Discussion YMMV / CodeGeass

• Fourth Wall Myopia: Much of controversy around Black Knights turning on Zero in R2 is result of this trope. Many fans see it as betrayal, just because it was instigated by antagonist Schneisel, despite the fact that Black Knights had some very good reasons to distrust Lelouch starting with the fact that they had taped confession of him being responsible for Euphemia's massacre of japaneese people, the very nation for which most Black Knights fought in the first place (the audience knows this was an accident, the Black Knights don't), or the attack on scientists working on Geass, which came up before Schneisel even contacted him (it was Shoot the Dog moment, since geass was extremely dangerous especially in Britannia's hands but Black Knights only saw Zero ordering attack on civilian complex which couldn't even fight back). Not to mention that Zero actually admitted to having used them (being beyond Despair Event Horizon and attemting Shoo the Dog on Kallen, but still remaining Consummate Liar, Black Knights had no reason to doubt his confession, even if audience knows it was fake).

The reason for removal was: Lelouch was called out for committing atrocities, and in some cases rightly so, even though the Knightts side with the fox in the henhouse. And ZR is framed as a Redemption Equals Death. The B Ks didn't go over the case against Lelouch long enough. The recording was taken out of context. (Suzaku noted Lelouch was lying.) It was Ohgi jumping in that swayed the B Ks against Lelouch, and from that point onward, it was Kangaroo Court. About the tape i have one thing to say: My point exacly. YOU know that tape doesn't show the full truth, Black Knights don't. All they have is a taped confession of Lelouch being solely responsible for massacre of people they were fighting to protect in the first place. About Black Knights not going through case long enough, you might've not noticed but Zero outright admitted that he was using them all along. Why would they believe they need more?

• Informed Wrongness: Lelouch, at least in part. Not a saint by any stretch, nor are his many mistakes and various offenses limited to being "informed" rather than shown, but the punishment he suffered was less bad karma than bad luck. And even though he did a lot of good for the world by the point the UFN was formed, the narrative sees fit to punish him by fake killing his sister and have his subordinates betray him, to the point where he sacrifices himself for world peace in a way that decidedly suggests that it was the only decent thing left for him to do, all the while characters who were more at fault, if not responsible for any of his problems, reaped the rewards instead.

I'm not even going through reason why this was brought back, because they completely miss the point of what i was saying when i took it out. Informed Wrongness is not when character suffers worse than he should for what he did. It's when he's presented as wrong despite not being wrong at all. What's described here is Laser-Guided Karma meets Disproportionate Retribution, and has nothing to do with Informed Wrongness. If this is to be put back name one action not just character that was presented as wrong despite not being so.

Edited by NNinja Hide / Show Replies

Are we sure Unintentionally Sympathetic and Unintentionally Unsympathetic have any place in series so much spiked with Gray-and-Grey Morality as Code Geass? The very nature of these tropes assume that author intended for a character to be liked or disliked, while Gray-and-Grey Morality creates characters that are meant to be debatable, and personally i think it done the part(Considering that Lelouch is both Draco in Leather Pants AND Ron the Death Eater i'd say he can be seen as both good and bad guy) so i don't think that it makes much sense to assume any of these characters were intended as sympathetic or not, maybe except Shirley and Bradley who clearly stand out from overall morally grey series.

Edited by NNinja

The big series of posts on Idiot Plot, if anyone wants to continue it.

Some argue that Schneizel's plan in the later period of R2 amounted to this, somewhat understandably since it did require that the leadership of the Black Knights accept the word of their own enemy rather than giving Zero a chance to offer his own explanation. Others have noted that, untrustworthy source though he may be, Schneizel was in fact completely telling them the truth, so calling them "idiots" is a bit harsh. Particularly since Ohgi rushes in to back Schneizel up halfway through the debriefing.

