Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
Potholed Mask of Power and Curse instead, Jay.
Feels good, don't it?
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Yeah, that works ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Cut Rat King and Dabada.
I am going to do a rewrite of my Old Man Quill Entry, sperating the two characters:
Old write up:
- Old Man Quill: Galactus serves as the dark god of the Church of Universal Truth, which is led by his zealous servant, the Matriarch. Galactus stole the power cosmic from the Silver Surfer, putting him into a coma in the process. Galactus than uses the power cosmic to create a machine to mind control people, mentally enslaving people to fill the Church's ranks. Matriarch retains her free will and leads the Church's forces, attempting to subdue planets and lead Galactus to them so that he can devour them. The Matriarch attacks Peter Quill, providing a distraction so Galactus can devour the planet Spartax, killing everyone on it, including Quill's family. The Matriarch and the Church launch an attack on New Xander, home of the Nova Corps. When the Nova Corps seemingly defeats the Church, the Matriarch summons Galactus, so that he can devour that planet as well. When the Matriarch discovers most of Earth's heroes have been killed in the supervillain uprising, she informs Galactus, who is delighted to have a chance to devour Earth without interference.
New write up:
- Old Man Quill:
- Galactus serves as the dark god of the Church of Universal Truth. Galactus steals the power cosmic from the Silver Surfer, putting him into a coma in the process. Galactus then uses the power cosmic to create a machine to mind control people, mentally enslaving people to fill the Church's ranks. Galactus devours worlds that defy him, including the planets of Spartex and Xander, resulting in the deaths of Peter Quill's family. When Galactus learns the planet Earth is no longer defended by superheroes, he goes to Earth to devour it as well.
- The Matriarch is the leader of the Universal Church of Truth and one of the only Church members who is not brainwashed, choosing to serve Galactus of her own free will. The Matriarch leads the Church's armada to planets for the Chruch forcible convert and summons Galactus to destroy any planet that refuses to submit. The Matriarch intentionally distracts Peter Quill so Galactus can devour the planet Spartax and summons Galactus to Earth when she learns there are no superheroes left to defend it. When some Church members break free from Galactus' control, the Matriarch has them executed.
Edited by Overlord on Dec 14th 2022 at 4:42:10 AM
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Nice job on the House Of Anubis rewrites and the Old Man Quill rewrites guys!
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Introduce a little anarchy
Just wanted to ask, when will we be able to propose characters again?
~~Agentof Chaosreporting~~
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
What's the vote on cutting Rat King?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Proposals don't happen until the approval threads are made.
Okay, I've got two needless subpages I'd like to discuss. I'll get to the second in a separate post, but the first is Darkman, which currently clocks in at eight examples (the page, when it went up, used to have nine examples, but two of them were just a duplicate before the entry was merged).
Six of those entries, I think, are fine. There's two from the films I'd like to relitigate, one for a definite cut and one who I really think needs to be seriously discussed and possibly chopped as well.
First:
- The Return of Durant: Dr. Alfred Hathaway is the maniacal scientist broken out of the asylum he's in and hired by Durant to build the highly powerful and intense laser weapon called "The Vigilante". Crazed and obsessed with science, Hathaway, having experimented on with radioactive and hazardous materials to build his own hydrogen bomb prior to this—with one such power source frying a Durant henchman who misuses it, harnesses that same power for the weapons, which is shown to be capable of blowing up a building. Another time when used on a human target, it painfully warps him through electrocution before then obliterating him where he stands. Happy to be paid for both his part in a business deal and when the weapon is mass produced, but panicking when Darkman sabotages everything, Hathaway then murders the potential buyer when he tries to rip off the weapons from him.
Original post is here. Both the post and the writeup emphasize odd, non-qualifying details like the accidental death of a henchman (caused by the mook's own stupidity, not by any part played—even indirectly—on Hathaway's part), and the indirect death he causes by distributing this weapon to a much nastier qualifier (Durant).
