Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

I believe Rasputin is far to played for laughs to really qualify. That, and he fails the Disney villain heinous standard (which is why such villains as Scar were disqualified).

I saw that villain song and I could not take him seriously at all. Unlike the Joker who's a serious threat even when he's Laughably Evil, Rasputin didn't seem like the type of villain who would be considered a legitimate threat.

I. I STILL think Scar should stay.

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

Rasputin's not a Disney villain. Anastasia was made by 20th Century Fox, II Rc. not saying he qualifies, just that's the wrong standard.

The Roommate: Ugggh, that movie was misogyny written all over it...I'm inclined to cut for that reason alone.

Prom Night: cut, generic slasher

Guyver examples need expansion

Richard III...I need to think. He's clearly heinous as hell, but at the end he can almost seem too pathetic.

Room 1408 is an eldritch location, and clearly sentient and evil...that said, is it comprehensible?

The House Of Anubis needs expansion. I'm not remotely familiar with the series

Now And Then Here And There

• Complete Monster - After seeing King Hamdo, you will never look at crazy villains the same way again.
  • How much of a monster? Early on in the series we hear him kill a cat with his bare hands.

I've seen this series, and this definitely needs a rewrite.

• King Hamdo of Now and Then, Here and There is a raging and unpredictable tyrant who uses child soldiers as cannon fodder. Hamdo evokes the smallest drop of sympathy because he is obviously insane and in great pain - and then he kills his cat in a temper tantrum and sexually assaults a little girl. His second-in-command warns him that one of his tactical moves will directly result in the bloody deaths of thousands of children, and his response is, more or less, "So?"

This is on the Anime and Manga Subpage, that is definitely better. It should probably mention how he recruits, stealing children from villages, and having them destroyed (killing everyone they left) so they can never go home again.

Also, I want to revisit Twisted Metal

• Complete Monster: Calypso. In the Twisted Metal 2 intro, Calypso's only regret about the death and destruction of the previous tournament was that Los Angeles was no longer a suitable site to hold Twisted Metal. He loves death and destruction, and takes delight in the ways he screws over his contestants.

All others have been cut, and I'm still searching the back-log for reasons (found a few already), but this I'm calling into question. Twisted Metal 2 and Head-On Calypso isn't an example, he's causing all the destruction and death, but in those games his daughter is playing. In both it's implied she and his wife died in an accident. In the first, when she wins, he congratulates her and expresses joy at her still being alive. She reveals that she's just a cyborg/robot sent to kill him, he still embraces her as she explodes.

In Head-On, she's furious with him for killing all those people, and wishes for the accident to have never killed her. This wish shows that Calypso is forced to use Exact Words in his wishes, as he can only change her fate so she's in a coma, he still gives her a sort of dream machine showing what it was like when they were still alive.

Other than that, his personality and history changes throughout the games, in most he's made some sort of Deal with the Devil, in the 2013, it's implied he is the Devil.

Small Brawl: Lighter and Softer, he's just a bully. No

Twisted Metal 3: Kind of an average Deal with the Devil screw you over kinda guy, from what I've seen.

Twisted Metal 4: He's Usurped and Needles runs the Tournament instead, so he doesn't do enough to qualify.

2013: Possible count, he's the devil, or so it seems, and he regularly hosts tournaments that kill many people. He screws over the three protagonists in various ways (though only one was sympathetic).

edited 10th Mar '13 3:09:55 PM by DrPsyche

I wanted to slightly challenge anime!Legato. While I know he lacks the backstory detail given in the manga, I still think it somewhat came through.

In particular, its the fact that as part of his omnicidal attitude toward humans that he doesn't exempt himself- he's totally devoted to aiding Knives and agrees 100% with Knives' philosophy to the extent that he has no expectation of being spared (and in fact doesn't want to be spared).

It kind of leaves me interpreting him as possibly disqualified because of love for Knives, as well as the fact that he does his evil actions because of sincere belief- the philosophy isn't an excuse for evil; he's evil because of what he believes, and will follow that belief even when it leads to negative consequences for himself.

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki

I would like to ask why Penguin from Batman: Arkham City couldn't be considered a Complete Monster.

• "The character is truly heinous by the standards of the story, which makes no attempt to present the character in any positive way."

He passes this criteria. He is shown to be just as bad - if not worse than - the Joker, who is listed as a Complete Monster. He tortures cops for fun, kills his own men for no reason and laughs about it, keeps people in cages where they starve to death or, in Victor Fries' case, they overheat to death, etc. etc. Cops, Mr. Freeze (a villain) and even INMATES (and these guys are portrayed as being disgustingly evil, too) keep talking about how evil he is and one of them is even quoted as saying that it might be awful to work for the Joker, but it would be even worse to work for the Penguin. The Joker is portrayed as being an absolutely horrible boss, who kills his men when they fail and often kills them for no reason other than fun. Some of them even say, "You think Arkham City is bad? It's gonna get a lot worse if the Penguin takes over" (slight paraphrasing). It's also worth noting that the Penguin and the Joker are portrayed as being rival faction leaders who are just as bad as each other throughout the whole game.

• The character's terribleness is played seriously at all times, evoking fear, revulsion and hatred from the other characters in the story.

He passes this criteria. The only thing that comes even remotely close to a "comedic" moment with him is when he accidentally hits one of his henchmen in the nuts. Most of the time, he's played as seriously as it gets. We can hear him brutally torturing a cop by smashing his frozen hand, while laughing, and the cop's screams of agony are pretty much the most disturbing moment in the game. As for "evoking fear, revulsion and hatred"... when cornered by Batman and begging Batman not to hurt him, the Bat was so disgusted by everything he'd done he said "I can't guarantee that". Mr. Freeze hates his guts and had to be stopped by Batman before he killed him. That's "revulsion" and "hatred" for you. "What about fear?", you ask. Just look at his mooks. Every single one of them is terrified of him.

• They are completely devoid of altruistic qualities. They show no regret for their crimes.

Oh, he definitely passes this criteria. He has not a single Pet The Dog or Even Evil Has Standards moment, and is shown to be nothing but a sadistic, greedy bastard. He doesn't regret anything he's done and, if anything, he's actually goddamn proud.

I've read this thread before, and I saw no good reasons to leave the Penguin out of Complete Monsterdom. The only argument that was used was an incredibly nonsensical one, saying he shouldn't be considered a CM because he was torturing cops, not civilians. Apparently this person was confusing Pragmatic Villainy with Even Evil Has Standards. There are very few civilians in AC, and none at all in Penguin's fortress, so he had no reason to leave the comfort of his lair to find some if cops came marching in instead. At no point does he ever suggest he DOESN'T like hurting civilians, however. Besides, if Mr. Blonde from Reservoir Dogs is considered a Complete Monster for torturing one cop and making it clear that he ONLY likes to torture cops (something the Penguin is shown to do in excruciating detail, too), despite being a lot more affable and less monstrous than the Penguin, shouldn't the Penguin be considered worse than him and, thus, a Complete Monster too?

Because The Joker, among others, are worse. That's why. The Penguin hurts those who oppose him. The Joker hurts anyone he encounters. One of these is worse than the other.

As for the Resevoir Dogs comparison, it doesn't hold up. No one else in the film does what Blonde does. Conversely, The Penguin's actions are nothing special in Arkham City.

Finally, next to none of this is shown. It's all talk. Offscreen Villainy does not count.

Under that logic though, Hodor, wouldn't we have to cut all Knight Templar types? And all fascists, Stalinists, and religious fundamentalists of every stripe? Legato fundamentally believes that all of humanity should be exterminated, sure. He's devoted to his nihilistic viewpoint the same way that a religious madman is devoted to his vision of God. Don't see how that's a disqualifier though.

EDIT: I have requested that the one-shot character from Season 7 of Supernatural be removed. Still awaiting review of my rewrites for Alistair and Hagatai. Will now tally votes on Zacariah, The Horsemen, Crowley and Azazel.