• Schneizel completely telling the truth? To paraphrase the words of Suzaku from part of Schneizel's recording of the meeting between Suzaku himself and Lelouch that was skipped, that is a lie. In addition to cutting out that part which would have revealed that Lelouch lied in his admission to Geassing Euphie on purpose, Schneizel obfuscated the part that Lelouch not warning about FLEIJA was a setup on part of Schneizel and Kanon, the two having Lelouch arrested and making it look like Suzaku lured him, thus making him sound like he couldn't be trusted when he warned Lelouch about FLEIJA. (Not to mention that there was no former precedent of a weapon of mass destruction.) And don't get me started on Ohgi and Villetta, who had until just earlier been working for Britannia, and quite possibly knew of Lelouch's Geass limits as she had been working to keep surveillance for him over a year, so she had quite possibly been keeping tabs on them. That they had been so easily trusting the words of a standing, and formidably manipulative Britannian prince as well as a Britannian agent over those of an ex-Britannian prince who it should have been assumed might rebelling for some reason, while instead balking at the latter for his status, makes them seem like hypocrites.
• Schneizel missed telling the Black Knights a key piece of information that would have made his argument 10 times more convincing: Nunnally is Lelouch's full blooded sister that he absolutely adores. Given how irrational Zero was acting whenever Nunnally was concerned, it would have made Schneizel's claim that Zero is Lelouch MUCH MUCH more convincing than the brief audio recording and the other flimsy evidence he brought to the table. Oh and how about the part about Lelouch being exiled and thus REALLY hating his father the Emperor (all they say he was a "former Prince"). That would have been good too. The only thing that really supported Schneizel's argument was the sudden and unexplained defections of Gao Hai, Jeremiah, and Guilford.
• Schneizel neglecting to explain those things can be handwaved as an annoying use of the Law of Conservation of Detail. The one that cannot be handwaved is the fact that none of the Black Knights realized that if Zero had used his geass on them, they wouldn't have been able to rebel.
  • And even so, it is a wonder that Lelouch didn't call the Black Knights and Schneizel on this. "If I am so untrustworthy how come you are still able to distrust me? It's not like I haven't had ample opportunity to Geass you into eternal obedience." Then again the situation was specifically right after the FLEIJA explosion and Lelouch was in process of solidifying his DeathSeeker-ness.
• Depends on nature of the impanted order. We don't learn that an order like "obey me forever" is even technically possible until later (and we don't know how much ability to act independently it left to the Britannian mooks). On the contrary, all the prior events suggested otherwise. More importantly, Schneizel never directly accused Lelouch of Geassing the leadership of Black Knights (their faces certainly weren't on the files he gave to them), although he tried to sow suspicion about this. Anyway, while in principle the prior events sufficiently set the stage for Black Knights turning on Lelouch (by, you know, making Lelouch look like an unpredictable madman who issues increasingly evil orders with no clear justifications, in their eyes, never mind giving him a lot of actual sceletons in the closet), the turn itself and Schneizel's exact argumentation were too rushed and poorly done.
• Some of the Black Knights were growing suspicious of Zero, particularly when he disappeared in the Battle of Tokyo, and the massacre of the Geass Order (while they didn't know the details, they knew Zero ordered an operation kept secret from the majority). Todoh's decision was also influenced by Asahina sending him evidence about the Geass Order attack.
• Still though, why trust Ohgi with leadership afterwards after his own dereliction of duty? Moreover, why count on being able to hang on to Japan, assuming they were to actually get it back, not to mention the deal technically went against the Black Knights being a military front for protecting the UFN from Britannia and liberating other nations, as it constituted a ceasefire?
• That whole sequence and everything after it is greatly misunderstood. Firstly, the Black Knights didn't just simply accept what Schneizel was telling them; they probably suspected that there was some merit to what he claimed (it answered many of their questions about Zero) but would have preferred a trial of some sort; however, the fact is, Scheizel didn't ask them to betray Zero - he ordered them to betray Zero; he issued an ultimatum to betray Zero, the alternative being that Schneizel nukes all of them back to the Stone Age. That is why Lelouch went along with it as well - he realized that Schneizel held all the cards and wasn't giving the Black Knights much say in the matter.
  • Ohgi, likewise, didn't sell out The Alliance for the sake of Japan - he merely agreed to no longer wage a war of liberation on Brittania (to topple The Empire and restore independance to all its colonies) and to execute Lelouch in return for his homeland, which was the objective of that mission ll along. Given how badly FLEIJA had upset the status quo, Japan and the rest of the Earth would pretty much be kissing Schneizel's ass for the forseeable future, so if anything The Alliance was grateful for that small token victory of giving Japan at least nominal independence. Once again, the alternative was that Ohgi refused and Schneizel annihilted them all, so in a sense Ohgi scored a victory. The Chinese Federation and the rest of the Alliance was all still safe (more or less) - hence why they are still working with him for the rest of the series.
  • Ohgi still believed Schneizel's side of the story though, and he and the rest of the Black Knights were ready to execute Lelouch on the spot, rather than simply turn him over. They gave Kallen an ultimatum to either step aside or she would be shot as well on suspicion of being geassed when she attempted to speak in his defense. The Chinese Federation and the rest of the Alliance still being safe had much to do with Lelouch's continued existence; had he been out of the picture any earlier, Schneizel would have had them under his heel more likely than not. Let's not forget that the Black Knights were the acting military force of the UFN, as the member nations had agreed to relinquish their military forces; their surrender constituted a mutiny, and worse, it was done with no outside consent.
• Ohgi believing what Schneizel told him is forgivable given that he and the rest of the Black Knights had been suspicious of Zero for some time- the fact that Schneizel was mostly telling the truth can't hurt his case either (it was more complicated than Schneizel presented, but even then it could be argued that Schneizel wasn't lying so much as mistaken; he was still mostly right). The mutiny thing is being far too harsh though- no matter how you phrase it, Ohgi and the Knight were faced with a stark ultimatum - execute Lelouch and surrender, or face total annihilation on the spot. And since they are indeed the sole military force of the UFN, the UFN is doomed to fall to Schneizel either way - the question is does Schneizel need to massacre tens of thousands of helpless soldiers to do that. Ohgi didn't need outside consent - he wasn't faced with a choice that invited it.
  • They DIDN'T HAVE TO execute Lelouch - they were simply asked to hand him over. Nor were they specifically asked to make the decision without outside consent. And ultimately, the onus was on turning on Lelouch - avoiding the threat of nuke from Schneizel didn't enter the conversation. Moreover, Schneizel plays into the fear via ignorance factor given what vague knowledge he has on Geass. He even claims he could be geassed and not even know it!

