Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Also read the Alice Isn't Dead novel and Thistle...holy hell, she got a whole host of new crimes, and some of her origins detailed throughout.

to the RDR 2 candidates bar Colm, as well as Father.

Another candidate, again a Batman one. This one is my first "rediscussion" of a candidate, and though I'm not sure if he'll count, I found what's been called 'new evidence' to bring to the table and wanted to do another, more decisive discussion on him. Once again from the Batman Arkham franchise.

Who is the Penguin? What has he done?

Oswald Chesterfield Cobblepot, better known as the Penguin, is a Cockney-accented crime Lord defined by his short, fat stature, and his love for umbrellas that double as guns or swords.

A wealthy child picked on by others for his appearance, Cobblepot began running with gangs, building up a reputation for ruthlessness at the same time that his parents squandered much of their wealth on trying to dismantle Gotham City's greatest family, the Waynes.

With his parents dying soon after, Cobblepot assumed the estate of his family and instantly began blaming Bruce Wayne for ruining the Cobblepot name, developing a seething hatred for him as Cobblepot built himself up in the criminal empire.

In Arkham Origins, Cobblepot rules a large chunk of Gotham's underworld, smuggling and selling dangerous and highly illegal guns to street gangs and thugs, kick-starting many bloody massacres and crime waves in the city, uncaring of how many bodies his guns claim so long as he's making a profit.

Cobblepot runs gambling rings, where he specifically works to utterly bankrupt and ruin the lives of everyone who plays to make himself richer, mainly through cheating. If anyone discovers he cheats or tries to chest him, Cobblepot has them brutally tortured and murdered, and often displays them in his prize luxury vessel the Final Offer (Many victims are seen throughout the ship, notably a man who has been pinned into a wall with knives).

Also orchestrating illegal fight clubs, Cobblepot often uses them to force dozens of potential recruits to his gang to fight to the death, with the last man standing being recruited.

Desiring to get rid of the Falcone crime family and leave himself more turf, Cobblepot kidnaps the boss's son Alberto, beating and preparing to torture him with a cattle prod to convince his father to pull out of the crime business.

Later Cobblepot allies with Mr. Freeze, planning a raid on Wayne Manor during a charity gala to kidnap Freeze's enemy Ferris Boyle. As Freeze and Penguin's goons kill many of the guests, Cobblepot orders his men to find and murder Bruce Wayne and set Wayne Manor aflame with all the guests inside to sate his hatred for the Wayne family.

Cobblepot eventually betrays and tries to murder Freeze to keep his technology for himself before being frozen alive then captured and sent to Blackgate prison.

In Arkham Origins Blackgate, Penguin, Black Mask, and Joker stage a takeover of Blackgate, where Penguin instantly captures a third of the prison's security forces and begins forcing them to fight to the death against either each other, or Bronze Tiger, a prisoner Cobblepot forces to help him after Tiger tried to save a guard from death by hanging at Cobblepot's hands. Cobblepot also uses several of the prison's guards as human shields against the other guards to enable easier capture.

In one of the endings for the game, when Cobblepot is re-captured, it's revealed he had Catwoman plant bombs on hostages throughout Blackgate that could collapse the entire prison, and while Batman saves the hostages and stops the bombs, Cobblepot bribes a guard into freeing him then beats and murders him just for being mildly rude.

In Arkham City and its tie-in comic Arkham Unhinged, Cobblepot murders several police officers who try to capture him and put him into the prison Arkham City, then proceeds to set up shop in Arkham City anyways out of pride. Cobblepot continues his crimes there, routinely torturing and murdering both enemy gangs and his own men for minor failures, then displaying them as trophies for fun.

In his homebase of the Cyrus Linkley Museum, Cobblepot is shown to have the long-decayed bodies of dozens of victims scattered throughout the building, regularly feeds his men to his pet shark Tiny, and hands several minions over to the zombie monster Solomon Grundy to be torn to shreds.

Cobblepot also murders his chef for giving him a plate of food that reminded him of Joker, continues hosting his illegal fight clubs where dozens are murdered every time, injects several of his men with TITAN to turn them into mutilated monsters, throws dozens of his men to their deaths fighting said TITAN monster just to slow it down and tire it out, keeps Mr. Freeze in torturous heat as a trophy, regularly accepts mutilated and lobotomized inmates from Professor Hugo Strange, who Cobblepot uses for target practice, and all while waging gang wars with Two-Face and Joker due to the fact that Cobblepot refuses to accept a partnership with either of them, even when they offer truces to end the slaughter.

During a raid on Joker's territory, only accessible with bridges, Cobblepot bombs said bridges even while his men are on it and still in Joker's turf, killing many of them and leaving the rest stranded in Joker's territory. When his men point this out and scream that they'll die, Penguin simply laughs and says "try to kill some of his men before you die."

When confronted by Batman, Cobblepot reveals he has kidnapped ten Gotham City police officers, gunning one down in front of Batman, leaving another to be eaten by Tiny, freezing one's hand and smashing it pieces one finger at a time while forcing Batman to listen, and then attempting to murder two more with Mr. Freeze's freeze gun.

Soon enough, Cobblepot is recaptured and locked away after trying to kill Batman with Solomon Grundy.

In Arkham Knight and its tie-in comic, Cobblepot returns to the streets once again, continuing to torture and murder his way up as a crime lord. Cobblepot notably blows up an entire building filled with his own men while trying to kill Batman, sends a recreated Suicide Squad to murder Bruce Wayne only to unleash Killer Croc onto all of them when they start failing, and continues his trend of treating his own men like garbage, breaking the arm of a goon who's other was broken in a fight just for a wrong choice of words.

Once allying with Scarecrow, Cobblepot fully endorses his plans to flood Gotham with Fear Toxin, smuggling in weapons and munitions to be used in the takeover of Gotham.

When Batman and Nightwing begin destroying his weapon caches, Cobblepot captures and beats Nightwing, planning to torture him to death after luring in and killing Batman. This plan fails, and though attempting to stage another breakout, Cobblepot is eventually beaten and locked away for good.

Throughout the series, Cobblepot routinely and regularly threatens intense violence on his henchmen, promising to torture and murder dozens of them when he gets the chance, all just for being beaten by Batman.

Does Cobblepot have a Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?

None to be seen. While Cobblepot is outraged at the Wayne family for 'dismantling' his, it's treated as egotistical pride, not genuine care or love for his family.

And while Cobblepot is shown to sometimes get angry when his employees are harmed (like when Joker murders one of Cobblepot's waitresses for a petty reason), it's again instantly clarified as solely being a pride thing, with Cobblepot often saying it's a "humiliation" when something of "his" is damaged by anyone other than himself.

Is Cobblepot sufficiently heinous?

Originally, taking only Arkham City into account, he was ruled to not be heinous enough, and seeing as the heinous standard increased since then, it seemed like Cobblepot was left further in the dust.

However, not only do I bring new crimes that have never been discussed to the table, but I also bring forth a different kind of argument. Yes, Cobblepot is a crime lord like Joker, no he doesn't have Joker's explicit bodycount of thousands, nor Scarecrow's of attempted millions.

However, something that I think should be considered is that Cobblepot is a very different breed of villain from Scarecrow, Joker, Strange, or Calendar Man. They are all compete psychopaths who want high bodycounts—Cobblepot isn't. Cobblepot is a crime lord who wants power and to rule Gotham as a kingpin, not to kill millions, inspire fear, become a god or follow a deranged "calendar" of crime.

Other crime bosses like Two-Face, Black Mask, etc? They function like Cobblepot—as crime bosses just wanting money and power—but do not get up to near the bodycount, sadism, or destruction of the Penguin.

Cobblepot is a vile customer either way, with countless amounts of torture and murder on his hands, and being the most explicitly terrible boss in the entire game series. We see dozens of tortured, dead bodies throughout the games and comics, and he has many, many more that aren't seen. He tries to burn down Wayne Manor and its dozens of occupants, bombs countless of his own men and leaves them to die in enemy territory, tortures and kills police officers over speakers while making Batman listen, ruins the lives of others in gambling and then kills them if they try to back out, cheat, or prove he himself has been cheating, and his hand in the Blackgate incident is another big mark on his heinousness.

I think, taking into account the fact that Cobblepot is a more pragmatic, power-seeking villain than the others—who just want mass death or to be worshipped as the Slayer of millions—Cobblepot could very well make it.

Final Verdict?

I say . Cobblepot is a different breed of villain from Joker, Strange, Scarecrow or Calendar Man, and that manifests in different ways. I think saying "he hasn't tried to Joker Gas, poison, or inject Fear Toxin into thousands" isn't the best argument because Cobblepot never attempts or even wants anything like that. He has a very high bodycount of murder and torture that spans across nearly every work in the franchise, with nothing redeeming about him.

I'll understand if he is voted down, but I think he deserves a final, decisive vote that encompasses all of his crimes and actions.

