Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard proposal thread! This is the thread where new Magnificent Bastard examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential mitigating features will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the MB subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite MB" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from other parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for MB equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, their goals and methodology, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some characters, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
How are they Magnificent?
This is the point where you highlight the character's brilliance. How to they convey their intelligence and charm to the audience? What makes them stand out among the crowd? What are their goals and how do they go about accomplishing them? This part welcomes a lot of creative thinking — not everyone has to be a Machiavellian Diabolical Mastermind to be worth considering here! This is also the time to showcase how the character can think on their feet if it's necessary.
How are they a Bastard? How are they not too bad?
What kinds of moral lines is this character willing to cross for the sake of their goal? Are they willing to let innocents die? Start wars? Commit crimes? The character has to show some kind of unscrupulousness in order to count as a "Bastard". Notably, this character does not necessarily have to be the villain, and an Anti-Hero can cross the line if they're immoral enough, but they have to be immoral somehow.
This is also the section where you then state your case for why they're not too bad. Perhaps their good intentions help mitigate their crimes. Perhaps others are shown to be much worse than them. Perhaps they're prone to Pet the Dog moments or are even fighting on behalf of loved ones. Whatever the case, there are certain lines that an MB can't cross, but as long as their villainy is reasonable for their goal, they can be considered.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:40:56 AM
Who up whereing they else?
Writeup for James Dean
- THE MONUMENT MYTHOS: President Dean is the 37th president of the United States, and despite not having particularly long ads or speeches, easily gains the trust of the American people, beating Nixon in a Landslide Election and then manages to convince him to race cars at the end of his inauguration, right after a quick bongo session. Those who strongly oppose him are sent to Special Trees to be swapped with their Alternate Universe counterparts or killed by a Psycho for Hire. Dean is able to manipulate his enemies and convince his friends as long as it benefits his goal, but isn’t anywhere near being against lighthearted fun or doing good, like when he attempted to heal an entire nation that was deformed after an attack by said strong opposition.
Edited by StarManatee on Jun 22nd 2023 at 8:35:28 PM
He/Him | Elsewhere (2017)
Alrighty with a new page let me now EP my final candidate from Assassin's Creed Rogue Jack Weeks.
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
Jack Weeks is a member of the Templar Order who use to been a slave in Virginia before escape. Being taught by his parents to be independent and use any opportunity to improve his conditions, Weeks became a pickpocket and their at ten years olds, successfully stealing from his local markets.
Weeks would grab the attention of Christopher Gist when the latter caught Weeks trying to pickpocket to which impressed Gist so much, he took Weeks in as his errand boy bringing in on his travels and teaching Weeks about trading and imitating people of various social status and origins before introducing him to George Monro which Monro would officially indicate Weeks into the Templar Order.
He would rise up the ranks within the Colonial Templar Order Weeks becoming The Smart Guy, eventually meeting up with Lawrence Washington (George Washington’s brother) where Weeks would learn about the Precursor Box and Manuscript from Lawrence before the latter was assassinated by Shay Cormac, where Weeks was able to escape from the Assassin, though Weeks would personally meet Shay after Shay defected from the Assassin Brotherhood and congratulate Shay on destroying the poison manufacturing facility operated by the Assassin-aligned gangs.
Weeks would learn that Monro and his men had surrendered at Fort William Henry where he would send Shay to rescue them upon learning Kesegowaase’s plan to ambush them with Weeks helping Shay fend off Kesegowaase forces, with Week throwing a powder keg for Shay to at in front of Kesegowaase before they make their escape.
Weeks would also informed Shay and Monro of Kesegowaase’s plan to attack Albany where the three prepare for the attack and freeing the village, Oneida from French forces, with Shay being able to kill Kesegowaase. However Monro would get mortally wounded from Liam O’Brien where Shay would take Monro’s place within the Templar Order to which Weeks would welcome Shay in.
The Templar would then begin their plans to dismantle the Assassin Brotherhood, with Weeks formulating his own plan to dismantle Hope Jensen’s influence in New York. Weeks plan is to have him and Shay disguise themselves as Hope’s subordinates after having Shay kill these men to take their clothes, where the two would commit a large-scale robbery, stealing British soldiers’ salaries while freeing prisoned gang members and raising the assassin flag to frame the Assassins for the heist.
Weeks plan work perfectly where the British Authorities take extreme measures to eradicate Hope’s gangs and shut down her operations, allowing Shay to kill Hope Jensen and learn of her allies expedition to the Arctic Temple where the Templars would go to stop their plans, before Weeks and Gist work together to make sure that every trace of the Assassins are gone in the Colonies.
Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?
As The Smart Guy of the Templar Order’s Colonial Rite and an expert thief and pickpocket, Weeks is exceptionally brilliant and charismatic managing to steal from countless people before being recruited into the Templar Order where he manages to rise the ranks to their Inner Circle and given that Weeks is a black man living in the Colonial era (they don’t get by much) this is an impressive feet showing how much the Templars value his genius.
Hell his planning is shown when he orchestrates a large-scale robbery by disguising himself and Shay as gang member before robbing the British Army, framing the Assassins for the Heists which dismantles Hope’s operations as the British hunts down her gang members and allow Shay the opportunity to kill Hope, all according to Weeks plan with Weeks never once loosing his calm demeanor throughout the game.
What’s The Competition Like?
Again with Haytham, Monro, and Gist in the picture, I think Weeks can stand out since he’s an African-American yet is a high-ranking member of an Ancient Conspiracy (it’s hard for someone of color to have a high status) is an expert pickpocket thief since childhood and managed to outwit Hope Jensen a Master Assassin who was in control hold of the New York Underworld until she lost her criminal empire because of Weeks heists, so yeah I think he’s good here.
Is He a Bastard? Is He Too Much of a Bastard?
Well Weeks was a pickpocket thief stealing from countless people before joining an organization detected to controlling all of humanity, orchestrates a large-scale heist stealing massive fortunes from innocent soldiers while framing the Assassins who are Hero Antagonists here (albeit incredibly misguided) for the heist and plays a part in purging the Assassin Brotherhood from the colonies, making sure that any remaining Assassin is eliminate so yeah I’d say Weeks is enough of a bastard to be considered.
That said Weeks is nowhere near as bad compared to other villains within the franchise, is sadistic at all, is comfortable working with his former enemy and allow him to join the Templar Order despite that latter having killed a few of his allies and does believe that by controlling humanity, the Templars can bring in an age of peace and prosperity, so not too much of a bastard.
Final Verdict?
I’ll leave that decision for you guys to decide.
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
weeks
@emerald : Go ahead man.
Edited by miraculous on Jun 22nd 2023 at 2:23:21 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Not the Eye
to Weeks
I was told this would be a tough sell, but I'm genuinely curious, so here's my attempt at the anime version of Cyrus from Pokemon.
What's the work?
Pokémon the Series: Diamond and Pearl is the anime's adaptation of the games set in the Sinnoh region. It shows Ash's continued journey as he tries to become a Pokemon master, but must contend with numerous villains, such as the mysterious Team Galactic and their leader, Cyrus.
Who is he?
Cyrus is a successful businessman in Sinnoh who has built many libraries there. He is said to have held pacifist views for most of his life and feels that human emotion is the cause of war, and desires to destroy the existing world and create a new one free of emotion. To do this, he founds Team Galactic, meticulously researching Sinnoh's creation until he's ready to put his plans in motion. Their initial operations are successful, stealing the Spear Key and meteorites from Veilstone City despite Ash's interference.
After having the Adamant Orb stolen during transport, Cyrus arranges a complex operation to steal the Lustrous Orb from a museum. He stations Saturn and his men nearby and starts a countdown on his watch, then introduces himself to Ash and his friends in his businessman persona, claiming he's there to protect the Lustrous Orb. He learns that they have seen the Lake Trio, which intrigues him. This gives him an idea and he asks to be taken to the Lustrous Orb, which is under heavy guard, saying that Ash and the others might have a special reaction to it. This gives them access to the chamber where the Orb is. Cyrus tells Ash about Sinnoh's history and talks about how beautiful the world must have looked when there was no war. This interests Ash, and Cyrus advises him to consider the difference between Pokemon battles and real war.