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• Unfortunate Implications:
  • Dorothea, the only black member of the Knights of the Round, is killed so quickly.
  • In a comical scene from the second season involving Les Yay to Mily a secondary character said "Now it's not the time to come out of the closet." Then, in the English dub "Get back in the closet please"... That was so offensive that they made a second version with "Why do you have to be so different?"
  • Token Enemy Minority Diethard also doubles as the Black Knight's Token Evil Teammate especially when he later abandons the Black Knights to work with Schneizel, who is technically allied to them, and ultimately dies in shame. He is the only member of the Black Knights to not have a happy ending, as opposed to his Japanese counterparts.
    • In fact, pretty much all named Britannians that were ever affiliated with the Black Knights were shown to be at least partially evil in some way. The aforementioned Diethard is the resident Token Evil Teammate, Rolo is a cold-blooded Tyke-Bomb assassin, Jeremiah was formerly a very racist noble, and Gino served the Knights of the Round by killing a number of Japanese prior to teaming up with them. Even Lelouch, who is arguably one of the more noble characters in the series, also has many Byronic tendencies. With a couple of exceptions like Tamaki, who is presented as an uneducated brute capable of various questionable acts despite being from Japan, it seems you must be non-Britannian to be an either purely or perceivably good member of the organization.
    • This apparent cultural bias with the Japanese Black Knights and the portrayal of Diethard can be especially jarring, considering that when he joined it was stressed that The Black Knights were supposed to be a Multinational Team fighting for justice, and your ethnic and cultural background are not of importance.
    • This is debatable, but that may have been deliberate on the part of the show's team to show the Black Knights aren't above issues like racism, cultural bias, etc. It's only ever Zero himself who preaches about equality, not the Japanese members, since even Kallen has issues with seeing Britannians as anything other than evil (though she grows out of it early on), in order to show that they aren't white but grey, especially later on in R2 where their actions have dire consequences. Still, it can be jarring to some viewers that most of the Black Knights never get explicitly called out on their flaws while Lelouch does suffer for his own actions.
  • Nina. Her character embodies pretty much every negative stereotype associated with lesbianism (insanity, attempted murder-suicide, obsession with her crush to the point of yandere-ness) and a few new ones (when was the last time you saw a Psycho Lesbian indirectly kill 40 million people due to her grief?). She does eventually get better towards the end, but only after causing a lot of harm to other people.
  • Ohgi. Some fans consider him Ambiguously Jewish [note]Keep in mind that this is based off of a joke based on his jacket with a Hexagram on it, not to mention the hairdo, so take the flimsy evidence with a grain of salt[/note], and he turns out to be the key member of the Black Knights who sells out Lelouch, who in the end dies in a fashion more or less suggestive of a Christ figure).
  • There are plenty of people who think the show is some Nationalistic mouthpiece used to portray the Americans as villains. Let's ignore the fact that Americans did not get to exist in this universe and that American-styled democracy is seen as a good thing.

Removed these, as citation is required for Unfortunate Implications.

Edited by 1.123.54.214

Can we add The End... Or Is It? to the YMMV tab? There's a particularly infamous cutscene in the very last scene of the show, and the fandom is particularly divided as to whether Lelouch is actually that cart-driver

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Who the hell is "she" the YMMV is talking about?!

I do understand that the subjective tropes were pulled without revising, but still.

   I will consume not only your flesh, but your very soul.    Hide / Show Replies

I entered 3 possible interperatations for Schneizel. I wanna know if anyone else agrees with them. I personally agree with the first option.

"Contests fought between two masters are decided instantly. An invisible battle is now raging between the two of them." Lulu vs Schneizel Hide / Show Replies

Added the Character Alignment. if you have a problem with it discuss it here.