Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
Mr.
If anyone’s still voting on this ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Flect. Hypocrisy and genocidal ambitions aside, his backstory is genuinely horrible, and it sounds like he was left utterly broken by what he went through.
Edited by GamerBoy18 on Oct 13th 2023 at 1:45:59 AM
Caesar
Have to say No to Cecilia, she seems like a dreadful piece of shit but not especially horrid in the world of SAW.
Will have a surprise JRPG villain to discuss shortly but in the meantime, write-up:
- Rambo: First Blood Part II novelization, by David Morrell: Sergeant Tay is the exceptionally cruel commander of the Vietnamese POW camp that has haunted Rambo for years. Tay subjects hundreds of prisoners to heinous torture for years, enjoying himself by starving them; flaying them; and tying them in excruciating positions in the middle of terrible weather. Tay's favorite torment is the "slime pit", a deep hole full of worms, leeches and other painful insects that he lowers prisoners all the way into so they are bitten and suffocated by the insects, then pulled out on the cusp of death. The one responsible for Rambo's 6 months of horrible abuse and the many scars he bears, Tay has filled an entire patch of land with the bones of thr hundreds of victims who died under his abuse, and when Rambo tries to save multiple POWs from him, Tay tries to torture Rambo to death once again.
Edited by Ravok on Oct 13th 2023 at 1:51:17 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Not the Eye
Decided to drop writeup little early. Goes under general folder as usual.
- Eclipse (Star Wars): Emperor Palpatine is the sadistic ruler of the Galactic Empire who wants to make Luke and Leia his and Vader’s heirs so his influence on the galaxy will continue even after his death, while using them to hunt down rebels. He has countless children kidnapped and brainwashed into his Inquisitors, uncaring about the many who die during the training on missions. When Luke hesitates to execute a Rebel spy, Palpatine has him tortured with Force Lightning, punishment which he is ready to give to all his subordinates for the smallest of reasons. He plans to create the Death Star and threaten with destruction to any planet which shows signs of disobedience, causing the disgusted Skywalker twins to defect to the Rebellion. He has Luke captured and tortured for weeks in an attempt to break him, even implanting memories of his father torturing him in his head. When the Rebellion frees Galen Eros and steals the Death Star plans, Palpatine orders its crew to destroy Naboo to spite the Rebellion’s leader, Padme Amidala, by destroying both her and his own homeworld. Eventually Palpatine plots to lure an entire Rebel fleet into a trap on the Coruscant with the intention of destroying them all and either breaking Luke and Leia back into his servants or killing them.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Ah Saw, the irredeemable ones fail the heinous standard and the two worst (Ivan and Hoffman) have a single redeeming quality to keep them off this trope.
Personally for the order, I think Marsh first then Rahmat. Big Bad first, The Heavy second.
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
No to Cecilia.
A while back I asked about Gmork from The Neverending Story and the consensus was that he failed the heinous standard to the Nothing, but I'm still not sure on that because the Nothing is portrayed as a mindless force of nature while Gmork is willingly trying to enforce omnicide (as killing Atreyu would result in Fantasia's destruction since only he can save it) and would also effectively doom the human world by destroying their imagination. This was also brought up on another wiki recently and he was voted up there for that reason. From what we see in the film and from the filmmakers' comments, the Nothing is not really sentient so I don't think he fails to it, as he's the only one who's willingly evil.
There's also a behind-the-scenes documentary that further states the Nothing is simply a manifestation of nonexistence, and the filmmakers said that the raging storm we see in the film was not even meant to be the Nothing itself but rather a visual representation for how the world is falling apart. I know we already discussed him and have different standards here but it made me wonder if this could affect his status.
Edited by Javertshark13 on Oct 13th 2023 at 6:33:27 AM
You do realize we don’t care what other wikis say right?
Caesar
Ok, time for this!
What's the work?
Chrono Trigger is one of the best JRPGs of all time, created by Square Enix with help from Akira Toriyama. It follows young Crono, a lad transported across time with his friends and stumbling upon a Bad Future where humanity has been wiped out. Resolving to prevent such a future, Crono and a bevy of allies from different time periods unite via time travel and begin taking the battle to villains throughout history, all on the pathway to meet...Lavos.
We've always settled on Lavos, lacking any dialogue, to be too much of an Eldritch Abomination and/or GDV to qualify for this...but with a refresh of the sequel, Mind Screw-galore game Chrono Cross, those concerns are no longer present. So let's talk it!
Who is Lavos? What has it done?
- An ancient, evil being from the outer reaches of space, Lavos serves as the Big Bad of Chrono Trigger and the Greater-Scope Villain of Cross. 65 million years ago, Lavos fell from space and landed on Earth, its very arrival decimating the lands and wiping out the dinosaurs. Lavos burrowed into the Earth like a parasite, beginning to feed off the life essence of everything that exists, harvesting DNA to advance itself. Through its splintered-off essence that would come to be known as the Frozen Flame—what basically serves as Lavos's One Ring—Lavos began communicating with humankind, granting them magic and evolving them, all to one day serve its purposes.
- As humanity was uplifted from mere monkeys and cavemen to civilizations and magic-users through Lavos's influence, Lavos's power was tapped into by the kingdom of Zeal through creation of the Mammon Machine to contact it—only for Lavos's influence to reach out and take the once-benevolent Queen Zeal to be its Psycho Supporter, driving her mad with power and making her become a fanatical adherent to Lavos. The Queen became a tyrant in service to Lavos, trying to fully awaken it from its half-slumber deep in the Earth, and Lavos eventually exerted enough of its power to wipe out the entire kingdom of Zeal, leaving only the Queen alive to continue serving as its immortal herald.
- In the original timeline, Lavos indeed rose up fully in the year 1999, ushering in "the Day of Lavos" as it broke through the Earth's crust and rained down firey magic upon the planet, wiping out most of humankind in one, fell swoop. Lavos then birthed multiple spawn, using them to feed on the remaining life force of Earth with plans to then send them across the universe to repeat the cycle on other planets.
- Now, Crono and co. use time travel and begin tampering with the eventual rise of Lavos and Zeal's villainy, and though Lavos straight up murders Crono in one encounter, our heroes manage to revive Crono, take down Zeal and confront Lavos. Lavos reveals just how much of a hand in humankind's development it has had as it weaponizes the attacks and forms of previous foes the heroes have faced. When they confront its final form, the heroes witness its evolved form, taken from centuries of harvesting humanity and other lifeforms' DNA to make itself a superior being. Luckily, the heroes manage to destroy Lavos seemingly for good, saving humanity...
- ....or so it seems. In a bonus mission of Trigger, we see remnants of Lavos has targeted the despairing daughter of Queen Zeal, Schala, merging with her to become a "devourer". Lavos's hatred and evil corrupts Schala's despair and makes her a Misanthrope Supreme, Lavos's essence overpowering Schala's and using the fusion to begin a new plot.
- We get further detail and resolution in Cross. Using their fusion, Lavos had a hand in the overall conflict of the game by devouring and weaponizing the "Dragon Gods", having the beasts exist seemingly on their own merits while actually using them to further its schemes. Lavos pulled the city of Chronopolis through time to bring its Frozen Flame closer to itself, Lavos intending on finding one other human to merge with as it has Schala and use them to finalize its plans: become the "Time Devourer" and annihilate all of time-space continua, wiping out the Chrono world's multiverse.
- When our heroes make temporary contact with Lavos through the Frozen Flame, several of them are each given a harrowing glimpse into the mind of Lavos. Lavos not only reveals to one of them its destruction of civilization in past millenia and uses illusions of loved ones and power to tempt them to try to take the Frozen Flame and merge with it, but Lavos also reveals its mindset of "survival of the fittest", believing that humans are nothing but small, petty creatures who were "born in sin, and will die in sin!"
- The heroes manage to use magic to tear Schala away from Lavos's essence, depriving it of its power and destroying it once and for all while Schala is freed from the hatred and despair Lavos kept her full of for so long.
Mitigating features?
Taking just Trigger into account, Lavos is presented as an Eldritch creature that no one has dialogue with. It is capable of scheming, manipulating Zeal, evolving humanity as "cattle" to feed on for its own evolution—with characters noting things like humanity has been "Grown like farm animals, waiting to be slaughtered...All of our history...our art and science...all to meet the needs of that beast!"—and harvesting the DNA of all life on Earth to further evolve itself, but there's no actual personality behind its actions. It's up to no good and it's sentient, but it's lacking in actual personality traits, and for years we've deemed it doesn't count for this. This lead to some fans even theorizing that Lavos is just an animal following its instincts, which is ehhh just ACI but still, a theory.
