During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Ultimate Moral Compass
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Narajit Malhotra, Countess Elizabeth Bathory, Bathory quote, and Argost rewrite.
to the Countess Elizabeth Bathory quote, the Gul Dukat rewrite, and the Vincent Vladislav "V.V." Argost rewrite.
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to Bathory.
Rawr.
Naranjit (I seriously thought it's another Bollywood film candidate lol), Elizabeth
Pensive Wright
Has the Arrowverse version of Onyx Adams been discussed? She's subject to a continuety snarl, and only physically appears in one episode, but she's pretty horrible for her limited resources.
Naranjit, Elizabeth Bathory and the quote about her, and the Argost rewrite.
EDIT: I posted my draft for Stein in the Sandbox. Here it is:
- Werewolve SS by Jerry and Sharon Ahern: Dr. William Stein is an SS colonel turned werewolf fanatically devoted to restoring the Third Reich. During World War II, Stein captured a werewolf by using captive villagers as bait, then experimented on it for years. Stein then turned himself and his men into werewolves and gleefully slaughtered dozens of Allied soldiers the one time he got the chance, leaving only two survivors. When one survivor recognizes him, Stein murders the man before sending his men to kill his daughter Dannie both to cover loose ends and out of sheer spite. When he's finally found out, Stein simply proceeds with his plan - having infected thousands of unwitting victims with his werewolf serum, he remotely transforms them and looses both his Nazi werewolf troops and the unwilling werewolves on the towns surrounding his base, killing and burning indiscriminately while turning yet more people into werewolves against their will. Murdering tens of thousands of people and more than happy to kill millions more, all in the name of building a global Nazi empire, Stein proved himself an irredeemable beast even in human form.
Also, I don't know why Werewolve SS turns into a red link and I don't know how to fix it. How do I do that?
Edited by MetaBuu on Nov 23rd 2020 at 11:17:34 AM
The wifi here sucks
is there a page for Wherewolves SS?
Edited by papyru30 on Nov 23rd 2020 at 12:19:20 PM
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
There Wolves entry. No there wolves page.
Oh, Papyru, thank you for leaving me to make a Young Frankenstein reference
Edited by Lightysnake on Nov 23rd 2020 at 11:24:16 AM
Goku Black
@Angs: Sure go ahead with an ep. Haven't watched Arrow in years so not sure if she counts as I haven seen her stuff personally
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
So an quick update on the new TNO content. I came in expecting two C Ms for discussion, I will come out with only one to discuss. When I do their EP on dec 5th(and this is not factoring in if the bloated HS will keep this potential qualifier out) I will explain why the other guy won’t qualify.
I will say that the reasons the other guy won’t qualify might cause quite a bit of ruckus on here and I won’t sugarcoat anything when it’s time to discuss. In fact I personally knew the guy making the mod and helped work on it at one point, I knew this storyline was coming and I’ve hinted in the past this was the reason why we might get a Bryce style backlash here.
Personally, and looking at the responses(I genuinely expected mass backlash given the concept but the vast plurality of people actually enjoyed this storyline or at least tolerated it), I think TNO actually did a genuinely decent job with this. Or the most decent approach they could with this rather “I never expect anyone to pull this off” premise.
It speaks volumes to the skill of the writing team that they were able to avoid or contain a Bryce style backlash with their little premise. Through whether this person deserves the narrative assigned to them is another question and raises the question of the ethics of taking historical figures and injecting your own characterization into them.
Unless you play TNO and know what I’m talking about, don’t pm me about this through.
PS: Happy 9500 pages.
Edited by xie323 on Nov 24th 2020 at 5:08:15 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Angs: Go ahead. It's been awhile since I saw that episode so I really don't remember her that well.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Okay, am I missing anything for Alien vs. Predator?
- Comic Books:
- Tommy Spears from Nightmare Asylum (Alien section)
- Bad Blood (Predator section)
- Darkseid (Alien section)
- Niels Reinstot (AVP section)
- Film: Mason Wren and Lighty's guy (Alien section)
- Literature: Beatrix (AVP section)
- Video Games:
- Michael (Alien section)
- Karl (AVP section)
- Isabella (AVP section, since apparently there are references to Alien as well as Xenomorphs)
Huh, so looks like Bad Blood's the only one exclusive to the Predator section.
I'm thinking within each section, organize by type of media, and then organize THAT by release date? OR just forget about organizing by type of media and organize by release date? Come to think of it, that might be a better idea for now, what with only 5 Alien ones and 4 AVP ones.
Possible page header? Alien vs. Predator, as well as each individual franchise, show that the Xenomorphs and Yautja aren't the only monsters to worry about.
Edited by ACW on Nov 24th 2020 at 9:50:46 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yeah you got everything there. And yeah release date sounds like a good way to organize. For now at least. Though I would personally put Isabella in the Predator section. AvP works for her I guess.
Also good header.