My issue with Hathaway is that everything he does is strictly under Durant's orders. He's a minion, and not even a particularly proactive one; while he's definitely gleeful about building weapons, everything he does is because Durant and paying and directing him. He only accomplishes one direct murder of his own, and it's of a Neo-Nazi Asshole Victim trying to rob him blind. Not a large bump for his qualifications.
When other minions in the series include Durant's own murdering henchmen, who sadistically accompany him on massacres, I don't think Hathaway counts. The writeup has to stretch to accommodate the most indirect forms of death he causes; beyond all that, he's just a generic, weapon-making mad scientist.
Cut.
Second:
- Die Darkman Die: Peter Rooker is a drug-dealing crime lord who, after being ripped off by Darkman, seeks to use his power for his own benefit. Rooker—spiking his drugs with steroids and causing deaths as a result—also murders his supplier for skimming the drugs and costing him money too. Courtesy of his mistress Dr. Bridget Thorne, Rooker tricks Darkman into thinking his pain receptors will be restored, but instead has her implant a device into him that administers a painful electric shock. Rooker then has Darkman's adrenaline harnessed while he's taken hostage—intending to dispose of him once he's through—and plans to use the samples to create a drug that, when taken, causes the person to become manic and super-strong like Darkman so that Rooker can use assassins to murder the DA giving him trouble. Jealous of Darkman's developing relationship with Rooker's own wife Angela and daughter Jenny, Rooker has Thorne murdered in front of Angela, takes the drug himself to try to kill Darkman, and, in the process, nearly kills Jenny by scarring her with natural gas.
Original EP is here. Peter Rooker is a nasty customer and the details in the writeup are, to my memory, accurate. He's worse than the first film's Big Bad (said Big Bad, Louis Strack Jr, killed his first wife, tries to kill his next love interest, and had the hero horribly burned and his lab assistant killed in the first place) if somewhat insubstantially—the "deaths" his tainted drugs refer to are three football players who OD offscreen.
What the EP completely fails to address is how Rooker stands up to the series' most prominent qualifier, Durant. In the first movie alone, Durant racks up a body count of about fifty people (per this), many of whom were tortured beforehand, and in the sequel he goes onto murder numerous other people and he plans to terrorize the city with a superweapon. Durant's body count compared to Rooker's is fifty-to-one, and Durant engages in horrible sadism Rooker never does.
The one, and I mean the one thing that could potentially push Rooker is his case of near-Offing the Offspring when his daughter Jenny almost dies during the final battle as a direct consequence of his actions, but even that IIRC is fairly indirect; it's caused by collateral damage as a result of the duel, not Rooker actively seeking to kill her.
While Rooker's bad, I think of the three big bads, Rooker is the second-place to Durant's first, and Durant has a pretty sizable lead on him. I'm willing to hear some discussion, but I honestly think he's better off cut for failing the gargantuan relative standard imposed by Durant.
Hathaway, I think, is a definite cut and another I am strongly, strongly vouching for Rooker to follow. Either way, I don't think Darkman will really justify itself existing after a subpage after this. What do we say?
Edited by Scraggle on Dec 14th 2022 at 6:15:16 AM
Showtime!
Definitely cut Hathaway, I'm fine with cutting Roker too
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
Well, I decided to rewrite Ozai's entry and try to keep it to crimes in the animated series since his crimes in the comic don't add much to the magnitude of his crimes beyond pettiness. I'll be open to further rewrites. So here's my first draft:
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Fire Lord Ozai is the power-hungry tyrant of the Fire Nation seeking to wipe all resistance to his rule, even if said-resistance are composed of children. As a family man, Ozai controls all aspects of his family's life, limiting their freedoms and encouraging their worst traits just to please him. He obtains the throne through manipulating his wife Ursa to murder his father Azulon, and then banishing her without letting her see her children again on the pain of death. He abuses his son Zuko whenever he shows kindness or mercy, going as far as burning his face and banishing him for speaking out of turn, and encourages his daughter Azula to be a perfect, merciless weapon for the Fire Nation, only to cast her aside when he no longer needs her. When faced with open rebellion in the Earth Kingdom, Ozai plans to use Sozin's Comet to incinerate the entire continent and rule from the ashes as Phoenix King. A horrible father and brutal dictator, Ozai represents the very worst of Fire Nation imperialism and Avatar Aang's ultimate test to stay true to his pacifist ideals.
Edited by Shadao on Dec 14th 2022 at 5:20:46 AM
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Rat King seemed to be universal agreement with like 10 cuts?
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Hath and Roke
Man in the Yellow Hat
I counted 15/20 unanimous cuts for Rat King.
Edited by Purgatoryisof2 on Dec 14th 2022 at 8:38:21 AM
He/Him
Professor Gigachad
Hathaway sounds like a cut, as does Rooker though not quite as much.
What is the next subpage you are taking a look at?
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Texas Chainsaw Massacre, and I'll elaborate why once people have voted on Darkman.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Cut the Darkman pair and I like the Ozai rewrite!
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
The Emperor of Evil!
Cut the Darkman examples.
Professor Gigachad
Alright I guess I will have to work on getting rid of the Darkman page, I will give it a bit for people to vote before I do that though.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
I have thoughts before I vote on the Darkman characters.
Having worked with TBNY on each one, I'll start by saying Hathaway even before Durant worked with him experimented on nuclear materials and is willing to build a super weapon to mass produce as well. Even with Durant paying him, it's clearly something that's right up his alley and establishes him as more than just an ordinary mook. Also, experimenting with the dangerous and hazardous materials to make said weapon clearly establishes his pattern.
As for Rooker, seeing the drugs and hearing about the deaths is enough to establish that pattern and torturing Darkman as he does while also intending to send emotionally unstable assassins he's created through the drug made with Darkman's blood to kill the DA are all unique crimes as well. Also, regardless of Jenny nearly dying being an indirect cause of his wreck-less actions, he still showed no genuine sign of care for her, kept his focus on wanting to kill Darkman and even in his crazed state still shows awareness of his surroundings—he's able to stop at one point to berate Angela for nearly killing him during the climax. I think that sounds like it's enough for Rooker to be on a level that doesn't have to compete with Durant if you ask me while still being baseline.
Not opposed to cutting if that's where everyone else lies on the matter. I just want discussion on these points too before that though.
"Patterns" mean nothing here because there are no other inferred victims and I don't want us abusing that rule for every instance of vaguely-inferred Offstage Villainy. Hathaway's past as a Mad Scientist is entirely offscreen backstory relayed in maybe a few sentences. There is nothing individual we can pin to Hathaway. Likewise, while it's a possibility more may die because of Rooker's drugs, it's Fridge Horror; as stands, only three bodies drop because of that.
I grant that the consequence of Rooker's actions is still Offing the Offspring, but it's less remarkable to me if her death is an indirect accident. As is, his body count is piffling compared to Durant's record of torture and murder of dozens and dozens of people. I really don't see the argument for him standing out even considering Jenny.
Fair enough on both. Gotta be done then. to keeping Hathaway and to keeping Rooker.
Shame, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.
Gotta love Jaws!
Updated the appropriate sandboxes including the Former CMs one. We're good to go. Only three pages total to do, so it was ridiculously easy for the most part.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Moved to next page.
Edited by WetFlannels on Dec 14th 2022 at 2:55:24 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Potholes look good, though the Mask isn't an Artifact of Doom (it's not an evil artifact, it only works for the pure of heart) and Nina doesn't suffer Mind Rape (it's just a lot of abuse and tormenting, but Mind Rape is pretty extreme)
Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 14th 2022 at 6:51:27 AM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness