Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard proposal thread! This is the thread where new Magnificent Bastard examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential mitigating features will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the MB subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite MB" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from other parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for MB equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, their goals and methodology, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some characters, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
How are they Magnificent?
This is the point where you highlight the character's brilliance. How to they convey their intelligence and charm to the audience? What makes them stand out among the crowd? What are their goals and how do they go about accomplishing them? This part welcomes a lot of creative thinking — not everyone has to be a Machiavellian Diabolical Mastermind to be worth considering here! This is also the time to showcase how the character can think on their feet if it's necessary.
How are they a Bastard? How are they not too bad?
What kinds of moral lines is this character willing to cross for the sake of their goal? Are they willing to let innocents die? Start wars? Commit crimes? The character has to show some kind of unscrupulousness in order to count as a "Bastard". Notably, this character does not necessarily have to be the villain, and an Anti-Hero can cross the line if they're immoral enough, but they have to be immoral somehow.
This is also the section where you then state your case for why they're not too bad. Perhaps their good intentions help mitigate their crimes. Perhaps others are shown to be much worse than them. Perhaps they're prone to Pet the Dog moments or are even fighting on behalf of loved ones. Whatever the case, there are certain lines that an MB can't cross, but as long as their villainy is reasonable for their goal, they can be considered.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:40:56 AM
Yes to Namor, Fester, Scar, and Lin
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Sure to Namor.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
So now that its been 24 hours since certain things, I'll get those certain things handled:
- Verdict: First Fester to probably get a
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
.
As for the verdict on Namor now that the time's come? Probably one of the EASIEST votes EVER!
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Namor, Fester, Scar, Lin
EDIT: Would folks be alright with me putting an EP I've had done for someone not part of the backlog?
Edited by WetFlannels on Jan 17th 2023 at 2:08:43 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Yes to Namor, Wednesday, Scar and Lin. That cover it?
I've got one now, from the Tales from the Crypt episode Dead Wait:
The episode concerns red-haired con artist Red sent to an island controlled by a military general named Duvall. Duvall possesses the black pearl, a large pearl of exceptional value. He also possesses a gorgeous wife named Kathrine, who seduces Red. But our MB is Duvall's employee Peligre, the Voodoo sorceress.
Who is Peligre?
A calm and confident woman with a sense of ruthless poise, Peligre is charming and guides Duvall with her divinations before instantly setting on Red to guide him as well, informing him that his red hair is a sign of spiritual favor, something blessed by her people. Slowly giving Red advice, she warns him not to trust Kathrine. Something Red doesn't listen to whatsoever.
With the island almost overrun by revolutionarie. Turns out Peligre is playing everyone against one another. The greedy Red murders Duvall for the pearl, and then learns he swallowed it to protect it from the revolutionary. Cutting Duvall open, he finds the pearl, only for Kathrine to try to murder him. Peligre, having prepared for this, murders her with a oodoo doll and gets Red to safety, leading him out. The conversation turns cryptic, as Peligre notes the pearl and money mean nothing to her. She does note she wishes she had red hair like Red, and then reveals they're near her village....
Just before she pulls out her machete behind Red and beheads him, throwing away the Pearl and taking his head with her for her own purposes.
Mitigating issues?
Zip, zilch, nada. Peligre plays everyone like a fiddle in the conflict and guides and protects Red. Why? She wants his head, literally, for his red hair. Now, Red sure is a thug, but this is still an ice cold move. Peligre has literally everything go the way she wants to an absolute T and ends the episode wholly victotious.
Conclusion?
Keep her
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Can't vote on Wednesday until 10:30. You mean Fester?
Okay so I was going to do this guy right before the thread closures. While the work wasn't exactly 'reserved' under Discussion Dates, it did air from around that time period.
From The Flash we have: Despero, the Arc Villain and one of the Big Bad Ensemble of Season 8's Armageddon arc.
Who is Despero and what has he done?
Despero (played by Tony Curran) is a Kalanorian, an alien with strength / toughness on par with Superman and a third eye that grants him psychic powers. He claimed that his backstory involved being a rebel leader on his homeworld, where they opposed and overthrew a tyrant. However, Despero was unable to go through with actually killing the despot, leading the tyrant to exile him to Earth in retaliation.
Having taken up residence on Earth, 10 years in the future, Despero witnessed the cataclysmic event known as "Armageddon", The End of the World as We Know It, with all signs pointing to The Flash being the one responsible. So Despero travelled back in time to the present in order to prevent this Bad Future, by killing the Flash.
Arriving in 2021, Despero tracks down the Flash at a large gathering. Despero announces his intention to kill the hero, while warning the crowd of bystanders to run. Despero fights against both Flash and Atom, with Despero not only No Selling everything they throw at him, but also confusing them into attacking an illusion of him. When asked why he’s doing this, Despero shows Flash a psychic vision of the Bad Future before he prepares to kill the hero. Barry is only saved by Atom sabotaging Despero’s teleportation device, sending him elsewhere.
But this is only a temporary solution, as Despero returns later that day undeterred. So Barry tries a more diplomatic approach, revealing his identity to Despero and allowing Despero to read his mind, where Despero senses no signs of malice.
So Despero gives Barry a chance to prove he is not the cause of Armageddon. In a time span of 7 days, Barry must prove to Despero that he won't turn bad, with Despero closely monitoring him. Several times, Barry is subjected to misfortunes in his life, to which Despero checks Barry's mental stability but always seeing it hadn't yet broken. However a few days in, there is news report of the Flash (actually Eobard Thawne in disguise) attacking the public, which Despero treats as a sign that the Flash had gone bad and resumes his murder attempts. Team Flash manage to fight Despero off, giving time for Barry to escape.
Barry seeks to find out the truth about Armageddon himself by running to the future to see what has happened. He discovers an Alternate Timeline created by his Arch-Enemy Eobard Thawne a.k.a. the Reverse-Flash, dubbed "Reverse-Flashpoint". This timeline is Thawne's ideal world, where he has stolen/ruined Barry in every way imaginable, including Thawne taking Barry's place as the Flash, marrying Barry's wife Iris, making Barry into the Reverse-Flash, and killing Barry as a child so he'd be erased from existence.
With time running out, Barry is forced to trigger Armageddon himself in order to undo Reverse-Flashpoint and escape back to the past. However by focusing on his love for Iris, Barry manages to reconnect with the Speed Force and avoids destroying Earth as collateral damage.
Back in the present, Despero psychically tortures all the members of Team Flash in order to interrogate them on Barry's location, with them dying one-by-one. Just as he is about to kill Cecile the final survivor, Barry resets the timeline and undoes the damage. Despero finally learns the truth that it was Eobard Thawne responsible for everything.
While Despero no longer targeted Barry, he still sensed that Thawne posed a danger to the timeline. Intending to kill Thawne himself, Despero warns Barry to stand down to no avail. Before Barry and Despero fight, Barry guesses that Despero that his sob-story was a lie and that Despero himself was the despot. Despero does not deny this but is still convinced his actions are necessary to save the Earth from destruction.
While Barry and Despero fight, Despero mind controls Mia Queen / Green Arrow II into attacking Team Flash, simultaneously having his mind on two fights. However Team Flash helps Mia to break free of Despero's control. With this plan foiled, Despero teleports Barry away and sets in motion his final plan: destroying the entirety of Central City to take Thawne along with it.
As Despero starts going nuclear, Barry manages to use new tech to siphon Despero's power away. A depowered Despero warns Barry he has no idea what he has done, before he disappears in a burst of flames to an Uncertain Doom. A whole season later, Despero was proven right where Thawne did end up becoming a threat again and very nearly destroyed the world.
How is Despero Magnificent?
Tony Curran plays Despero with a gruff intimidating but sophisticated visage, think Endgame Past!Thanos. So plenty of charm going. While stern and angry with the Flash, he still remains Affably Evil / Faux Affably Evil. He is depicted as a Fair-Play Villain who gives Barry a chance and does not stray from his promises.
During Despero's testing of Barry, he is shown to be manipulative with his psychic mindgames, as he makes Barry continuously question and doubt the trust in himself. He also displays phenomenal processing ability when he mind controls Mia Queen, where he effectively engages in two different fights in two different bodies.
Too much of a Bastard?
Despero is first and foremost a Well-Intentioned Extremist who is genuinely trying to save the world, but is ruthless in his methods. His worst move is of course attempting to destroy a city, though quite a few villains of his tier have attempted this like Grodd, Weather Wizard, Abra Kadbra. We can also directly compare him to Thawne who is much MUCH worse.
Other bad things he does includes psychic Mind Rape, but he does so for purely pragmatic reasons and not for the sake of sadism.
There's also his backstory of being the despot that oppressed his planet. But this occurs completely offscreen with no details given other than Barry's speculation. There's no telling just how bad Despero was there or if he's any worse than he is in the present.