Edited by Bullman on Nov 24th 2020 at 9:06:08 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Pensive Wright
Forgive the lack of blue links in this one, I just couldn't think of many applicable tropes.
What's the Work?
The Arrowverse, technically. But practically, Arrow S 6 E 3 Next Of Kin.
Who is Onyx Adams?
An adaptation of the character of the same name from DC comics, but with none of her redeeming qualities. First mentioned in the Legends of Tomorrow episode "Legacies" as a member of the League of Assasins on the Shadow Record who joined in 1743. This was only an Easter Egg, though, and when she physically appears in Arrow, this is totally ignored, and she is portrayed as an ex-CIA black ops operative in 2017, and the Villain of the Week.
What Does She Do?
She’s introduced in the episode waltzing into a Kord Industries building, and flash banging a room filled with four security guards and three developers. We cut away after that, but soon after, Detective Dinah Drake and the SCPD are putting covers over corpses of everyone we saw, they all had died of physical trauma, presumably from Onyx's considerable martial arts skills she demonstrates throughout the episode. It's also possible that her gang helped.
Team Arrow investigates and discovers that Onyx stole the shipment plans for a deadly nerve gas Kord industries created. Team Arrow tries to protect the truck with the gas, but fails, and Onyx shoots and kills the truck's driver and security guard and gets away with the gas, using one sending one vehicle rigged to explode into a populated building to cover their escape. Offscreen, we learn Team Arrow manages to save the building's twelve occupants, but two end up in critical condition (but both recover later).
Team Arrow’s further investigations reveal Onyx's origins; she and her gang were a CIA black ops operatives in Syria, before deserting and stealing $100 million. Three of her gang defected, though, and Onyx has since eliminated two of them by killing them in fake terrorist gas attacks that painfully kill countless innocents around them (we don't get body counts for either attacks, but Felicity brings up a video to demonstrate how horrible the gas in, which should over two dozen bodies under sheets).
They find out where the third and final defector is, while Onyx rallies the rest of her gang to make sure they're all ready to kill a former comrade. They attack the defector at a hotel, sealing the exits, but Team Arrow intervenes. When Green Arrow (John Diggle) confronts Onyx, she detonates the as to cover her escape, referring to the 30+ innocents in the hotel as "collateral." She goes after the defector, but Team Arrow saves the civilians by the skin of their teeth while Diggle takes Onyx down as she’s trying to kill the defector.
Mitigating Qualities?
Assuming, as the Wiki does, the character in Arrow and character in LOT are the same, the Lazarus Pit being the likely culprit, Onyx was once part of the League of Assasins. However, that is all we know about her; not her motivations for joining, what she did with them, or why she left.
She was a CIA black ops operative but defected, and now kills civilians and her former comrades.
There is no question of her being the leader of her gang of rogue agents, so everything they do is directly on her.
Nothing, really.
Heinousness?
I don't know the rules for Arrowverse bad guys, and whether we have to look at the whole verse, or just the show itself. Regardless, Onyx is a traitorous, greedy mass murderer, obviously falling behind Big Bads who have much more screentime and resources, but outshining, to my knowledge, every Arrow Villain Of The Week, at least up to season 6.
Conclusion?
Up to you all as to whether she’s heinous enough, but I think so.
@ACW: Technically Lighty's guy should go first since Burke is before Wren chronologically (and production-wise).
Edited by k410ren on Nov 24th 2020 at 10:32:07 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Leaning towards yes on Onyx.
Edited by Bullman on Nov 24th 2020 at 9:43:22 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Woagh
Shin Megami Tensei IV
to Steelix.
Yep, another writeup. Going back to good ol' Heroicbloodshed cinema, this one stars Alan Tang "The Student Prince" as its hero, with Andy Lau in a supporting role and Simon Yam being scummy all over again.
Today's Work - what is it?
Alan Tang is Luk Ho-tin, a former mob enforcer and hitman in charge of the triads' operations in 1970s Canada. However, after the birth of his daughter, Ho-tin have since decided o go straight - which doesn't last, because the local Canadian mafia who is on bad terms with the triads decides to start an all-out gang war - one thing leads to another, culminating with Ho-tin's wife being killed, and Ho-tin killing the mafia boss in public. Arrested and sentenced to 20 years in prison, Ho-tin had his loyal assistant send his baby daughter to Hong Kong.
Twenty years later, Ho-tin is released from prison, and sent back to Hong Kong, reuniting with his godfather, Uncle Hung, and meeting his Hyper-Competent Sidekick liaison Wah (Andy Lau). Things have changed. The newly-returned Ho-tin gets to meet Madam Tsin Siu Fung, a local nightclub owner who might have information regarding he whereabouts of Ho-tin's missing daughter. But along the way, Ho-tin also stumbles across uncle Hung's protégé and Number Two during his absence, the newly-promoted enforcer named Li Pang (Simon Yam).
You probably know where this is going...
The Candidate in Question
Li Pang is formerly a lowly triad gangster who gains Uncle Hung's favor, rising in position during the absence of Ho-tin. But when greed gets the better of him, Li Pang has decided to usurp control of leadership.