Sorry about taking a while to get this. Just wanna run this through you guys before I add it to the drafts

• Death Note: The Musical: Light Yagami, aka Kira, may have a lower body count than his manga counterpart, but he is just as evil. Mere moments after getting the Death Note, he abandons his claims of justice in favor of his own interests. He goes on a massive killing spree with the Death Note, and when confronted by an FBI agent and L task force agent, forces them to Psychic-Assisted Suicide with the book. He manipulates his girlfriend Misa into killing for him, and, when he gets an opportunity, convinces Rem to write L's name in her Death Note, killing both Rem and L. As L realizes that he is going to be forced to kill himself, Light continues to gloat over him.

My fundamental issue with Cobblepot...even if he doesn't want it, it doesn't change that he doesn't get up to the same actions. He's bad,, yes, but what the others do, all their torture and murder? I'm not sure Penguin does enough to distinguish himself to them....

The comics, however...hmmm....not sure here. I might just lean yea.

This, btw, is definitely what I'd call a good faith effort to reopen a discussion with new evidence.

Edited by Lightysnake on Nov 20th 2018 at 2:42:57 AM

• Trace: The father of Jeong Hee-sub' was a Mad Scientist studying the Trace. Formerly a loving father desperate after discovering that he and his family were becoming Traces, he started to use humans as material. Selling his own family to the goverment, he subjected them to lethal experiments of which only Hee-sub could escape. Sewing the mouths of his "material", Jeong used the families of many innocent traces—children included—as guinea pigs, sewering their heads and preserving them around him. When Hee-sub and Kim Yun-Seong came to his secret labotory, Jeong tried to excuse himself claiming that he did it for the sake of humanity before trying to kill or experiment in them. Dying ranting that he wouldn't ask forgiveness to his victims, Hee-sub' father killed entire families for his own greed and curiosity.

I wonder if I should mention that many fo his victims are children? Or that he tried to experiment in a teenage girl. After the part of killing many families, I think that is already obvious. Dunno? ACW, what do you think?

Edited by KazuyaProta on Nov 20th 2018 at 6:26:15 AM

Kaz: I'd make it "used the families—children included—..."

So, Lighty, should I put an Thistle expansion on your to-do (and should it stay in Web Original or be moved to Lit?)?

I'll read the Penguin effortpost tomorrow. If he does count, it'd be his first incarnation (though not Cobblepot's first).

Hmmm....it might be different enough to justify a separate EP. "Thistle" is...considerably more horrific in the novel due to the format giving her more ability to be.

Separate EP=separate entry? Huh, I can't think of the last time THAT'S happened.

Well, shit. Go for it.

Edited by ACW on Nov 20th 2018 at 6:01:04 AM

For the novel, yeah. Actually, in the novel, Lucy is pretty clearly not a keeper as she is in the podcast (she has some regret over what she's doing there), but Thistle? We get details of how long she's been active (IE: as long as humans have existed, solely so she can 'cause more pain') and details of what this entails (one incident was inspiring the murder of 13 kids)

Anwyays, though...I think with all the murder and torture from the comics with it, I may give Cobblepot a tentative yes.

Edited by Lightysnake on Nov 20th 2018 at 2:57:29 AM

Penguin

Yes to Penguin.

A tentative for Copplepot

Cobbleplot

Haden, the dad, Penguin

So, anyways, I'll be adding my write-up for Light to Drafts soon. But, for now, fitting with my status as the musical guy, here's another possible, albeit, less so, candidate for CM. This one is... well, a whole fuck ton goofier.

What is We Will Rock You? WWRY is a Jukebox Musical based entirely around Queen music. On the iPlanet previously known as Earth, Globalsoft runs all. Real music no longer exists, instead replaced entirely by machine-made music. Girls have entirely become the Ga-Ga Girls, conformist teens, never stepping out of line. Generic pop music rules the world, and nothing will ever come to exist beside it.

Except... a prophecy. The prophecy foretells that one day, real music shall return. The Killer Queen, Alien CEO of Globalsoft, is bent upon stopping it. But there is a resistance. The Bohemians. And no matter how they try, the Bohemians will have their Rhapsody.

Okay, yeah, it's the culmination of goofiness. Nonetheless, I do have a candidate. The KQ can't count, she's far too Laughably Evil. Most of the other villains lack personality. But, beside her, the KQ has a chief of security, her Hypercompetent Sidekick.