But Cross, while it's a very dense, convoluted game? It gives the heroes a direct mental throughline to Lavos in one scene via the Frozen Flame, where each of the dozens of player characters have a unique dialogue with Lavos, ranging from them being tempted into using its power, to it speaking directly to them...and it is shown once and for all to be far from a simple animal. While we don't see/hear what Lavos is directly saying, the characters each react to its words and even quote them back to it, remarking "Survival of the fittest? Is that the true meaning of evolution?!", or "An ancient magical kingdom? You destroyed it 10,000 years ago?", or "I know that what you say may be true...But it is because we have such a petty and short life that we all live life to the fullest, for all it's worth! No one, including you, has the right to take that away from us!"
Furthermore, several characters say that Lavos is full of "pure and genuine hatred", is "evil and sinister", etc. Its hatred and evil infected Schala and made her loathe all of life and want to destroy everything as the Devourer, with only glimpses of her breaking through to cry that Lavos's essence is overtaking her. It's made pretty damn clear by the end of both games that Lavos may not talk much, but that it's very symbiote-like in its evil, corrupting nature, and between this, its belief that Might Makes Right, and things like telling humans they live "small, petty, pretentious lives", it gives it enough characterization, IMO.
Heinousness?
In the first game, it rears up humanity so it can harvest their DNA through the ages, only to wipe them out in one timeline and cause a hellton of problems building up to it, from destroying the dinosaurs to corrupting Zeal and annihilating her kingdom. Then in the second game, it merges with and corrupts Schala to become the Time Devourer and nearly destroys all of reality and returns everything to "nothingness", implied to be motivated in this outing purely out of revenge for its first defeat.
Final Verdict?
Yes to a long-time miss!
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Huh. Sure to Lavos.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Not the Eye
Big ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Lavos
Big Lavos.
Edited by SailorVenus372 on Oct 13th 2023 at 4:07:16 AM
I’m plotting my schemes wherever I go! They’re perfect in every way…
Suprising to Lavos.
Edited by Michealthehero21 on Oct 13th 2023 at 5:07:45 AM
Yes to Lavos, great work on getting up the proto-Life Fibre after your work on KLK!
Unofficial co-Wiki Curator for Magnificent Bastard
Goku Black
lavos
Woagh
"The Juice is Loose."
Ultimate Moral Compass
Lavos
The wifi here sucks
I'm not sure about that one, but hey, you never know...
What's The Work?
Dragonheart: Vengeance is the fifth movie in the Dragonheart franchise, and a prequel to the first film. It takes place in the kingdom of Wallachia, and is about a young farmer named Lukas who goes on a quest to kill the four marauders who murdered his parents.
Who Is He and What Has He Done?
The Snake, the Scorpion, the Bear and the Wolf are four vicious marauders who have secretly been hired by King Razvan (remember him? I made an EP for him a while ago) to attack the starving villagers of his kingdom in order to cover up his failure to resolve the food shortage.
Note : This EP is mainly about the Snake, and maybe the Scorpion and the Bear as well (the Wolf doesn't count, he has a somewhat tragic backstory and more-or-less redeem himself at the end when he publicly reveals the truth about King Razvan).
At the start of the film, the marauders have already sacked six villages, and end up attacking Lukas' farm. They kill both his parents and burn the place, while Lukas manages to hide. The marauders then decide to go their separate ways in order to recruit more henchmen and prepare their weapons, and they plan to meet again within a week to resume their plundering.
The Bear goes to the Broken Lands to recruit a tribe of particularly brutal barbarians. One day, he sees the young Lukas and tries to assault him, but the dragoness Siveth comes to his defense. The Bear orders his barbarians to kill the dragoness while he gleefully tries to throw Lukas off a cliff. However, he accidentally falls off the cliff himself and dies from the fall.
Afterwards, Lukas and Siveth go after the Wolf. The Wolf realizes that they're tracking him and attacks them by surprise with his henchmen, but Siveth manages to capture him and forces him to lead them to the Snake.