The true colors of Li Pang is revealed during a private night meeting near the docks with a rival triad, when Li Pang betrays his contact and instigates a shootout, killing everyone present. When said contact's family, consisting of his wife and two children, reveals themselves o be hiding on a nearby boat, witnessing their husband/father’s corpse nearby with Li Pang and a large number of armed mobsters nearby, Li Pang tells his men to hold their fire... and instead grabs his own pistol and gleefully execute the woman and both children himself, smirking gleefully all the way.
As Ho-tin attempts to relocate his missing daughter, a relationship had stared to blossom between Ho-tin and Siu Fung, when Siu Fung reminds Ho-tin of his deceased wife 20 years ago. But at the same time, Li Pang sees the brotherhood between Ho-tin, to him a newcomer, and Uncle Hung, thinking Ho-tin will be a nuisance when he inevitably takes over the mob. Despite Uncle Hung's warnings, Li Pang decides to get his hands into the drug business, resulting in two of his underlings being arrested and the police investigating their triad as a result. When Uncle Hung berates Li Pang over his actions, Li Pang decides to take over via Klingon Promotion, shooting Uncle Hung in front of the mob, and declaring himself the new leader.
Later on in the film, Ho-tin learns the truth; his daughter had actually died a year prior, while he was still serving time in the Canadian prison. Now with nothing else to lose, Ho-tin tries going back to Uncle Hung, only to discover his fformer Godfather is dead and the entire mob had gone through a massive restructuring. Li Pang had legalized numerous other activities previously forbidden by Uncle Hung the Good Godfather, including drugs and extortion, and that is actively hunting down everyone that opposes him.
Li Pang then proceed to send out hitmen after Ho-tin, resulting in a shootout that Ho-tin barely survives. Li Pang managed to use that shootout as diversion to abduct Siu-fung, learning that she is Ho-tin’s new Love Interest, intending to use her as bait. Making a threatening phone call to Ho-tin to arrange for a prisoner exchange, Li Pang proceeds to sodomize Siu-fung, who is chained to a bed, forcing her to scream into the phone to intimidate Ho-tin. As an understandably enraged Ho-tin angrily negotiates with Li Pang, Li Pang’s demands are simple, for Ho-tin to give himself up in exchange for her life.
The next morning, Ho-tin surrenders to Li Pang, who had himself surrounded by a legion of mooks. But however Ho-tin came ready, backed up by a handful of loyal followers led by Wah, culminating in a huge shootout in the streets lifted from a John Woo film. The good guys managed to take down Li Pang’s minions, but then Li Pang decide to drag out his trump card - Siu-fung, who had a time bomb strapped to her chest. Taunting that Ho-tin won’t shoot for fear of setting off the bomb, Li Pang gleefully whacks Siu-fung with a wrench, making her bleed right in front of Ho-tin, before shooting Ho-tin and Wah. Injuring both the heroes non-fatally, Li Pang intends to keep hurting Siu-fung and make both Ho-tin and Wah suffer as long as possible, but Wah reveals he had a pistol strapped behind his back for Ho-tin (Hey this is a Heroic Bloodshed film released 2 years after The Killer, got to have a homage somehow). Ho-tin grabs the concealed pistol and guns down Li Pang, but in his dying throes, Li Pang detonates the timebomb on Siu-fung, blowing her into bits.
An enraged Ho-tin decides to make sure Li Pang is truly Deader than Dead by grabbing a nearby Uzi and emptying its contents into Li Pang. But the film ends on a Downer Ending, when the police arrives and arrests everyone; the Epilogue reveals that Ho-tin, Wah, and all of Ho-tin’s surviving followers are sentenced to life imprisonment.
Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Nope, nada. Uncle Hung treats Li Pang as much as a surrogate son in Ho-tin’s absence, but Li Pang had greed and thirst for power taking the better of him. Uncle Hung even expresses his regret that Li Pang even had the audacity to delve in dealing drugs, which his organization forbids, but Li Pang’s response is to shoot Uncle Hung (the only person in the film that remotely cares for Li Pang) before taking over the organization.
How About the Heinousness Standard?
This being Heroic Bloodshed, main characters Ho-tin and Wah are anti-heroes at worst. They both had a heart and loyalty, following the code of honor, while Li Pang is the only character portrayed as an outright despicable scum.
Li Pang starts off by double-crossing a rival triad, killing off a betrayed informant’s family himself with glee, and goes on to killing his former Benevolent Boss to take over the syndicate, and keeps getting worse from there.
Should We Count Li Pang then?
Yeah, he seems nasty enough.
Edited by RobertTYL on Nov 24th 2020 at 11:51:42 PM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Li Pang. Extortion wasn't allowed previously? Huh.
Maybe I missed it, but what's the film?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
Pang
Yes to Onyx and Li Pang.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Onyx and Li Pang.
Argost rewrite looks great buddy!