During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Alright, I removed the entry.
who is Schwick?
That, and whatever kills he's been doing isn't very explicit. I mean we see a few bones and hear what appears to be some kind of......creature but yeah Katz, Fusili and The Queen of the Black Puddle have far more explicit body counts.
I agree with this. The episode in question doesn't have nearly enough detail into the crimes being committed.
I don't think I ever saw that episode, but I know enough about Courage to hard ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Schwick.
There aren't any other candidates in Courage. I'm a little skeptical of Fusilli nowadays (one of my weaker proposals, to be honest) but there's nothing really disqualifying him.
The Unknown Unknown
Schwick doesn't count. Seen that episode plenty times, and everything about him is too vague.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
IIRC we never see what's behind the creepy door, either. For all we know Schwick just forces people to watch horrible soap operas for the rest of their lives. Given the type of humor this show has I think that's totally what it could be.
edited 25th Jul '16 4:14:19 PM by HamburgerTime
A total has-been.
Fusili counts due to his A Fate Worse Than Death body count just like Katz counts by virtue of being a Serial Killer. There aren't any other villains in Courage that really come close to hitting that heinousness level.
edited 25th Jul '16 4:20:21 PM by ANewMan
There's no Fate Worse than Death implication about anything Fusilli does; he turns them into lifeless puppets and they're essentially dead because of this. The reason he counts is because there's virtually nobody in the show excepting Katz himself and the Queen that match or exceed his body count. I'm not disagreeing that he counts, but I'm still saying I consider him one of my weakest proposals and he's not an extraordinary qualifier by any means.
I will give some late ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Belarios, Lo and Farringworth.
Its interesting that so far no one from any of the Star Trek movies counts so far, but I have another video game candidate from a game that is a prequel to Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, the main villain from Star Trek: Klingon Academy. In this game you play as the Klingons rather then the Federation and serve under General Chang, the Big Bad of star Trek 6.
Who is Melkor? What has he done?
Melkor (subtle name) son of G'Iogh, was a member of the house of G'Iogh, a powerful family in the Klingon Empire. Melkor's brother Kalnor led a coup against the Klingon Empire and was killed for his treachery by Chang. Melkor launched an even more ambitious scheme to take control of the Empire.
First he met in secret with other leaders of Klingon houses to gain their support, then when the current Klignon Chancellor died, Melkor declared himself Emperor and started a Civil War to achieve that end.
Gorkon the next in line for the Chancellor's role, opposed Melkor, but Chang disliking Gorkon's plans to achieve peace with the Federation, didn't side with anyone and started his own faction, which the player serves under. Chang's forces mainly attack Melkor's, with Chang knowing he is the bigger threat and knowing he can get support for his polices if he defeats Melkor.
Melkor takes over a Klingon star base, which Chang liberates, but Melkor has rigged the station to explode. Chang tries to save as many of the station crew as he can, but thousands of Klingons still die when the station explodes.
Chang's forces go on the offensive against Melkor and discover Melkor is secretly allied with the Romulans and is promising them several key Star Systems if they give him military support. One of these systems, the Tal'lhnor Gates is the Klingon Empire's chief source of energy. Chang engages Melkor's forces there, but discover more of Melkor's treachery, Melkor plans to use a doomsday weapon to destroy the system, rather then let it fall into Chang's hand. The soldier who is charged with this task is honor bound to follow this monstrous order, but has enough personal honor to warn Chang's ships to leave before he does it.
I think there is a good chance the system is inhabited, power stations and mines in the Star Trek universe generally have personnel on site, though you don't visit any mining sites while at the Tal'lhnor Gates. Even if the mines and power stations were automated some how, Melkor definitely killed several of his ships and tried to kill most of his opposition with this stunt. This act also crippled the Klingon Empire and led to the sorry state the Empire was facing in Star Trek 6, where they over mined their other major power source till it blew up, with the Klingons facing extinction if they couldn't get the Federation's help.
Anyway Melkor loses almost all support in the Klingon Empire after this stunt, but he is not finished yet, he challenges Chang to one on one duel to settle things (claiming he wants to avenge his brother) but it turns out to be a trap and Chang is ambushed by several Romulan ships. Melkor has convinced the Romulan Empire to support his power grab fully and he is now leading a Romulan fleet to attack the Klingon home world.
Melkor's forces destroy another Klingon outpost and attempt to frame the Federation for it, hoping Chang will divert his forces from defending the Klingon home world and go looking for non existent Federation aggressors instead. Anyway the player manages to convince Chang of this deception (eventually) and the combined Gorkon/Chang forces defeat Melkor's invasion and kill him.
Is he heinous by the standards of the story?
I think I have gone over the Star Trek heinous standard before, but I think his actions stand out, most Star Trek villains don't blow up solar systems and his murderous acts of treachery are pretty loathsome. He may top Vlict from the Star Trek: 25th Anniversary as the worst Klingon villain I have seen, but he does have resources Vlict didn't, like a doomsday weapon that can blow up solar systems.
Melkor has similar goals, personality and M.O to Duras from The Next Generation, but he has a far bigger body count then Duras and the Civil war he caused was far more devastating then the one the Duras family started 75 years later.
This game also features Chang, the Big Bad from Star Trek 6 who eventually assassinated Gorkon to prevent peace with the Federation (Chang is a hardliner who believes peace with the Federation will destroy the Empire) and from some of the simulations you play during the game, it seems like Chang has a long term desire to destroy the Federation (in the Academy missions you actually destroy Earth, but its just in a Holodeck simulation, so it has no bearing on the heinous standard).
However Chang dies long before he can do anything substantive to the Federation and I think Melkor is worse, Chang wishes to destroy the Federation because he is a Klingon patriot who will do anything in his power to protect the Empire, Melkor is a psychopath who murders countless members of his own race just for power. Not to mention bedsides running some frightening Holodeck simulations, Chang did nothing really villainous in this game and his actions in Star Trek 6 are not heinous enough to stand out.
Any Freudian Excuse or other sympathetic qualities?
Nope.
Melkor actively insults his dead brother while mocking Chang and only pretends to want to avenge his brother to lure Chang into a trap. He is a real Bad Boss, killing thousands of his own troops just to spite Chang.
Melkor's treachery and cowardice shows he has no sense of honor, so he is vile even by Klingon standards.
Melkor is just a power mad psychopath at the end of the day.
Final Verdict?
I think he counts.
edited 26th Jul '16 8:21:54 AM by Overlord
Lizzid people!
to Melkor (is that a reference, I wonder?).
It is a bit interesting that none of the movies have had a CM yet. V'Ger and those weird whale-talking aliens weren't really malevolent; Sybok was a Well-Intentioned Extremist; the Borg Queen had... agency issues, was it?; Soran, Shinzon, Nero, and both Khans all have a Freudian Excuse; Kruge, "God", Chang, and Ru'afo all fail the heinousness standard (although Ru'afo comes fairly close, in my opinion). I haven't seen the new film yet, so I don't know what Krall's deal is yet (he's not up for discussion for another 12 days anyway). I think that's everybody.
...I like lists.
Melkor
I'd recommend the new movie if you get a chance to see it. I think I liked it more than the first two.
edited 25th Jul '16 7:34:01 PM by Camberf
Wild Child
Melkor.
Unrelated note - I claimed Guardians Of The Galaxy Volume Two on the effort post list. Hopefully this is all right.
edited 25th Jul '16 7:39:25 PM by LargoQuagmire
RIP Toriyama
Fine with me. And sorry for your loss.
On the reserving effortposts note, I'mma go ahead and add, and reserve, the discussion for any villains from Imperium , If that's ok with everyone.
Oh, and 'Yes' to Melkor.
edited 25th Jul '16 8:01:31 PM by Ravok
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Melkor
I bet J.R.R. Tolkien will rise from the dead and sue the developer's asses.
@ 64616 De Carta,
I think this is still on topic, but I agree none of the Star Trek movie villains count, but I think I have some different thoughts on them.
I agree about Star Trek 1 and 4, I don't think those films have villains, those are obstacles or problems to overcome, rather then adversaries.
Ru'afo comes off as Unintentionally Sympathetic to me, just because the Ba'ku come off as selfish elitist jerks in that film. They don't seem to want to share the rejuvenating energies of the planet they are on (which isn't even their home planet) and kicked Ru'afo and his followers off the planet because they didn't want to live without technology, I can't blame Ru'afo and his followers for not wanting to live like the Amish just because everyone else on that planet does, he has just as valid claim to that planet as anyone else does and he spends the first half of the film being a Villainy-Free Villain. You can argue that Ru'afo crossed the Moral Event Horizon line when he tied to kill all the Ba'ku on the planet, but that is just 600 people, random Romulan commanders trying to blow up the Enterprise have bigger attempted body counts.
Kruge is just a standard TOS Klingon villain, people don't like him because he killed Kirk's son, but besides that it was mostly standard villainy.
The Borg Queen has Orange And Blue Morality, believing she is doing everyone a favor by assimilating them.
I actually think Chang has some redeeming qualities, despite being a General Ripper. Star Trek: Klingon Academy kinda expands on his character further, but he seems like a genuine Klingon patriot who believes everything he does is in the best interests of the Klingon Empire and thus the Klingon people.
Shinzon is such a badly written villain, during that film he seems to run the gambit from Anti-Villain to Complete Monster to Generic Doomsday Villain and back again, depending what scene he is in. He is so inconsistent, the only thing that stays consistent is his incompetence. Both of the last two TNG movies had really bad writing.
But those are just my expanded thoughts on the Star Trek movie villains, I think they are close to yours and I agree with everything else you said.
Again I think Star Trek is a franchise where monsters are more rare then say Star Wars, just because Star Trek is less about good vs. evil then Star Wars (most of the Star Trek empires are not as bad as the Galactic Empire) and there some big areas in the franchise that don't have monsters (the films, I don't think there are any monsters in Star Trek Deep Space Nine and we have not found any in Voyager) but I think enough monsters have appeared in this franchise that it seems somewhat rare, but still very possible for them to appear.
edited 25th Jul '16 10:00:23 PM by Overlord
You makes some good points, especially about Ru'afo and Chang (the patriotism angle honestly hadn't occurred to me). Shinzon is one of those villains with potential out the yin-yang (Tom Hardy would have been a star a full decade earlier if that movie had been good... but then he might not have played Eames, Max, or Bane, so it's a crapshoot), but has it frustratingly wasted. I should probably mention that, with the exception of Wrath of Khan and the new films, it's been quite a while since I watched any of the good Star Trek films, let alone the less-than-good ones.
I agree with you about the scarcity of CMs in Star Trek compared to Star Wars; they're two completely different animals (no matter what some anti-sci-fi philistines might say). You'd think a darker series like DS9 would have a monster or two, but the worst of the worst on that show still had at least one quality that disqualified them. Funny how these things turn out.
edited 25th Jul '16 9:25:36 PM by DeCarta
We discussed and voted down Schwick. He's primarily Played for Laughs.