Anything Mitigating?
My only concern is he technically got played by Thawne into believing Barry was the villain. Though I will give him some leeway in that Thawne has had years of planning in pulling off this surgical precision timeline meddling, while Despero only had at most a day or so to react to what looks like the apocalypse. He sprung into action and honed in on the obvious threat.
Final verdict?
I guess I'll vote after 24 hours?
Edited by Snowy66 on Apr 19th 2024 at 1:20:40 AM
Namor, Fester, Kingpin, Scar and Ling.
Edited by jjjj2 on Jan 17th 2023 at 9:24:18 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Sure, I meant Fester. Wednesday is going to count in 56 minutes just as much as she counts now, so save my vote until then
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Time for a reitligation I think after me and Lore had a brief discussion on the cleanup thread so please give it a quick read to get why I've done this.
What is the work?
Skyrim, shouty person, dragons (who are technically wyverns.) One of the main plotlines of Skyrim is the civil war between the empire and the Stormcloaks. The Stormcloaks want to reclaim Skyrim as it's own kingdom and break away from the empire while the empire wants to keep it united to prepare for the inevitable second war against the Thalmor (local elven Nazi brigade.) The head of the empire's forces in Skyrim is the character I'm going to propose-General Tullius.
Who is General Tulius?
General Tulius is the commander of the Empire's forces in Skyrim, appointed by the emperor himself. After being appointed for six months, Tulius managed to coordinate an ambush on Ulfric and a small group of Stormcloaks, taking them to Helgen to be executed and would've succeeded if it wasn't for Alduin appearing and razing the town. Tulius and Ulfric managed to both escape back to their respective cities to plan out how to take each other's forces out.
If the Dragonborn decides to join the Empire's side in the war, Tulius will ask that you prove your worth to the cause and has you do a task for his right hand woman, Legate Rikke. When you pledge your allegiance to the Empire, Tulius will have you do tasks with Rikke, upping your rank seeing your worth as more than a foot soldier. Because of Whiterun's neutrality and being placed in the centre of Skyrim, Tulius has the Dragonborn send a letter to Whiterun's jarl that he has intel that Ulfric intends on storming the hold.
After defending Whiterun from an onslaught of Stormcloaks, Tulius has The Dragonborn help Rikke take over the Stormcloak sides holds with taking out masses of Stormcloak soldiers to help the Empire close in on Ulfric at Windhelm. When you've helped the imperials capture all of the holds before Windhelm, Tulius leads a siege on Windhelm resulting with a fight against Ulfric and his right hand man Galmar. With Ulfric's demise, Tulius then returns to Solitude, not intending on leaving Skyrim for a while.
Is he magnificent?
Tulius is a master planner and tactician with dealing with the Stormcloaks. He also lacks any cowardice as he personally leads the siege on Windhelm. When Alduin attacks Helgen, Tulius' immediate reaction is to try and get the townspeople to safety and has his soldiers try to escape into the keep. While a bit gruff, he does show respect towards the Nords and their culture even if he doesn't quite understand them. He's also smart enough to join in a temporary truce with Ulfric to allow Whiterun to capture a dragon, knowing that the dragons have become a threat for both sides.
Even in the Stormcloak route, it's not like Tulius is sitting with his foot up his arse as he has soldiers impede you on the quest for The Jagged Crown and goes Defiant to the End with Face Death with Dignity on the siege of Solitude with Rikke. If there was no resistance from him, I wouldn't have reproposed him but I think him at least doing something that isn't a complete fumble is worth noting.
Is he a bastard?
The civil war in Skyrim is a grey area with both sides having justified reasons for being on the war so it's not just a one sided "good vs evil" bias. Tulius does have a lot of blood on his hands with the death of Stormcloak soldiers and has had multiple families torn because of it. When the war's over, Tulius says to the player that if they encounter any Stormcloaks to kill them although he does add that with luck they decide to give up and return home to their families.
Final Verdict?
Your call
Edited by WetFlannels on Jan 17th 2023 at 4:04:24 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Namor, Fester, Kingpin, Scar, and Ling.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Lies and Violence!
Namor, Fester, Fisk, the FA duo.
What’s the work?
Hurricane Gold is the fourth book in the Young Bond series, where a teenage James Bond takes on criminals around the world.
Who is El Huracan? What does he do?