At a pre-appointed time, Cyrus's subordinates attack the ruins behind the museum as a diversion, and knock out the building's security. Cyrus has timed this perfectly, and the group tries to escort the Orb to safety, but in the lobby they run into Saturn and his men, and Cyrus exchanges a look with them showing this is just as they planned. However, Team Rocket then steal the Orb, and Cyrus subtly tells Saturn to let them go. Mars is later able to track them down, steal the Orb back, and escape, while Cyrus continues to pose as an ally to Ash and his friends.
Ash is feeling down and thinks the Orb's theft was his fault, but Cyrus tells him he did a great job protecting it, and he will remember him for this. He then leaves and returns to Team Galactic headquarters, where he informs his subordinates that the Lake Trio have been sighted, and puts Jupiter in charge of capturing them.
He then sends Mars to Iron Island, where she uses a machine to scan Mt. Coronet to try to find Spear Pillar. However, the energy beam has an adverse effect on the island's Pokemon, and they start to rampage. This draws the attention of Ash and his friends, and they destroy the machine. Cyrus is content that 60% of the mountain has been scanned and they've narrowed down its location, and orders Mars to withdraw and blow up the island to take out Ash and his friends. However, Ash's friend Riley uses his Lucario to contain the explosion and saves them. Mars apologizes for her failure, but Cyrus tells her it's a minor setback and they'll move on from it.
Cyrus later locates Spear Pillar with the help of Saturn and Charon, and he's also able to one-up the police agent Looker, having Charon leave behind a fragment of the Red Chain. When Looker examines this, it causes a reaction that wipes out all police data on Team Galactic, forcing him to start from scratch. Cyrus then contacts Hunter J and sends her after the Lake Trio. They are captured, but Hunter J is killed in the process. The Lake Trio then summon Ash and his friends to Team Galactic HQ, where Cyrus reveals his identity and explains his motives. His subordinates want to finish off Ash and his friends, but Cyrus stops them, stating that they have learned nothing he tried to teach them. He explains his motives to Ash, advising him to calm his anger, but Ash is determined to stop him, so Cyrus has them overpowered and captures them to use as leverage on the Lake trio.
They go to Spear Pillar and Cyrus uses the Lake Trio to summon Dialga and Palkia, but Ash and Cynthia arrive and are able to free the trio before the ritual is complete. Cynthia states that Cyrus can no longer summon them, only for Cyrus to answer "I wonder about that..." before using the Red Chain directly on Dialga and Palkia, ordering them to create a new universe. The new world starts to be born, but Cyrus states that he has no intent of bringing his subordinates with him, as he believes they have no comprehension of his ideals. After a battle, Ash and Cynthia are able to neutralize the Red Chain, and the portal starts to shrink. However Cyrus won't give up on his ideal world and jumps through the closing portal despite Ash's warnings. Though he appears to have died, it's later revealed that his new world still exists and he may or may not still be alive inside it.
Is he magnificent?
He's quite skilled at strategic planning and outwitting his opponents, and is able to adapt to unforeseen elements and incorporate them into his plans, with his debut appearance showcasing his skills as he steals the Lustrous Orb under the heroes' noses while remaining above suspicion. He also has a good deal of charisma as he's able to manipulate his followers into furthering his goals and likes having philosophical chats with Ash about his world view. While he's willing to kill Ash and his friends if they interfere, he still gives them a chance to stand down in the finale and seems disgusted that his subordinates seem to love fighting for its own sake. He has some hammy moments when he's excited about his plans, but it's generally entertaining and he even admits that he doesn't want to get emotional and just can't help himself, and he averts a Villainous Breakdown at the end as he simply jumps through the collapsing portal, willing to die in order to get to his new world, and with his fate being retconned into Uncertain Doom he may have actually gotten what he wanted.
While his goal of ruling over his new world as a god is selfish, his motives are still rooted in his hatred of war as in the games, as shown when he says (going by the original Japanese): "This is the result of you (the Lake Trio) giving hearts to humans. If you let emotions take their course, fighting will ensue. Humanity won't be able to progress like this." He's admittedly hypocritical, but he still seems to think in his own mind that what he's doing will benefit humanity and help it evolve.
I also noticed that the original Japanese gives him some brief moments of respect toward Ash, at one point telling him he's sorry for having deceived him about his true allegiance, a line which the English dub omits completely.
Too much of a bastard?
He's got a major stumbling block as he attempts omnicide, but for the most part his episodes emphasize his charismatic facade and skill at pulling off his plans, and he's fairly pragmatic in his pursuit of his goal and is rarely sadistic for its own sake. While some of his operations cause harm to Pokemon, such as on Iron Island, these are unintended side effects of what he's doing and he doesn't take joy in it, he's just indifferent. There's one moment where he shows a Psychotic Smirk when ordering Iron Island destroyed, but it doesn't last long.
Also his god complex and disregard for his subordinates is fairly in-line with his game counterpart, as he states in the game that he can't rewrite the existing world, but will create a new world where he will rule as a deity, and the Platinum game has him giving an inspiring speech to his followers about sharing power, before he admits to the player: "A big lie, of course. It's true, insofar as my intention is to create a new world. But that world isn't for the likes of Team Galactic. I seek an entirely new world solely for myself. If not, it could never be the complete and perfect world. You've seen my minions of Team Galactic. You yourself must know that they are uniformly useless and incomplete."
Verdict?
I'll abstain for now until I hear other opinions.
Edited by Javertshark13 on Jun 22nd 2023 at 6:27:27 AM
Nope. He's a bastard but sounds more like an asshole with the smirking, attempted omnicide and smug god complex. IIRC mir said his personality leaves something to be desired on top of that.
RIP Toriyama
Sure to Weeks. I'd hear out McCall!
Likewise not feeling Cyrus
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
I hate spoilers
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Cyrus. I read his folder, and not only is he nastier than his original counterpart, but his fate seems undignified. He enters a collapsing dimension that closes afterwards, and save for a late-series mention, he’s never heard from again.
Also yes to the AC trio and Lawless (Good work!) Sorry for missing those guys!
Ultimate Moral Compass
Week
Cyrus
To Cyrus. Good try but the guy lacks his game counterpart’s charm, well- intentions, and sympathetic backstory that made the guy pass through
Edited by G-Editor on Jun 22nd 2023 at 4:26:26 AM
Lies and Violence!
Weeks, no to Cyrus.
And since no one had any complaints, and the chapter got posted early: Pale Lights, the second work by the author of A Practical Guide to Evil, just finished its first arc. There's no one ready now, but just as a way to keep track of my own thoughts, there are four definite potentials:
- Tristan Abrascal, one of the two main protagonists, a street rat out for revenge against the five who murdered his father. I'm loving him so far; he's a scrappy schemer and manipulator who backstabs everyone in his way, knowing full well there are no lines he won't cross to get revenge and survive another day. At least, if it weren't for the fact that he's real bad at avoiding that tiny little thing called empathy, as he ends the arc saddled with an entourage of friends he begrudgingly finds himself putting in extra work to see survive.
- The other protagonist, Angharad, is a clever fighter and can Exact Words her way through oaths like nobody's business... but she's adorably naive about how much the world sucks outside of her homeland where honor and truth govern everything; has no social grace whatsoever, remaining completely blind to how people are manipulating her; and has been tricked into a pact to free a malevolent god. She could get more vicious with time as she works her way out of these manipulations, but... we'll see. They have great interactions, either way.
The noblewoman squinted at him.
"Tristan," she said, "are you attempting to use me as some sort of street tough?"
That was absolutely what he was attempting to do, yes. Outright lying to the woman whose entire way of life was bound to the concept of honor seemed a mistake, so he decided on a different angle.
"Be a pal," Tristan tried. "Do it for justice."
- Tupoc Xical, a sociopath who quickly becomes Tristan and Angharad's Arch-Enemy. He has a past raiding entire villages for ritual sacrifice, and tries to betray over a dozen people to cultists. He's also hilarious and absurdly competent, reacting to every setback with a hop, skip and a smile, and has hints of a genuinely well-intentioned goal. The ritual sacrifice thing might be a bit too bad if he does end up viable, but like with the Dead King back in the Guide, my expectation is that the heinous standard is going to get so much worse that it makes his crimes, while undeniably horrible, not absurdly worse than the norm, with his charisma next to Smug Snake antagonists making him stand out further.