EDIT: Rewrite for Anton Arcane looks good.

edited 10th Mar '13 3:29:25 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I'd like to bring up the issues raised in my post 9811 again.

Does simply existing in the same 'Verse mean there has to be a direct heinousness comparison? If he's the worst guy who appears in the particular issues/series/whatever where he shows up, then I think that'd qualify him for CM status. In other words, if there's a direct comparison between him and those other, much greater villains, then he wouldn't count as a CM, but if he's consistently the biggest bad "on camera" at the time, then he would count as a CM. Or such are my thoughts, anyway.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Generally that is what we do. So for instance, we don't disqualify The Joker because of the presence of Darkseid. The issue with Moses Magnum is that he's not a series villain. He's fought Luke Cage. He's fought The Punisher. He's fought Black Panther. He's fought The Avengers. He's a general Marvelverse villain, and thus has to get measured against other general Marvelverse villains.

I don't think the cuts for Tabletop Games were ever initiated. Since I started visiting this thread, the only things we seem to have done are remove Desus, add Kazavon, and replace the comment about all slashers counting with three specific slashers and a cultist. If you wanted to post all the cuts we requested to the edits to locked pages page, I would have no objections.

Cut Bester if we voted on it. And burn that Walker Texas Ranger example too.

EDIT: We seem to still be tied on Zacariah (two for cutting, two for keeping) and no one's made a good case for removing Crowley. Can I burn Azazel and The Horsemen though?

edited 10th Mar '13 3:26:30 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

RE your comment on Knight Templar types, I'm willing to cut some slack for characters who do evil because of a belief in instances where they follow that belief even when it brings them no personal benefit

I would contrast someone like that with characters for whom a belief is an excuse for evil, and they will act with hypocrisy to save their own skins).

I can't speak for all Knight Templars, but I would say that if a character falls into the first type of behavior, they are much less likely to count than someone of the second type. Its the difference between O'Brien and Vidal.

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki

Dr. Psyche is right on Calypso, though Sweet Tooth/Needles should stay.

The Penguin...not sure I want to revive it, but I'd lean more towards including him. Frankly, he does seem as sadistic as Mistah J in this game and has no issue trying to murder civilians (he thought Bruce was one)

Nrj Xll:

I want to cut all B5 examples except Refa, Cartagia, Jha'Dur and Clark. What say you?

Burn the Walker Texas Ranger example

I'm just not sure how following that belief makes the character better. If I believe that all existence is meaningless, and I therefore try to kill everyone I meet, planning to end it by killing myself, it doesn't make what I'm doing any more justified or understandable.

I can see excluding a character like that if what they're doing is essentially a glorified suicide run, but that's not what Legato's doing, is it? He just wants to end the world because he subscribes a particularly nihilistic philosophy.

edited 10th Mar '13 3:32:04 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Criminy, we need to compile the Tabletop cuts...

No argument there. We talked a lot about the cuts that were necessary, but we never did much.

In regards to Sonia, I'm going to change my vote to 'on the fence' as well. Though leaning quite a bit towards Against.

I checked the previous discussion... and there was only one other vote for Sonia by a person not listed below. There wasn't very much discussion or votes, most agreed that though the Sandbox wasn't perfect, it was better than the previous page.

SONIA:

FOR: Lightysnake, Septimus Heap, Super Saiya Man

AGAINST: Aqua Regia, Native Jovian, Amber Sonof Deshar, Paireon, 32Footsteps, Very Melon, Klavice

UNDECIDED: Trigger Loaded, Hamburger Time

3 for, 7 against, 2 abstain. Is that enough consensus to cut?

---

Also looking at the previous discussion, there was one vote for Valter by Dark Confidant. And one vote to remove by 32 footsteps. That brings it to 1 for, 4 against. Probably enough to cut.

Not many votes on the Video Game/Tearringsaga. Still, I agree that the first two are rather poor. Though I don't think the third one is a good example, either.

Don't take life too seriously. It's only a temporary situation.

I don't remember what the cuts to Tabletop Games were for the most part. I just know that most of them were obviously not put into effect.

Going to do a post on the Babylon 5 section in a bit.

Since no-one else is commenting on SKX, do I have permission to add him?

I say go for it.

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts

@Ambar Sonof Deshar Like I said, the Joker is maybe just as bad or only slightly worse than him in this game. No "among others", those two are the top two most evil villains in Arkham City. What other character did you think could be compared to them? Second of all, I don't think it counts as "off-screen villainy" if you can hear it happening a few rooms away from you, does it? Even if it does, the whole "torturing cops" thing is just one of the many, many grotesque things he does. You can still see all the people he keeps in cages, all the corpses he morbidly poses in display, you can hear him threatening to kill his men and you're there when he traps a bunch of his goons with the Joker goons. If that's not enough for you, then the Joker shouldn't be considered a CM either, since everything HE does could be considered Offscreen Villainy too. Everything the Penguin does is just as explicit, if not even more explicit than what the Joker does. Also, just because a character isn't THE most evil character in a work, it doesn't mean he can't be a Complete Monster. As long as he fills all criterias, he can be considered a CM too. Otherwise, all works would only have ONE Complete Monster, and we know that's not true, since some works even have entire pages dedicated to their Complete Monsters.

First of all, most of those pages are being trimmed down. A lot of godawful examples got added to this trope during the decay years. So don't use that as proof.

Secondly, yes there can be multiple CMs. Happens with a fair amount of frequency. However, those are, with incredibly rare exception, cases where the characters are radically different, one lacks power that the other has, etc. In an example I'm fond of citing, Bask Om and Yazan Gable of Zeta Gundam both qualify. This is because one is a general officer, and the other a fighter jockey. Yazan can't do nearly as much as Bask, yet if he was at the same level of power, would be just as awful. There's plenty of other examples like that around.

Other times, in arc based shows, the big bads of different arcs might manage to qualify. Dragon Ball Z, much as I'm not a fan, is a good example of that. Frieza, Cell, and Kid Buu, who all exist independently of one another, all manage to hit the right criteria, have very different personalities, and do not eclipse one another save in terms of power.

None of those arguments apply to this case. The Penguin and The Joker appear in the same game, and have similar levels of power. This means that The Joker can and does eclipse The Penguin.

Finally, here's the discussion that saw the character get cut: it starts at 305 and goes on for quite some time.

I need to think of how to best summarize the character and issues if necessary, but after seeing tonight's episode of Once Upon a Time, thinking that Cora is definitely disqualified. Spoilers ahead

Up til now, she's been shown in flashbacks as very emotionally abusive to her daughter Regina, and a major cause of Regina ending up as the "Evil Queen", but in more recent episodes (in both the present and more recent past), there were some hints that Cora genuinely loved Regina and wanted to improve their relationship (in addition to teaming up and killing their enemies).

Well, in tonight's episode, we got Cora's backstory as the Miller's daughter in the Reumplestilskin story (predictably for the show, with a twist). I can give more detail if necessary, but the salient part is that Cora loved Rumpelstiltskin (one of the show's major characters), and removed her own heart, feeling that Love Is a Weakness- and throughout, her various evil actions were done with a lack of heart/lack of capacity to love. (it also shows how Rumpel loved her too, and served as an Evil Mentor, teaching her to draw power from her hatred of the nobles who looked down on her).

Well, at the end of the episode, Snow White kills Cora by doing dark magic over her heart, and tricking Regina into putting the heart into Cora's body in order to restore her ability to love (its a weird show). Well, when the heart is returned, Cora lights up with emotion/love toward her daughter, and as she dies, says that it would have been enough to have Regina's love (as opposed to all of the evil scheming she did to advance Regina while literally heartless).

I feel a bit guilty about citing a character being The Soulless as an excuse, since I've argued agaisnt it for Voldemort, but in this case, the character is actually shown as having the "soul" restored and shows improvement, in addition to the fact that Cora displays love for her daughter and Rumpel, and gets an Alas, Poor Villain.

edited 10th Mar '13 9:09:01 PM by Hodor

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki

I am contesting the pulling of Mr. Hattrick from YMMV/Bully. The original entry was

Mr. Hattrick is the only character in the game without any redeeming or sympathetic traits. He bullies students and faculty alike, desires capital punishment to be installed in schools, and it's even hinted that he was responsible for the friendly fire incident that killed The Hobo's platoon.

As I've said before, even as the criteria for what makes a complete monster have changed over the years, he has always fit.

The character is truly heinous by the standards of the story, which makes no attempt to present the character in any positive way.

• Check. Hattrick is not misguided or oblivious, he doesn't need to fight for rank in the pecking order, and he doesn't need money because he's already rich. And instead of being content with handing out wedgies or detention, he tries to ruin people's entire lives (trying to get Galloway fired from his job and enrolled in an asylum), tries to get capital punishment installed in the school system. It's even strongly hinted that he's a murderer - responsible for shooting up members of his own platoon while at war in Korea, and driving his wife to suicide.

The character's terribleness is played seriously at all times, evoking fear, revulsion and hatred from the other characters in the story.

• Check. Everybody in the game except for the oblivious authority figure Dr. Crabblesnitch hates him, and the adults who he decides to bully certainly fear him. He has no comedy moments, no funny lines, and isn't involved in any jokes. If he's on screen, things are serious.

They are completely devoid of altruistic qualities. They show no regret for their crimes.

• Check. A simple reading of the Bully script will prove this. When Hattrick does finally get caught doing something wrong and fired, he just storms off angrily. Up until then, he's nasty almost to For the Evulz level.

Russell... likes to hurt people... for PEACE.

So, I've reached the end of the Captain Jack subplot in Shin Megami Tensei Strange Journey, and I promised I'd weigh in on him when I did, so here I am. I'm going to vote keep. He's... difficult to describe without playing the game (especially since there's very few moving sprites in this game, making what qualifies as an "onscreen action" hard to judge), but rest assured he's a sociopath and Torture Technician who's Only in It for the Money even with the apocalypse looming. Compared to the other villains in the game:

• The Demon Lords can all join you, which probably violates the "no player choice" clause. Individually, Asura and Morax are bog-standard, Mitra has Blue-and-Orange Morality, Horkos is Laughably Evil, and the Mothers (Ouroboros, Tiamat, and Maya) are Well Intentioned Extremists because they seek to return the world to nature by eliminating humans.
• Lucifer is shifty and less sympathetic than he sometimes is in these games, but he's still fighting YHVH, who's worse (though presently out of commission) and can be sided with.
• Mastema is basically the same as Lucifer, but working for the other side. He can also join you.
• The Wisemen are the closest to CM other than Jack in my opinion, but I question their moral agency; they speak in unison, repeat things over and over, finish each other's sentences, etc. indicating they may be some sort of Hive Mind or something else not fully sentient. You can also side with them if you so desire.

Yay big, busy weekends...

Watched Once Upon a Time as I typed this; all I'm saying is prepare for a pretty big argument as to whether or not Cora counts after this ep. Could be funny.

EDIT: Haaaaahahaha! I was right! Thanks Hodor!

DBZ Abridged: Yeah, gonna have to vote cut on any CM candidate from that at the moment and for the foreseeable future.

Alex from A Clockwork Orange: novel!Alex cut, movie!Alex keep, as his last line shows him to be a Double Subversion, not a subversion.

@Native Jovian: BOTH points about Sonia were invoked, so we discuss both.

Killing a cat may count if cats are sentient. Come on, guys, use a bit of imagination. Felidae, anyone? Not saying she counts, but blatant humanocentrism is a pretty big pet peeve for me...

