Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

To me, he just barely makes it.

Also, the Out of Mind miniseries is largely serious with only a few bits of humor.

Do what you want, I'm not arguing.

edited 17th Sep '17 5:07:01 PM by SatoshiBakura

Hmmmm.....I wonder why Sigma was barely just make it into CM territory. Any potential mitigating factors for him

Oh, you were talking about Sigma? No, he doesn't. None of the A.I. count. Their nature as fragments driven by what emotion was fragmented off of Alpha disqualifies them on moral agency standards.

Wyoming barely makes it to me, but I won't him unless enough people him. Otherwise, I will just abstain.

edited 17th Sep '17 7:09:45 PM by SatoshiBakura

Wyoming. Not bad enough.

Here's an interesting one: Actor you're surprised has been in a work with a CM. Off the top of my head, I say Molly Quinn who's been in three: Castle, Hansel and Gretel Get Baked and Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2.

Now for my edits. Here are the original versions:

• Hollywood Homicide: Antoine Sartain is a greedy record producer and the owner of Sartain Records. When one of his acts Klepto discovers Sartain is stealing the money made from his music and puts him in jail, Sartain orders Klepto to be shot in the streets. When rap group H2OKlick discovers Sartain doing the same thing to them and try to follow suit, he sends two armed gunmen into a crowded nightclub they're performing in and has them killed too. He later has Leroy Wasley kill the two gunman so as to not have to pay them and to cover his tracks. He also has Joe Gavilan, K.C. Calden and witness K-Ro shot at in a drive-by. Later on, he shoots at Joe when Joe publicly chases him, threatens bystanders at gunpoint who get in his way and then tries to kill Joe in a fight when he won't let Sartain escape.
• The River Wild: Wade, along with his partners Terry and Frank, are trying to make it across the river with money they robbed from a bank. When Frank, whose also their guide, proves useless due to his wounds from the robbery, Wade forces a reluctant Terry to kill him. With no guide, Wade asks Gale Weathers to help them get across. When Gale finally becomes suspicious of Wade, she and her family try to leave them behind. However Wade catches them and beats her husband Tom, attempts to kill their dog, and slaps her son Roarke for telling them he had a gun. He then uses her family to blackmail Gale into taking them across the Gauntlet, despite the risk of their lives. When her husband escapes, Wade tries to kill him, but not before taunting him about how many seconds he has to left live. After a park ranger, who is also a close friend of Gale's, catches them and discovers their plan to ride the Gauntlet, he refuses to let them, so Wade kills him and jokes about it afterwards. After Gale gets them across the Gauntlet, Wade and Terry get caught in their trap and Gale turns their gun on them. Wade begs for his life, so Gale decides to shoot the last bullet in the air out of mercy. However the gun doesn't shoot, so Wade orders Terry to kill her family, despite her sparing his life.
• Designated Survivor: Patrick Lloyd is the head of a now-disbanded military firm who creates the secret Pax Americana movement in order to stage a hostile takeover of the US. He obtains numerous high-powered explosives, authorizing the use of one of them to blow up the Capitol building during the State of the Union address, killing nearly everyone inside. Lloyd arranged this through his possession of electronic blueprints of the bombing that were created to prevent such an attack and also has access to other blueprints made intending to set up other possible attacks, including one on the Golden Gate Bridge. His additional crimes include having the terrorist Majid Nassar, who was paid to take the blame for the attack, murdered to silence him; having FBI Director Jason Atwood’s son abducted and threatened to force Jason’s cooperation, later having the boy killed when he’s no longer valuable; and trying to assassinate HUD Secretary-turned-President Tom Kirkman is nearly assassinated in order to put new Vice President Peter MacLeish into office on Lloyd’s authority. Lloyd's primary operative, Nestor Lozano, is the perpetrator of that attempt and also kills Jason Atwood; abducts Agent Hannah Wells; and leaves a bomb at the FBI Building that nearly takes the whole thing out if not for Hannah’s interference. Lloyd also plans for Abe Leonard, the reporter he manipulated to cause trouble, to be eventually killed. Lozano, before he is killed while Lloyd escapes, is able to break into the Pentagon and steal the nuclear launch codes which will enable Lloyd to both hold the country hostage and to target any other country at his own whim.

The edits:

• Hollywood Homicide: Antoine Sartain is a greedy record producer and the owner of Sartain Records. When he's put in jail for stealing money made off his acts and one of them, Klepto wishes to break his contract, Sartain orders Klepto to be shot in the streets. When rap group H2OKlick discovers Sartain doing the same thing to them and try to follow suit, he sends two armed gunmen into a crowded nightclub they're performing in and has them killed too. He later has Leroy Wasley kill the two gunmen so as to not have to pay them and to cover his tracks. He also has Joe Gavilan, K.C. Calden and witness Oliver "K-Ro" Robideaux shot at in a drive-by. Later on, he shoots at Joe when Joe publicly chases him, threatens bystanders at gunpoint who get in his way and then tries to kill Joe in a fight when he won't let Sartain escape.
• The River Wild: Wade, along with his partners Terry and Frank, are trying to make it across the river with money they robbed from a bank. When Frank, whose also their guide, proves useless due to his wounds from the robbery, Wade forces a reluctant Terry to kill him. With no guide, Wade asks Gail Hartman to help them get across. When Gail finally becomes suspicious of Wade, she and her family try to leave them behind. However Wade catches them and beats her husband Tom, attempts to kill their dog, and slaps her son Roarke for telling them he had a gun. He then uses her family to blackmail Gail into taking them across the Gauntlet, despite the risk of their lives. When her husband escapes, Wade tries to kill him, but not before taunting him about how many seconds he has to left live. After a park ranger, who is also a close friend of Gail's, catches them and discovers their plan to ride the Gauntlet, he refuses to let them, so Wade kills him and jokes about it afterwards. After Gail gets them across the Gauntlet, Wade and Terry get caught in their trap and Gail turns their gun on them. Wade begs for his life, so Gail decides to shoot the last bullet in the air out of mercy. However the gun doesn't shoot, so Wade orders Terry to kill her family, despite her sparing his life.
• Designated Survivor: Patrick Lloyd is the head of a now-disbanded military firm who creates the secret Pax Americana movement in order to stage a hostile takeover of the US. He obtains numerous high-powered explosives, authorizing the use of one of them to blow up the Capitol building during the State of the Union address, killing nearly everyone inside. Lloyd arranged this through his possession of electronic blueprints of the bombing that were created to prevent such an attack and also has access to other blueprints made intending to set up other possible attacks, including ones on the Golden Gate Bridge and the White House. His additional crimes include having the terrorist Majid Nassar, who was paid to take the blame for the attack, murdered to silence him; having FBI Director Jason Atwood’s son abducted and threatened to force Jason’s cooperation, later having the boy killed when he’s no longer valuable; and trying to assassinate HUD Secretary-turned-President Tom Kirkman in order to put new Vice President Peter MacLeish into office on Lloyd’s authority. Lloyd's primary operative, Nestor Lozano, is the perpetrator of that attempt and also kills Jason; abducts Agent Hannah Wells; and leaves a bomb at the FBI Building that nearly takes the whole thing out if not for Hannah’s interference. Lloyd also plans for Abe Leonard, the reporter he manipulated to cause trouble, to be eventually killed. Lozano, before he is killed while Lloyd escapes, is able to break into the Pentagon and steal the nuclear launch codes which will enable Lloyd to both hold the country hostage and to target any other country at his own whim.

I'd say nay to Wyoming.

Anyways, time for my next John Shirley candidate. This one might surprise you all a bit...

What's the setting?

Batman: Dead White is a prose novel set chronologically early in Batman's career, not technically a canon book but with the same overall setting. Part of a trilogy also consisting of Batman: Inferno (which I plan to get to later) and Batman: Fear Itself, this book tackles the themes of racism and prejudice in the most over-the-top way it can. Batman teams up with a black cop named Cormac after his son is kidnapped and a wave of violence comes over the city. The perpetrator? Meet White Eyes.

Who is White Eyes? What has he done?

A hulking brute of a man with piercing eyes and a body constantly pumped up on his "Aryan Formula" steroids, White Eyes — or the "Big White," real name Hiram Bunch — is the leader of the Bavarian Brotherhood, a white supremacist militia group in Gotham. Initially content with preceding over racially-motivated killings and organized crime, White Eyes decides to go bigger to sate his psychotic ambitions of a "pure" world, turning to dealing sophisticated, deadly weaponry instead. One of the arms dealers, a rat of a criminal named Skeev associated with the Brotherhood, is captured and arrested by the Gotham City Police Department. To provide an early showcase of what we're dealing with here, White Eyes pays the man a direct visit in jail and strangles him to death. Utterly intolerant of failure, White Eyes leads a wave of new crime throughout the city... robberies, arms deals, and several murders through his goons, whilst simultaneously coming into conflict with Batman himself. Dubbing Batman "Bat-jew" due to his... interesting breakdown of whom he thinks Batman actually is, White Eyes fights off Batman himself a few times — in one case nearly murdering a hapless security guard to distract him — and eventually makes a point of making his intention to murder everyone Bat loves before killing Batman himself.

Now, anyways, for Cormac's son... White Eyes kidnaps both Cormac's son, Gary, and Gary's son Beth, bringing them out to his mountain headquarters. We learn White Eyes regularly kidnaps dozens of innocent minorities and forces them to work as slaves in an abandoned gold mine for months at a time until they eventually die from exhaustion, hacking apart the bodies of the deceased and chucking them into a pit which the other slaves are forced to use as a bathroom. White Eyes' intention for Beth is especially vile... seeing her as good "breeding stock," White Eyes intends to rape her as many times as it takes to father a son out of her, noting to himself it's likely going to take a few tries — but, of course, it's worth it. Gary eventually learns from the other slaves what White Eyes' ultimate plan is... he wants to use the weapons under his hand to attack key areas all over America and eventually "occupy" Washington by attacking and overthrowing the White House, throwing America into chaos and establishing a brutal race war that'll leave him as the sole dictator of the United States. White Eyes vision is a simple one; a perfect Aryan land where all those who don't fit the mold are herded into death camps and executed without mercy.

To showcase the power of some of these weapons, White Eyes brings out two traitors to the Brotherhood and has Esperanza, his resident mad scientist (whom he also allows free rein to experiment on people as he will) to display his weapon, a missile launcher capable of instantaneously melting and exploding flesh. White Eyes makes a grand speech — proclaiming that he'll avenge such wonderful people like the Branch Davidians, Timothy McVeigh, and of course Hitler himself — and his eventual intention to rise the sun of his own design over the world and burn all the "mud-races" off of it, compounding his speech by letting Esperanza use the weapon to tortuously kill the two test subjects then and there as his men applaud. Just then, Batman and Cormac arrive and a furious battle begins... Cormac reunites with Gary and White Eyes, agitated, attempts to rape Beth right then and there while he has the chance before Batman stops him. Batman and Beth get out and White Eyes prepares to flee with his henchman Del, abandoning his own men to either death or the incoming feds, reasoning he can just pick up with new contacts all around the world... Al-Qaeda, he mentions, is one he intends to work with.

Driving out, White Eyes reveals he's going right for the Capitol, intending to blow it up and destroy the US government in one fell swoop. When Del reveals he doesn't have the nerve to abandon the rest of his men, White Eyes coldly guns him down and drives out on his own. Oh, and the best part? Before this, White Eyes has been espousing that he's been on a divine mission to stop the Antichrist and that the lower races are spawns of Satan... and then reveals that's a load of bullshit; the Antichrist is "whoever he says it is" and he only needs that symbol to exploit to rally people who actually do believe that nonsense so he can crush his enemies. Taking a family hostage from a private airstrip, White Eyes is confronted one last time before he can attack the Capitol and threatens to slaughter the family right before Batman's eyes. Before he can do that, Batman disables him with a well-placed Batarang and strikes White Eyes a few good times in his crucial nerve areas — before knocking him out cold with one last strike to the jaw. With that, White Eyes is defeated, left to the authorities, and his dreams of an Aryan empire are crushed forever.

Any mitigating factors?

The closest thing we get to an excuse is that his father was also a racist who occasionally beat him. Anywhere near enough to justify what he does? Good God, no. Aside from that, zip and zilch in terms of redeeming qualities; he's merciful to Del for a good while but eventually murders him himself once Del stops being in his favor, cares not a whit for any of his other followers, doesn't even believe in his own horrible philosophies, and utterly blows past the heinous standard even by the standards of a Batman villain. White Eyes is a Bad Boss who murders several of his own men and leaves the rest to die, establishes a slave mine where the slaves are worked for months at a time and eventually disposed of, kidnaps a young woman with intention of raping her as many times as it takes to impregnate her, and with aspirations to turn America into a cruel hellhole where the racially impure are purged, with full intention on moving onto the rest of the world.

Conclusion?

We have an easy keeper here, folks.

Thoughts?

and that's a bingo.

A very narmy sounding example of a bigoted villain due to his sheer over the top nature, but yeah: White Eyes is an easy yes.

Yeah, I will say this... Shirley is a good writer, but he does not do subtle with his villains. Hence why me and Lighty have discovered at least six of his that have kept for the trope.

And a yep to White Eyes. He's another one who it sounds like if he was in continuity with the comics we'd have to scratch a few off that list for how bad he is.

for Wyoming to White Eyes

to Wyoming. Not heinous enough.

Something else to note is that he randomly has a British accent due to Rule of Funny despite being one of the more serious parts of early Red vs. Blue.

edited 17th Sep '17 9:30:11 PM by Karxrida

White Eyes

From what I recall from Red vs. Blue, Wyoming doesn't qualify for failing the heinous standard. Satoshi's detailed write-up just reinforces my opinions, so he's getting a .

I'll give White Eyes a though. Sounds like a pretty easy addition.

I got a good image suggestion to put for the Image Links page.

edited 17th Sep '17 10:27:11 PM by SithPanda16

Did I miss the Twin Peaks discussion? Can't see anything on the past few pages. It's been reserved I can see.

for White Eyes. "Bat-Jew," fuck that's funny, what a shit.

edited 17th Sep '17 11:51:18 PM by DrPsyche

White Eyes. Throw in some hypocrisy to boot.

Nope. Lighty's told me he hasn't caught up with Twin Peaks yet, so I think discussion is fair game for anyone. Want to run us down if you're able, Psyche?

Ok then. Let me write something up. There's a few candidates to propose, and the current example, BOB, could be re examined with some new info. Spoilers BTW.

I didn't watch it, but from what I heard, the ending is a REAL Mind Screw. Of course, this is to be expected from a David Lynch work.

Right off from the start... one I don't think counts? Richard Horne. The guy's pure scum with not a likable trait about him, but I think he fails the heinous standard and his worst crime is accidental.

I'll look forward to the discussion, particularly where it concerns BOB, but until then? I'm passing out. See you all in a few hours.

edited 18th Sep '17 12:04:42 AM by Scraggle

See you later. Big Write ups will be Richard, BOB, Mr. C, and maybe Judy

What's the Work

Twin Peaks is a surreal cop show, wherein the town of Twin Peaks's homecoming queen has been raped and killed. FBI agent Dale Cooper comes in to help with the investigation and we see Twin Peaks as a town full of strange people and evil supernatural monsters.

The series has a sequel after 25 years wherein the narrative spreads out from Twin Peaks. Cooper is missing, the FBI is trying to find him, and the Twin Peaks sherif's department is dealing with new troubles.

First the new crooks: Most of the new criminals don't count

• Ray Monroe: Insufficient heinousness, and he might be a secret good guy with Gordon believing him to be an FBI mole. No major crimes outside of trying to murder the main villain.

• Hutch and Chantal: Lot's of killings between the two of them. They killed several criminals and others people that the Doppleganger wanted to get rid of. They try to kill a motorist when Chantal get's into a bit of road rage, but he kills them. They lack heinousness and love each other.

• Ike: He violently kills two women with an ice pick and later tries to kill Dougie with a pistol. Not really a standout. Lacks Heinousness

• Duncan Todd: Mob Boss, tries to kill Dougie and has those previous women killed by orders of the Doppleganger. Not especially heinous, he's mostly doing things under pressure of the Doppleganger.

• Red: Forget Red, he's a weird outlier with an unfinished story. Just a drug dealer.

• Chad: He's a major major asshole and he tries to kill Andy at one point and hides evidence, but not really heinous enough.

edited 18th Sep '17 12:43:25 AM by DrPsyche

So that brings us to the main talking point, the Doppleganger.

Who Is He

Major Spoilers for the original Twin Peaks:

When Dale get's trapped in the Black Lodge (a supernatural limbo) in the finale of Twin Peaks we learn that every person in the lodge has a Doppleganger, an evil opposite. As Dale is in conflict with BOB, the Doppleganger appears and laughs at him. Dale never makes it out of the Lodge, but rather the Doppleganger does, and pretends to be Dale.

The Doppleganger becomes the new host for BOB, carries BOB inside of him as he goes about the country. He performs a number of killings, rapes, and criminal activities all to collect Garmonobzia, which is human suffering given form (as Creamed Corn).

Actions

The Doppleganger goes about his new business to accumulate as much human suffering as possible. He intends to find some sort of creature at BOB's order, a creature he doesn't seem to knowledgable about.

Mr. C, as the Doppleganger is often called, visits Major Briggs after he checks himself out of the hospital. Briggs recognizes that somethings off, and Mr. C kills him, decapitating him and burning down the location he was in. After that he visits Audrey in the hospital. Audrey had been in a coma since the explosion at the end of Season 2 and he rapes her while she's unconscious, ultimately leading to Richard Horne's birth.

From there he starts to build his criminal empire. Years later he visits Diane, his secretary, tricking her into thinking he's the original Cooper. He rapes her as well, and drags her into the black lodge, trapping her there and releasing a Tulpa slash Artificial Human which he plants in the real world to keep tabs on the other FBI agents. He may have been involved in the murder of an FBI Asset, but that was left ambiguous.

From then to the present he built a criminal empire. He created another Tulpa in his image, Dougie Jones, because in the 25 years since his creation, the Lodge would attempt to pull him back in again. Mr. C forced mob boss Duncan Todd to work for him, having him attempt to assassinate Cooper when he reappeared, and ultimately having Todd kill his minions and then has Todd and his assistant killed.

When the 25 years end, Dougie is pulled into the Lodge and disintegrates into a golden ball, but Cooper manages to get out, hence why Mr. C tried to kill him. When Darya, his girlfriend, tries to betray him he beats and kills her. He's arrested and brought into prison, but manages to escape with Darya's brother on account of having blackmail on the Warden, whom he later has assassinated. Darya's brother, Ray, tries to kill him, but he survives because of Supernatural Homeless People (Twin Peaks is weird). He tracks Ray down to a gangster hideout, kills the leader and kneecaps Ray, interrogating him and killing him. He also forces Ray into the Black Lodge via a magic ring, presumably leaving him to be in pain for eternity trapped in limbo.

Mr. C visits Agent Philip Jeffries (formerly played by David Bowie), as he believes Jeffries sent Darya and Ray after him. He has become a human sized kettle and states that he did not send them after Mr. C. Kettle David Bowie also reveals that Mr. C's goal is Judy, a mysterious creature we see throughout the series and the presumed Greater-Scope Villain, but Mr. C himself doesn't seem to recognize the name.

He later encounters his errant son Richard, who tried to shoot him. Mr. C decks him and forces him to checkout a place he thinks he might find Judy. The place is a trap, presumably set by MIKE and the Black Lodge, which electrocutes Richard into nothingness. Mr. C emotionlessly says "goodbye my son" and departs, going to Twin Peaks.

He activates the Diane Tulpa and has her try to kill David Lynch and end the series early (actually kill Gordon, Lynch's character, and the other FBI agents). The order causes her to have a breakdown and Albert kills her when she draws the gun.

Returning to Twin Peaks, he again passes himself off as the real Cooper to visit the staff. There he nearly kills the Sheriff when the Sheriff realizes it's not the real Cooper, causing Lucy to shoot and kill him. The Doppleganger dead, the Supernatural Homeless People return and try to bring him back, and bring BOB out of his body in a mass of black evil energy. Cooper puts the magic ring on the Doppleganger's finger, which returns him to the Black Lodge for good (as long as there's no sequel).

Mitigating Factors

The Doppleganger is weird morality wise. He's a monster for sure, easily performing crimes on par with original series BOB, but then there's his nature. He is a creation of the Black Lodge, a den of evil/morally alien creatures, explicitly created as an evil version of Cooper. How much morality he has is up in the air, especially because creatures like him survive off of the suffering of humans (Gotta have that Creamed Corn). It's easy to see him as an utterly heinous monstrosity, but at the same time he might be Made of Evil. He never does anything remotely sympathetic, and I saw his goodbye to Richard as a sign of him being Faux Affably Evil rather than anything else.

2nd thing, possession. The Doppleganger is possessed by BOB for the entirety of the show. Now this one is tricky and I'm arguing it against being mitigating. BOB was Out of Focus for most of the Return, and that's because the actor, Frank Silva, had long since passed away. A number of actors passed before, during, and after The Return, but BOB couldn't be written out. When the Doppleganger first appeared it was a case of BOB possessing him, but when the Doppleganger is out and about (and when he starts committing crimes), BOB is dormant inside of him and the Doppleganger is the one in control.

Final Verdict

Of all the new villains I feel he could come the closest to counting because he meets the heinous standard. That said, the morality question still stands.

edited 18th Sep '17 12:50:43 AM by DrPsyche

Next up, Richard Horne

Who is he?

A dick. It's in his name.

More accurately he's the latest in the "young punk" character in Twin Peaks. Unlike Bobby, Mike, or James, Richard has no redeeming qualities. Lot's of people think he's Frank Booth Expy and I couldn't disagree, except he's more coherent than Frank.

He was born from the Doppleganger's rape of Audrey, and while his upbringing is largely unknown, Ben Horne states that he was never right. Richard is abusive, a drug user, a sexist asshole, and a criminal.

Actions

Richard is introduced with a girl hitting on him in the bar. He grabs her and intimidates/harasses her before she runs off. We later learn that Richard is a lackey of Red a new drug dealer in Twin Peaks. Richard, while high, attempts to transport drugs for him but makes an illegal turn on the road and runs over a child, killing him. Richard never slows down and is angry that the kid got in his way.

Knowing he has to skip town, he tracks down the local school teacher, the only witness, and savagely beats her, leaving her for dead. She survives but spends the remainder of the series in a coma. Then he drives to his grandmother's house, beats her, robs her and leaves.

He ends up in Renzo's gang, watching the Doppleganger kill Renzo and Ray. After that he confronts the Doppleganger and beaten up. That's when Mr. C uses him as a decoy for the Black Lodge trap which ultimately kills Richard (though if there is another season I can see him just having been sucked into the Black Lodge rather than killed).

Mitigating Factors

Richard is thoroughly unsympathetic. He's cruel, petty, and an all around asshole. That said, 2 beatings and one murder make him fall a bit short. He's up against BOB and Mr. C: both serial rapists and killers, and other criminals like Windom Earle (serial killer and occultist), Jean Renault (murderer and drug kingpin), Mr. Eckhardt (crime kingpin who kills at least 3 people in the series with a bomb), and the Hutchens (at least 3 onscreen kills).

Richard may have a mitigating factor in the instance of his birth. He was spawned from a denizen of the Black Lodge so it's possible his behavior stems from that. There is a weight that the reveal that Mr. C was his father, is given, an ominousness radiates from the scene we find that out, which indicates it should be significant.

That said, there is another character, Sonny Jim Jones (yeah it's a weird name), who may have a similar circumstance around his birth, his father being Dougie a Tulpa from the Lodge. Sonny Jim seems perfectly fine, and isn't a sociopathic killer. But it's unknown if Dougie, being just a lazy slob rather than a walking force of cruelty, really counted as a Black Lodge Denizen seeing as he was just created by one.

Final Thoughts

I'm iffy on Mr. C, but I give Richard a

edited 18th Sep '17 2:13:23 AM by DrPsyche

No to Richard. MASSIVE prick but fails the heinious standard.

I want to say "yes" to Evil Coop but I can't overlook his origin so I'll say "no" as well.

Judy is too mysterious to be an example IMO.