Who is Khashoggi and what does he do? High Commander Khashoggi is the leader of the Killer Queen's security. He is in charge of tracking down the Bohemians, and hoo boy, does he do it. He starts out arresting a Bohemian spy, and then checks with a teacher. He captures the unsuspecting heroes Galileo Figaro and Scaramouche, and puts them in prison. Galileo and Scaramouche escape, and Khashoggi seems bewildered. They escape, and Khashoggi and the Killer Queen meet with the rest of her council. It seems that he's been fooled.

Anyways, Galileo and Scaramouche get embroiled in their own adventure, culminating in them meeting the Bohemians. They spend a little bit of time in the Heartbreak Hotel with the Bohemians, and they (and the audience) get to know them, particularly a girl named Meat (Sometimes her name is changed) and a boy named Britney.

And then Khashoggi bursts in, captures the entire resistance, and murders Britney in cold blood. Next we see him in Act Two, he is gleefully torturing the resistance, minus Galileo and Scaramouche. When he realizes he can't get anything out of them, he, y'know, has them all electrically tortured to death. Well, technically, he has them brain-drained, but, yeah, they're brain-dead. He then accidentally reveals Scaramouche and Galileo's escape at the exact wrong time, and Killer Queen also kills him via brain-draining.

Heinous standard? He makes it. The KQ is completely played for humor, and he is the only villain who is both not generic and not played for humor. Whereas the production endears the audience to KQ via Laughably Evil, they endear Khashoggi to them by giving him a huge dose of Evil Is Cool, complete with Cool Shades and Putting on the Reich. He stands out as the most evil character, with a large body count, whereas KQ's only onstage casualty is him.

Mitigating factors? Khashoggi is working for a hilarious leader, but he himself is only Played for Laughs ever so slightly when interacting with her. Much of the time, he is played over-the-top in a way, but not in a way that's especially comedic. He also establishes himself as a sadist, as murdering the entire resistance in a cruel way was completely unnecessary to the plan. And, in case you're wondering, he definitely enjoys it. There's a reason the transition between Flash and Seven Seas of Rhye is punctuated with an evil laugh. That said, the entire show is reliant on Narm Charm and Crazy Awesome, so he himself isn't too serious in the regard that the audience sees him as scary.

Freudian Excuse? None.

Verdict? I could take it either way. The show really is absolutely absurd, but Khashoggi also murders a number of people, including the whole resistance, happily. However, that is if you can get past how utterly absurd the show is.

Alright, you know what? I'll vote yes to Penguin. I've always contemplated challenging the decision to cut him, but hesitated because I too doubted that he truly stood out among the other psychos in the franchise. But in light of all these undiscussed atrocities, I think he does enough to comfortably rub shoulders with the likes of Joker, Strange, and other such villains.

Cautious no to Khashoggi because the whole setting sounds a bit too goofy.

Don't know if Khashoggi counts (holy hell that's uncomfortable to type), but that show sounds Crazy Awesome.

@Hamburger Time: Hey, if Judge Doom can qualify given he's a batshit insane toon in a very colourful and goofy setting, I'm sure it's possible to have a character count from a similar setting.

Also I remember in this trope's earlier days where even characters with legit Freudian Excuses were on it such as Denzel Crocker of all people.

I'm leaning no on penguin if only because I don't think the games ever took him that seriously, not saying he was a joke but I remember him coming off as more of a nuisance compared to the other villains than as a serious threat on a similar level as the other C Ms. My memory is somewhat spotty on this so feel free to correct me. (I should clarify that I have not played Knight)

I get what you're saying but I always felt like his roles in the games were always tangential to the main plot and that he was just there when they needed a secondary antagonist to act as a level long threat in between more important moments.

Edited by papyru30 on Nov 20th 2018 at 5:31:16 AM

Ah, but Doom was a true Vile Villain, Saccharine Show (I'll have to cut that Knight of Cerebus pothole when I de-pothole the Disney page).

Edited by ACW on Nov 20th 2018 at 7:17:20 AM

papyru: While regularly beaten down and humiliated, Penguin never gets treated as a joke. He's a Butt-Monkey in the sense that he often gets his shit pushed in harder than a lot of villains as punishment for how horrible of a person he is, and he's never treated as an outright joke in a way that would be disqualified.

Also gonna echo Hamburger Time's no to Khashoggi for similar reasons.

Edited by FriedWarthog on Nov 20th 2018 at 4:19:59 AM

Penguin

No to Khashoggi.

It is Crazy Awesome if you have the right mindset. I think I ought to clarify that Khashoggi is played significantly more seriously than the rest of the show, although, that's saying very little.

By the way, his torture and murder of the Bohemians is not played for laughs at all.

Edited by Riley1sCool on Nov 20th 2018 at 4:47:44 AM