James Bond movie villains: Haven't seen all of them (or saw them too long ago to remember), so here goes for those I do remember: Goldfinger - keep. Drax - keep (why the hell do I remember this one more than most of the better Bond films?). Zorin - keep. Sanchez - keep (don't mind remembering that one though - methinks Timothy Dalton's Bond was always underappreciated). Carver - keep. Stamper - cut. Didn't see any of the Craig Bonds yet...

Crash Bandicoot: No idea, never played. Have major doubts though.

Grizzly Tales For Gruesome Kids: Eh, Uncle Grizzly reminds me of the Cryptkeeper more than anything. Cut.

Stardust: Arg, my backlog's killing me. No idea.

Brotherhood Of The Wolf: Oooohh, love that movie to bits (that I'm a canadian frenchie probably has a lot to do with it). I think I'll rewatch it this week to remember Jean-François better (another reason I love that film: Vincent Cassel is awesome).

Supernatural: Wow, Ambar, you really have to PM me about your beef with this show. Kinda vindicates my own misgivings about the show. I'd love to get on the NGE discourse with you and 32 as well.

Hatagai: Good start, but yeah, as Lighty said, he dates Suzu's older sister - knowingly I might add, both as a cover for his pedophilia and for the sick kicks the situation gives him on so many levels (among other things, you see, Suzu was the Grumpy Bear in a family of Wide Eyed Idealists who'd try to look for the silver lining in anyone and anything, even him).

Condemned: Leland could be a fit I think, though those games are pretty damn dark.

TV Rulez Again's Cartoon Network examples:

Space Ghost Coast To Coast, Time Squad: Goddamnit, why? Why must we always deal with examples from shows built on having people being sociopaths for our lulzy amusement? If Cartman doesn't count, they don't either. Cut.

Johnny Test, Tiny Toon Adventures: ...Aaaaannnd another category I'd really like to see less of. Cut.

Ben 10, Generator Rex: Didn't we discuss these already?

No idea about the others.

Arnim Zola and baron Strucker: Could count, need to scope them out.

Ultron: Yeah, I say keep. The worst models pretty much all have the same personality at their core, so that personality at least counts.

Mephisto: Most likely keep of Marvel's demon lords IMO. Not sure yet though.

Blackadder: Gah! Cut!

Revolutionary Girl Utena: Yeah, I'd see Akio as counting. Methinks he's a great example of a non-murderous CM given the level of cruelty and callousness his manipulations entail. A rewrite would be good.

Count Kinkle from Moon Phase: Also rewrite and keep.

Black Doom from Shadow The Hedgehog: Looks pretty heinous, would maybe depend on how far into implementing it he was. On the fence.

Bill Sykes from Oliver Twist: From what I know he's a keeper. We must have forgotten about him what with all the other stuff we have to vet and/or argue about.

Bill from Rampage: Population control? In a north american rural town? Sounds like a lame excuse used more as a bad joke. I'd say keep.

Men in Black 3: Eh, I'd need a bit more info.

New 52!Anton Arcane: Needs a bit more writeup, but oh dear God in Heaven who I don't particularly believe in does he count. Again. Keep.

Kree Supreme Intelligence: Cut.

Moses Magnum: Complete asshole, sure, but not quite heinous enough. I say cut.

TV Rulez Again's next batch of zero context examples: Expand or cut, except for Anastasia's Rasputin: him just cut, period.

King Hamdo from Now And Then Here And There: Rewrite and keep. Ugh that guy's horrific.

Twisted Metal: Agree with cutting all non-2013 Calypsos; have to scope him out. Though I would have thought at least one version of Sweet Tooth counted... Wonder what disqualifies him.

Agree with Ambar's assessment of anime!Legato; sincere belief in a cause is not an absolute disqualifier. I still say keep.

B5 examples: Agree that Refa, Cartagia, Jha'Dur and Clark are keepers; Bester does evoke a slight amount of Sympathy for the Devil, so I won't complain he's gone. The others don't really measure up.

Still voting no on Batman Arkham City!Penguin, though I agree he'd count in a lighter work (i.e. one where The Joker isn't getting his full-on freak on).

edited 10th Mar '13 10:11:48 PM by Paireon

I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.