the trope in question.

Soooo, what then? It's pointless to have a Repair Shop at all? "Why fix anything when it could always get broken again, anyway?" Is that what you're getting at?

Well, if anything, people who would be likely to do "stupid stuff" with obscure trope names, like this one, would be much less likely to ever do any of that "stupid stuff" if the page had a clearer name.

How did you reach that conclusion?

If anything renaming a trope that isn't made clear when having an obscure movie reference in the title reinforces the spirit of this wiki by giving tropes clearer names that could be understood by a larger number of people.

Having relatively common tropes named after characters whom the large majority of us either don't know or don't recognize at first glance is not something in the interests of this wiki.

edited 2nd Nov '11 12:17:21 PM by SeanMurrayI

"Soooo, what then? It's pointless to have a Repair Shop at all? "Why fix anything when it could always get broken again, anyway?" Is that what you're getting at? Well, if anything, people who would be likely to do "stupid stuff" with obscure trope names, like this one, would be much less likely to ever do any of that "stupid stuff" if the page had a clearer name."

Nope. That's honestly not the point I was trying to make. Probably should've been clearer. If this trope is being misused, and changing the name will help prevent that, then the name change makes sense. However, I must ask, is this trope in particular being misused, or is this message an act of prevention?

Great. So we're agreed. People are going to do stupid stuff with any name that is unclear. Except what I think Sephlid Jam is saying, and what I am saying, is that you're skipping a step here. You seem to be saying- And I apologize if I'm putting words in your mouth- that any given ambiguous five-word trope name is going to be clearer and better than any given character name. I don't see that. All of the names presented here are just as likely, if not likelier, to be misused, and I'm going to presume you all accept that because nobody's refuted my statement to that effect like a page ago. You've all just been saying that character-named-tropes are bad, and that anyone disagreeing is naive.

(Also, can we please put a moratorium on statements to the effect that one or the other thing is true to the spirit of the wiki/we are speaking for the majority of users/we are the Muad'Dib, etc.? I admit I was guilty of this in my first post here, but you've all convinced me that a rename should sink or swim on its own merits. If nothing else, can we start bandying some alternate trope names around while we're committing logical fallacies?)

EDIT: I suck at formatting wikiwords and should not be trusted with them.

edited 2nd Nov '11 12:35:36 PM by Trismegustis

^No, an ambiguous non-character title is just as bad as an ambiguous character title.

However, proportionally more character titles are ambiguous.

"How did you reach that conclusion? If anything renaming a trope that isn't made clear when having an obscure movie reference in the title reinforces the spirit of this wiki by giving tropes clearer names that could be understood by a larger number of people. Having relatively common tropes named after characters whom the large majority of us either don't know or don't recognize at first glance is not something in the interests of this wiki."

Well, really, it's a bit of a reaction to the removal of character names from tropes all over the wiki. People keep bringing up the comment of this being an "obscure" movie reference. Which seems to go against one of what I've always seen as one of the cornerstones of this wiki. Now, I can see the argument that this only applies to examples and not trope names, but I have to wonder - if this was a trope was named after a (as close to as possible) universally well-known character (say, for instance, Mickey Mouse), would we be trying to rename the trope on the grounds that "some people might not get the reference"?

I, for one, am in favor of names that make the reader stop and think a bit - in encourages wiki-walking and it lets people discover pieces of fiction that they might not have otherwise come across.

Mickey Mousing is far from clear - it only survives because it's a preexisting term.

It's named after...hell, I've looked at the page probably twenty times in the process of following this thread, and I still couldn't tell you who the hell the character is.

So, character-named tropes are bad in general because they're obscure. But it doesn't matter whether they'd be bad if they weren't obscure, because this one is.

Dude, we're either talking about this trope or we're talking about character-named tropes in general. You can't say we need to follow the general case and then switch to the specific case when we find a fault in the general.

If we're talking about the general case, forget Mickey Mousing, let's talk about The Worf Effect. That one is used all over the Wiki and widely understood, but it's a character-named trope from a show from the 1980s and 90s. I didn't even notice Worf being beaten up in the show until this Wiki pointed it out to me. If we're really saying that an ambiguously-named character-named trope is as bad as an ambiguously-named non-character-named trope, why exactly is there no rename discussion over there?

There have been. Many, many, many times. It's always been shouted down by "prove misuse."