An affable elderly gentleman and former slave who rules over the island of Lagrimas Negras, El Huracan turned the place into a luxury resort for wanted criminals. El Huracan lets his guests do whatever they please under one condition: They cannot reveal the true nature of the island to anyone. For this reason, El Huracan prevents any of his guests from leaving or even sending letters. Anyone who does the latter or tries to do the former is punished by being forced to run a Death Course called La Avenida de Muerte, with El Huracan promising that whoever beats it will be allowed to go free. In fact, El Huracan designed the course with no escape routes. He also forces his guests to become workers once they inevitably run out of money.
At the start of the story, El Huracan and twelve other men are sitting at a table, where El Huracan tells them that he knows that one of them is planning to escape. El Huracan tells the others that he has poisoned this man’s food, says that he’ll give him the antidote only if he confesses his guilt to the others, and starts describing the symptoms of someone affected by the poison. When a man named Robert King confesses, El Huracan reveals that he never poisoned anyone. It was all just a bluff to learn the identity of the person trying to escape, and he knew that the man’s anxiety would make him feel like he’s experiencing the symptoms. He then sends King to his death in La Avenida de Muerte.
When James and his friend Precious Stone arrive on the island, El Huracan lets them stay while trying to groom James into becoming his successor, having grown fond of the boy. When James and Precious deliberately get themselves sent to La Avenida de Muerte as part of their plan to escape, El Huracan, unwilling to send children to certain death, tries to find another option. When James rejects El Huracan’s offer to work for him as a jailer, El Huracan reluctantly lets them run the course, while the criminals get on how far the two will make it.
Through teamwork, James and Precious successfully bypass every obstacle and escape by detonating some explosives in a maintenance tunnel near the final challenge, which James planted prior to getting Precious himself sent to the course. El Huracan, despite admitting that he feels humiliated that two teenagers were able to best him, keeps his word and lets them go free, showing respect for them and being the only major villain in the series to wind up a Karma Houdini.
Any issues?
When James and Precious are faced with a particularly daunting challenge, El Huracan tells them that many men choose to commit suicide rather than confront it, and asks why James doesn’t do the same, which could be seen as a Kick the Dog moment. However, it’s revealed that El Huracan wanted James and Precious to get past this point, if only for the sake of the bet, and almost certainly said this solely to motivate James. If he was just mocking James, it would go against his established character.
Final verdict?
, personally.
Man in the Yellow Hat
Alright, to vote on the ones I talked about, Namor, Fester, Wednesday, the Billy hallucination, and Ghat.
Edited by Purgatoryisof2 on Jan 17th 2023 at 10:25:03 AM
He/Him
Wednesday still has another five minutes, but close enough. I'm gonna wait to vote on her when I vote for Dark Passenger Billy Loomis though. Haha.
Speaking of Wakanda Forever, Killmonger returns when he appears on the Ancestral Plain to Shuri, encouraging her to do what she has to to take out Namor. It doesn't help him count though because the same problems are still there and not addressed. Also, while What If?… probably establishes he has had a very high education before his CIA service, that also doesn't come into play here.
Any keepers in She-Hulk by any chance? I'm guessing that's a big no.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jan 17th 2023 at 7:25:09 AM
Lies and Violence!
The villains are incels and influencers, and the Abomination's worst acts is giving a motivational speech to the incels. Nada in She-Hulk.
Yeah. Didn't think so.
Based on the EP, to the Kingpin.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jan 17th 2023 at 7:31:52 AM
Yes to Namor, Uncle Fester, Video Game!Fisk, Wednesday and Satoshi's elf practice meme (Sorry not sorry for breaking the 24 hour rule to vote!)
Not the Eye
Yes to Wednesday, “Billy”, and Glorius guy.
giving motivational speech to incels, and nobody proposed him as CM! Man I know MCU has jacked standard but wow.
@43 Anybody else you miss on Pending besides the other two Andor candidates Kleya and Cinta?
Another Wednesday to get a and even still, probably not the last.
A surprising but nonetheless happy to the ghost—Dark Passenger haha—of Billy as well. Wouldn't be surprised if they at some point retcon it so that only Stu raped Maureen and Billy was disgusted by it.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jan 17th 2023 at 7:44:47 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to "Billy" and Ghat.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Showtime!
to Billy and Wednesday
Goku Black
Billy, Wednesday and Ghat.
Yes to Ghat and to ghost Billy as well
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
to Namor. Excellent villain. And yes to the Fullmetal alchemist duo.
The First man