- Song Ren, who looks to be Angharad's love interest, is a tactful sniper and Hypercompetent Sidekick working to prepare Angharad for work with the setting's resident god-killers. She's also heavily implied to have murdered Angharad's earlier love interest, Isabel Ruesta, out of... an understandable but unconfirmed concern she was using mind control on her.
- Tristan's Abuela, who probably maybe definitely isn't actually his real grandmother, a literal shapeshifting monster in the guise of an old woman who has trained him for years to become one of the aforementioned god-killers. Apparently she's tried projects like this before, and her previous subjects were regarded as utter monsters. What exactly the "project" entails is unknown, but it definitely isn't good, and what little we know of her from Tristan's narration and her brief appearance in the latest chapter establishes her as... pragmatic and absolutely delighted to fuck with people in the creepiest way imaginable, to put it lightly.
They're potentials, but nothing finished yet. None of the (many, many) characters who died in this arc displayed enough combination of ruthless and cunning to stack up to these guys.
What I do have ready is the Arc Villain for CM! Will get to that in a bit.
Who up whereing they else?
Speaking of candidates, James Dean is not the only Monument Mythos candidate. They don’t keep as strongly, but I’m pretty sure the Queen of the Lunarians could count and the Air Force One Angel might but I’m not sure since I’m not caught up on their* part of the lore.
* AFOA is several people melded into one organism
Edited by StarManatee on Jun 22nd 2023 at 7:21:33 PM
He/Him | Elsewhere (2017)
to Monroe, Gist and Weeks.
I noticed the last couple of write-ups I did that were approved (Icasaracht and Cat R. Waul) weren't added to their pages. Is the process for adding drafts to the sandbox and them getting moved to the mainspace different now?
Weeks.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
You add them to the YMMV pages now. The only thing the thread does now is add them to Magnificent Bastard subpages.
Edited by jjjj2 on Jun 23rd 2023 at 4:48:25 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Ah, okay, doh! Thanks for letting me know, I'll go add them now then :D
I'm fine with Weeks.
Now, one that I'm interested in discussing...
What's the work?
We the tropers fondly know Star Wars: The Clone Wars as a source of solid MB candidates— whether it's Separatist minions, bounty hunters, or pirates, it tends to have a great number of morally complex characters. And... that's what I'm looking at now, a really interesting case— I'm not positive he'll count, but let's start.
Who is Slick?
A clone sergeant known for being A Father to His Men, Slick is featured in the the episode "The Hidden Enemy" in Season One. The episode's plot centers around a traitor who has repeatedly foiled Republic operations by giving away key information to the Separatist forces on the planet Christophsis.
And, of course, Slick is that traitor. First feeding information to Asajj Ventress via the command room of a Republic tower and denying a Republic advance, even allowing droids to ambush the Jedi commanders, Slick is only even suspected when Captain Rex and Commander Cody discover information linking to his barracks. Taking their arrival in stride and feigning shock at the notion that one of his men could be a mole, Slick initially seems defensive of his men— but when he sees an opportunity to frame the clone Chopper thanks to his already having broken the rules, he immediately casts suspicion onto the clone— but, not breaking the caring facade, he reassuringly tells Chopper that he should relax and wait until the Jedi return to command before he tries anything... when Rex and Cody catch that he shouldn't even know the Jedi are gone?
"I really wish you hadn't noticed that".
Within seconds, Slick is dashing out— he detonates the clones' supply depot, striking massive damage (including wiping out all of their vehicles) and covering his escape. Hiding in the ventilation shaft, Slick is only drawn out when Cody leaves his rifle on the holo-table and tells Rex to leave— however, when he arrives to take aim at Cody, Slick finds that the gun is empty and Rex is right behind him— and his isn't. As he raises his hands, they explain that they know he's much too cautious to have gone straight for the doors; instead, he would've gone for the command center to seize control of the doors and seize an escape route first. Slick once again keeps his cool, admitting that it's obvious in hindsight how they caught him: It's what they would've done. As they berate him for betraying them, criticizing him for turning against his brothers for money, Slick admits he was paid quite well... and then rips the gun from Rex's hand as he begins a furious Motive Rant as he beats them both down:
- I'm not the traitor— You are! All of you just blindly following orders, for what? At least I got something out of this suffering! (...) Yes, she offered me money, but she offered me something more important: Freedom!
After giving them a brutal fight, including dislocating Rex's leg(!) Slick is brought down by the pair. As they bring him to Anakin and Obi-Wan, who demand to know how he could do this, Slick concludes on another scathing speech:
- Only a Jedi could ask that. It's the Jedi who keep my brothers enslaved. We do your bidding. We serve at your whim! I just wanted something more. (...) I love my brothers. You're too blind to see it, but I was striking a blow for all clones.
Is he magnificent?
Okay, so for a one-off... yeah, Slick is damn good. He managed to slow and foil Republic operations, had a backup plan in place, kept up the ruse and is pretty much permanently dignified, even when he slips up, and— oh, yeah, he wins. His main goal was to destroy the Republic supply depot, trashing their vehicles and armaments and softening them up for an oncoming assault— an assault that they ultimately survive (The Republic wins the Battle of Christophsis, after all) but Slick did his part and did it damn well. He's even playing a game of Xanatos Speed Chess when they come for him, defending his men until he gets an excuse to cast suspicion on Chopper, even then keeping up the reassuring facade before— upon getting caught— detonating the depot and even taking on a brutal two-on-one fight which he nearly wins before finally being brought down by Cody and Rex.
Buuuuut let's talk those two screw-ups, shall we? The first is pretty forgivable, I think: He references information he shouldn't know. Again, he responds to it with absolute calm and even still manages to destroy the depot and nearly get away; the moment his card's punched, he's making his way out. The second, however, is pretty glaring. Rex and Cody have his number the moment they enter the room, and Cody uses the classic "unloaded gun" trick to get him exactly where they want him. Despite this, he catches them off-guard, takes Rex's gun and gives them absolute hell.
So, he's in an interesting place: A couple screwups that are pretty bad, the second of which he only "recovers" from by giving his enemies a hell of a fight after being caught, but he actually succeeds in the larger part of his plan, kicks some ass, and delivers a cutting "The Reason You Suck" Speech both during and after his capture after nearly escaping, and, again, he keeps calm pretty much the entire time and is even willing to eloquently and scathingly lecture the Jedi after he's been caught.
Is he bad?
This is the other major component... Slick is a very gray character when it comes to motives. Cody and Rex strongly feel that what he did is unforgivable, and that for all he claims to love his fellow clones they rightfully point out that he kills an awful lot of them through helping the Separatists. Despite this... Slick still claims, even after he has no other reason to, that he dearly loves his brothers and that he wanted to help them gain freedom from the Jedi. Obviously, he's gotten plenty of clones killed, is a mole, etcetera and Rex even seems to believe he only did it for the money, but...
...the episode deliberately leaves him on a note of ambiguity: The idea that he genuinely loved his clone brothers is put forth and is very clearly left up in the air for the audience to draw their own conclusions on. What he's throwing out is a particularly vicious Villain Has a Point example, and nobody can actually refute his arguments about the clones being slaves forced to war— hell, Clone Wars itself will go on to have multiple arcs that essentially prove him right. It's also pretty hard not to sympathize with his desire to be free, which is definitely genuine.
Again, it's pretty hard to conclude whether he's just a selfish hypocrite who'd kill his own brothers, or someone who genuinely feels that killing some clones is Necessarily Evil to save the others— or even both, to some degree.
Conclusion?
I'm actually leaving this neutral— I think he's a fairly interesting one-off and he's damn effective in a lot of ways, and I'm curious to see what others think with everything laid out.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Jun 23rd 2023 at 3:12:33 AM
RIP Toriyama
I'm comfortable with leaning Yea on Slick, for a single rogue clone trooper he's a great one-shot who does a lot.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Goku Black
slick
Another for Dee Bradley Baker?
Edited by miraculous on Jun 23rd 2023 at 3:19:39 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Not the Eye
to Slick
to Slick
Hmmm... succeeds and handles his mission with aplomb. Albeit the only problem I'm potentially seeing is how loathsome he's supposed to be... MBs are by definition supposed to be bastards... I think there's enough grayness and dignity with the character that I'm comfortable giving a .
Assuming it dosen’t change anything about any potentials you currently have, I say go for it.