But we're not talking about other tropes. I've never been talking about other tropes. I'm talking about this one, which has bottom-tier clarity even as character-named tropes go.

edited 2nd Nov '11 1:00:21 PM by INUH

"It's named after...hell, I've looked at the page probably twenty times in the process of following this thread, and I still couldn't tell you who the hell the character is."

Then, perhaps a possible solution (which I've seen in the past on almost every character-named page) would be to add a small paragraph that summarizes who the character is - full name and work-of-origin?

Part of my issue is that there seems to be a stigma against tropes named after characters that I can't seem to find any reason for - [1] is rather unhelpful in explaining WHY it's bad.

So if we're not talking about other tropes, the issue is whether or not we can give this trope a name that is less ambiguous. We will not change the name just because some editors don't open the "Film" folder on the page. If we change it, it's going to be because there is a better name for it.

That's not a solution. If anything, when we're dealing with a trope name that is so unclear that it needs an extra paragraph in its description just to explain what the name is referring to, then that's a sure sign that it's a pretty terrible name.

And there is a better name for this. Both of this trope's present redirects would make for far superior, far more clear and straightforward names.

edited 2nd Nov '11 1:19:28 PM by SeanMurrayI

There's many reasons character-named trope are often frowned upon, and individual character named trope may meet several of these reasons:

1. Fan Myopia: The name only works if you know the character. To someone who doesn't know the character, the name means nothing.
2. Failing at One Mario Limit*
   ^{I'm well aware it is a character named trope}
   : The name is that of multiple characters/people, and none of them clearly overshadows the other: Which Vasquez? Jhonen Vasquez the cartoonist? Tabaré Vázquez the Peruvian President? Sam Vasquez the MMA fighter who died performing his sport?
3. Three Dimensional Characters: This is a problem more with character named trope based on "The X" X is known for many things. Which of X's traits or accomplishments is the trope referring to?

Combine this with, what was said already where people tend to look at a name and not read the description, and you get why character-named tropes are bad.

No they wouldn't.

There, now we've both given unsubstantiated arguments. I already explained why I disagree back on page 2, but I'll recap and clarify. The names presented, particularly in their insistent usage of Action Girl, are likely to attract misuse; there are going to be people who invoke Sacrificial Action Girl whenever an action girl dies, regardless of whether there's more than one Action Girl. Toughest or Tougher seem like they'd solve that problem, but I think that they're going to be treated the same as if it were just "Tough Action Girl Dies," in that the comparative does not necessarily imply that we're comparing her to someone else in the work.

It's like... If we had a trope named "The Good Die Young" and we meant it to refer to how good-aligned characters in fiction tend to die sooner than evil-aligned ones, it still would attract a lot of people misreading the word "Good" and saying "Jimi Hendrix, Just Jimi Hendrix." We may all know what kind of "Good" the trope meant, but a key feature of the trope would be that they have to be virtuous, godly, noble, whatever for the trope to apply, and that isn't made clear in the name.

Also, "The Chick" is an unrelated trope, so using the word "chick" is just adding another layer of confusion here.

So basically, if we changed the name to one of those names, we'd pretty much just be trading one kind of confusion for another. If we're going to change the trope name, I'd like it to be to something demonstrably less ambiguous.

I'm having trouble coming up with good ideas for suggestions... but maybe if we looked at it from the other side - the more traditionally feminine character survives? Just a thought.

How is this related to Sacrificial Lion?

Feminine Girl Lives, Tomboy Dies?

edited 2nd Nov '11 1:45:51 PM by Ghilz

... Well, that changes things.

Uh, in light of the fact that this trope is pretty clearly a subtrope of that...

The Tougher Lioness Is Sacrificed, maybe? If nothing else, the inclusion of the definite article with the comparative and the specific noun would assuage my concerns about the word being disregarded.

EDIT: bluh bluh, i suck at markup

EDIT 2: Also, nobody take this as me givin' up on the trope keeping its name. You guys have made some very convincing arguments, but I still wouldn't say the character-name needs to die.

edited 2nd Nov '11 1:57:28 PM by Trismegustis

Hm, that is an interesting point. It does strike me as related to Sacrificial Lion, but I dislike cloning off of other titles (titles that only make sense if you know of another trope are also frowned upon).

Another big reason character named tropes are frowned upon is the "junk trope for character pimping" habit. Essentially, someone would start a trope with like five examples so they could gush about how the character they named it after is awesome. This was a problem as it led to excessive gushing and eventually led to the cut of one of the most commonly linked pages, Most Triumphant Example.

Even then, a broader version would be "work named tropes", tropes that only make sense if you've seen the works, or "general references to various things" names. Reverse Blade Sword comes to mind.

Look, if you insist, it's only about a hour of my time wasted to do a Wick Check.

I'm not saying that to be snarky, either - I personally feel this name needs to go no matter what, and I'd rather not do it, but if it helps this trope get a rename, then I'm going to see if there actually is any misuse. I'd be surprised if there's not, but if that is the case, then it's another one of those weird flukes and can be left alone for the moment.

Yes, how dare anyone ask you to support your argument. =p

You know, this is kind of a ridiculously specific trope. It's not just Sacrificial Lion, it's a Sacrificial Lion who is Always Female and an Action Girl and is more tough/less feminine than any other Action Girl in the work. The reason I recommend its name being linked to the other trope is that, well, that seems like the easiest and wittiest way to prevent ambiguity about what we're talking about.

It's very noble of you to suggest the Wick Check, but we still really haven't reached consensus on whether or not it's this name causing misuse. I still say all the other names suggested are gonna be misused. Probably moreso. So proving that it is being misused achieves what, exactly? We're just going to be back here again in six months arguing about whether it needs another new name.

In fact, you know what, in the spirit of cooperation, I'll do the Wick Check, so none of your time is wasted. You all just work on thinking up names less likely to be misused than the current one.

EDIT:

Here's the Wick Check.

CORRECT

• Assault On Precinct 13 (Two examples. One of them possibly correct, the other a correctly-stated inversion.)
• Big Guy Fatality Syndrome (As a related trope, but also referenced correctly later down as regards Our Little Adventure... The page for which doesn't list it as a trope.)
• Clock Tower
• Cupcakes
• Dead Rising 2
• Dead Rising 2
• Death Note – Side Characters
• Dick Tracy
• Feast
• Final Fantasy The Spirits Within
• Final Fantasy VII
• Ga-Rei -Zero-
• Giant Robo
• Guild Wars
• How To Survive A War Movie
• Leprechaun
• Mass Effect
• Metal Gear
• Mobile Suit Gundam
• Mobile Suit Gundam: Char's Counterattack
• Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam
• Odium
• Robin Hood
• Second Sight
• Shaman King
• Silent Hill
• Silent Hill Film
• Starship Troopers
• Strange Days (Listed as an Aversion, which should make it not this trope, but the editor did understand the two Action Girl requirement.)
• The Acts Of Caine
• The Descent (Though it could do with some more specificity.)
• The Matrix
• Tomboy and Girly Girl (Another Aversion, but gets the two Action Girl requirement.)
• Video Games
• Video Games
• Violence Jack
• Wolf Creek (Though admittedly subverted. The Vasquez dies first, but the other action girl dies later on.)
• Young Justice

- 38 pages

INCORRECT

• Alien Vs Predator (Probably referring to character instead of trope.)
• Avatar (The movie does actually give an example of the trope, but the editor only mentioned one Action Girl and disregarded the comparative aspect.)
• Badass Spaniard (Referencing character, not the trope.)
• Batman And The Outsiders (Listed as an "Aversion.")
• Battle Los Angeles (Uses it to mean "Spanish Action Girl Dies")
• Bury Your Gays (Incorrectly stated in the description.)
• Chronically Killed Actor (Seems to think it's Actress Typecast As Action Girl Dies In Multiple Films)
• Death Troopers (Gender-flipped example. Otherwise correct.)
• Deep Rising (Doesn't look like there's any other ActionGirls in the work.)
• Disposable Pilot (Seems to think this means "The Vasquez Expy Dies")
• Doctor Who NS S1 E6 "Dalek" (Factually correct, but the editor plainly did not understand the trope.)
• Double Standard (Gives a detailed explanation of the trope... But doesn't mention the existence of another Action Girl.)
• Fallout3 (Aversion.)
• Fallout3 (Any Action Girl being sacrificed =/= this trope.)
• Heroic Sacrifice/Film (Character, not trope)
• You Shall Not Pass!/Film (Character, not trope)
• Galerians (Probably.)
• House Of The Dead (No other Action Girl listed.) [On a personal note, squick.]
• Machete (Probably "The Vasquez Expy Dies" again.)
• Michelle Rodriguez (Or possibly it's just "The Michelle Rodriguez Character Dies.")
• Mindhunters (No other Action Girl listed.)
• Power Rangers RPM (Character, not trope.)
• Recurring Boss Template (Probably.)
• Mass Effect/Revelation (Listed as a Subversion, but no other Action Girl is named.)
• Scream (Probably. There's more than one Action Girl, but there's no sign the editor knew that mattered.)
• Silent Hill (Gender-Flipped Aversion)
• Sorting Algorithm of Mortality (Boils the trope down to "Tough.")
• Spicy Latina
• Spiky Hair (Seems to think it just mean "Action Girl Dies.")
• Star Trek Generations (Character, not trope.)
• Star Trek: The Next Generation (Factually correct by sheer coincidence. Clearly means character, not trope.)
• The Presidio (No other Action Girl listed.)
• The Squadette (Wrong TWICE in two different ways.)
• The Stand (No other Action Girl listed.)
• Titanic (Michelle Rodriguez, not trope.)
• Together in Death (Character, not trope.)
• Torchwood: Miracle Day (Character, not trope.)
• Typecasting (Michelle Rodriguez, not trope.)
• Wing Commander (Male. Page seems to think it's Latin Guy Dies.)

- 39 pages.

(15 are confusion because of the name of the character. 14 believe this just means Action Girl Dies. 8-10 Did Not Do The Research.)

UNKNOWN

• 72 Hours*
  ^{which for some reason I can't make into a Wiki Word}
  (Listed as inversion, but I don't know if any other Action Girl exists in the work.)
• Aliens Infestation (Looks like it COULD be correct depending on which marines are selected, but no idea whether the editor was referring to the trope or the character.)
• Deception Point (Probably wrong, but I don't know the work. Someone thought that a spoilertagged name was all the elaboration we'd need.)
• Doctor Who S32 E10 "The Girl Who Waited"
• Elantris (Two ActionGirls exist and one dies, but no sign as to which is tougher.)
• Katahane (Can't tell whether there's another Action Girl in the work.)
• Literature (Referenced a touch obliquely and I don't know the work.)
• Party of None (Subversion, but the tougher action girl is driven insane, while the less-tough one is let off easy. But it's My Litte Pony, so it might be Nobody Can Die.)
• Resident Evil (I can't tell if this one's right or just a Michelle Rodriguez reference.)
• Sacrificial Lion (Film/Avatar again. Can't tell whether this editor understood it or not.)
• Shatterpoint (Only one Action Girl is mentioned on the page, but Star Wars character names don't make it clear if there were more.)
• The Lad-ette (Uses it wrong...ish. Possibly making a commentary on the reason for the trope. Doesn't look right, though.)
• Total Drama Island (Same problem as Party of None, above. Fits all the requirements, but voted off instead of dead.)
• Western Animation (For the Total Drama Island example.)

DISREGARDED

Pages that weren't using it as an example of a trope, and pages directly related to the Aliens franchise using it to refer to the character as trope namer:

• Action Girl
• The Character page for Aliens
• Aliens
• Always Female
• Avatar (Listed on the Related Search page. Trope not listed anywhere on the page.)
• Death by Racism (Though they seem to recognize that Vasquez Always Dies is NOT Death by Racism, as it's listed as a contrasting trope.)
• Death Tropes
• Trope Namers/Film (For obvious reasons.)
• Gender Dynamics Index
• Henry Hankovich (Page does not exist and has no history, but is listed on Related Search.)
• Rapid Fire (Likewise.)
• Thomas Castle (Likewise!)
• I Thought It Meant/U-W (For obvious reasons. Again.)

-12 pages

And on a personal note, I now know more dead Action Girl spoilers than I think I ever wanted to.

So from these numbers it looks like there is a lot of confusion caused by the current name, but it's split pretty evenly into people who saw Aliens and think it refers only to Vasquez expies, and people who don't understand all the requirements of the trope. I still argue that the names that have been suggested don't deal with that second category, and I'm unwilling to change to anything that won't solve both problems. (I'm willing to write off the group that Did Not Do The Research.)

EDIT: seriously i suck at markup

edited 4th Nov '11 1:24:14 PM by Trismegustis