At the Snake's lair, a mercenary named Darius who was hired by Lukas tries to spy on the marauder, but he gets spotted. As the Snake and her henchmen prepare to kill him, Siveth arrives and saves his life. The Snake lets her henchmen fight them while she flees, however Lukas shows up and blocks her way. She almost manages to stab the young boy in the stomach, luckily he survives and knocks her out.
At night, Lukas questions the Snake about the Scorpion's whereabouts, but she doesn't reveal anything and simply taunts him instead. The next day, she is taken to jail. Unfortunately, the Scorpion comes to the prison in the evening, poisons the jailer and helps the Snake escape. The two marauders then start a fire in the city before fleeing.
The following morning, Lukas and Darius give chase to the marauders. Suddenly, they are ambushed by the Snake, the Scorpion and a few henchmen, who seriously injure them both. The Scorpion tries to drown Darius while the Snake toys with Lukas by inflicting several small wounds on him to make him suffer. Luckily, Darius manages to use an arrow to pierce the Scorpion's throat and Siveth arrives just in time to save Lukas. The Snake surrenders and offers to reveal to everyone that King Razvan is the one who hired the marauders, however Siveth isn't in a forgiving mood and brutally devours her.
A few weeks later, Darius makes the Wolf reveals to the kingdom that the four marauders have been acting on King Razvan's orders, so Razvan is overthrown and sent to jail alongside the Wolf.
Heinous Standard
From what we know, they pillaged at least six villages, and it has been repeatedly stated that there were numerous casualties. And that was just the beginning, they were planning to continue their plundering with more henchmen and weapons to cause even more havoc.
The other villains in this movie series are pretty nasty, but the one thing that make the four marauders stand out is that they have the least resources by far. Most of the other major villains tend to be powerful rulers and have entire armies under their command (even Thorgrim was the leader of a Viking clan). Meanwhile, the marauders are relatively lowly criminals with only a few dozen henchmen (20-30 at best, and most of them have been recruited after their raids on the six villages). While they were hired by King Razvan, he didn't seem to have given them much of anything to back them up.
Mitigating Factors?
Technically, they are acting on King Razvan's orders. However, they are bona fide Psycho for Hire who enjoy their job way too much.
The Snake easily comes across as the most sadistic and depraved of the bunch. She's the one who killed Lukas's mother, and she cruelly taunts him about her death during the film. She's also shown to enjoy making her enemies suffer as long as possible, and she loves killing so much that she often does little dances of joy after killing her victims.
The Scorpion is a ruthless assassin. He killed Lukas's father with his poisoned weapon, and the guy was in a pretty bloody state suggesting he had been brutally beaten up or even tortured beforehand. BTW, he is notably the only marauder to use poison on his victims.
The Bear has much less screen-time than his cronies, but he's still portrayed as a savage and bloodthirsty brute who loves violence and laughs his ass off when he's about to throw a young boy off a cliff. He's also vaguely implied to be a cannibal (when he spots Lukas, he enthusiastically yells "Meat!").
Redeeming Qualities
While it's never mentioned in the film, the Snake and the Scorpion are apparently supposed to be siblings. However, they don't show much family love towards each others. The closest thing is that the Scorpion does go to the trouble of rescuing his sister when she's imprisoned, and the Snake doesn't reveal anything about her brother when she's questioned by Lukas. but both of these can be chalked up as Pragmatic Villainy. For what it's worth, the Snake doesn't react when her brother is killed by Darius (although to be fair, it's unclear if she did notice his death or not).
BTW, they have no loyalty to King Razvan, with the Snake being perfectly willing to denounce him just to save her own skin.
Freudian Excuse
The Wolf has one (he became a killer because a man hurt his family and scalped him). The three others have nothing.
Verdict
I'll leave that up to you guys.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Abstain on the Dragonheart guys
Edited by therealjackieboy on Oct 13th 2023 at 5:49:38 AM
"No running in the halls!"
I'm going to be honest, I'm gonna abstain because the EP feels rather confused as to who it's proposing and seems to want the thread to figure out who should go up without giving a solid argument for or against them. This one's too ambiguous for me to want to vote on.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
From what I can gather, the effortpost is talking about four characters
Feels a little too much like a small group unless they do stuff that stands out From each other
Pending:
Forgo, when you do the writeups, where should they go in the tree?
Also, for Expend4bles, who should go first? I say Rahmat since he's The Heavy.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts