Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
Keep Gaiaphage, Dean and Missy
Cut Felmet
Goku Black
Alright so now for my suggestion. Which is a drive to redlink everything (I.e. remove all the other links that are being used in their steed).
It's mostly done on MB. But we still have a long way to go here. Still with the sandboxes and number of people here I think we can do it in no time.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Cut Felmet.
And while I'm here, I got my own cut to propose:
- Creature Feature:
- "Such Horrible Things": The unnamed Villain Protagonist talks of all the things he's done while stating outright that he should be killed gruesomely for having done it all. It starts off with him being just a kid who pranks people in cruel ways. His first known crime is causing one of his friends to vanish in the woods, never to be found. He then burned down his own house because he hated its color. At twelve, he tossed his sister down a well to her seeming doom. When recounting what happened when he was 14, he says that nothing happened, but then he remembers "that one time" and chuckles. Cue a series of screams and about 50 seconds without any narration. His reign of terror ended when he tried to bury his brother alive. The brother just barely survived, but got the narrator locked in an asylum for the rest of his life.
- "Such Horrible Things
I already had suspicions about this guy counting as a CM because his entry was written weirdly but, after listening to the song and reading the lyrics for good measure, I can proudly say he isn't heinous enough for this trope. For instance, no-one was inside his house when he burnt it down ("I burned it down to the ground, When no one was around") and it was never stated that his sister was killed when he pushed her down the well ("She just fell, Oh but I loved to dwell"). And most of the song details random pranks he got up to such as pouring super-glue on his dad's hair and pretending to drown in the sea before laughing at whoever came to save him. Really, the only thing he has going for him is burying his brother alive even if the brother survived.
So, we got two attempted murders (possibly three, if you think he cut the brakes to someone's car when he was fourteen) and one count of arson. Also, the song kinda has a Black Comedy tone to it IMO so I don't think the attempts on his siblings' lives are played as seriously as they could have been anyway. Cut right away.
Edited by CaptainPinkiePie on Dec 12th 2022 at 6:05:15 AM
Captain Pinkie Pie! Nah, just Pinkie Pie.
Happy to cut there
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Seems like a cut.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Draftsman of Doom
Sounds cut-worthy. Also, I see Lo Bu was discussed again. Would like to know if a verdict still needs to be reached.
Feels good, don't it?
Man in the Yellow Hat
It was cut I think, 18 to 17 with 6 abstains.
Edited by Purgatoryisof2 on Dec 12th 2022 at 8:51:19 AM
He/Him
Cut Creature Feature villain.
Something that has been bothering me for a while is Volsung's current entry at Thorgal which has a few inacuracies and erroneous info.
- The Guardian of the Keys: Volsung of Nichor, in contrast to the many complex and sympathetic villains, is a thuggish coward and all-around scumbag. After Thorgal tried to save him, to no avail due to his own greed, Volsung is revived by the evil deity Nidhogg. Given Thorgal's form, Volsung seduces a deity in love with Thorgal, in order to sleep with her and steal her magic belt. Volsung murders Thorgal and takes over his life, attempting to ruin his enemy's good name. Volsung gleefully murders the village chief, rapes his wife, tries to kill even more people while trying to eventually rape Thorgal's own wife and murder Thorgal's baby daughter out of nothing but spite and cruelty.
Now, Volsung handily keeps. He's a low tier criminal, the only confirmed Serial Rapist in the series and terrible excuse of human being in general. However I'd like the clear up a few things:
- Volsung didn't die because of his greed. In a trial, the Benevolent Ones aked him to pick a door between three, two leading to his doom and on leading to the prize. (scene here and here) Basically, Volsung lost a fantastical version of the russian roulette, not because of any fault of his.
- Thorgal didn't try to save his life (not that he could've, to be fair)
- Volsung never actively tries to kill Thorgal's baby daughter but he does threatens to break her head if Thorgal's wife doesn't shut up. Volsung does later use Thorgal 6 years old son as a hostage for the magic belt. Still nasty but I would like expand and correct that part.
- Volsung actually has a far more ambitious and grandiose plan than just ruining Thorgal's name: He wants to take leadership of the Vikings and conquer the whole world thanks to the magic belt that grants him invulnerability. That needs to be mentionned and emphazed since it entails lots of deaths at his hands.
The rest is accurate. I'd like to add his attempt to torture a 13 years old Wolfcub in the spinoff series.
What should I do?
Rewritte Volsung as I see fit or wait until the other thread is open so I can propose him with a better EP.
Edited by Silverblade2 on Dec 12th 2022 at 3:37:45 PM
Showtime!
Cut the Creature Feature guy. I genuinely though we downvoted him for being too comedic, tbh
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
The Emperor of Evil!
Noticed this thread is finally opened so I thought I stop by, also cut the Creature Feature dude.
Not the Eye
Cut creature feature guy.
@ Silverblade, however it suits you. Ep would be fun thought.
Cut "Such Horrible Things" protagonist
Regarding A Song of Ice and Fire, considering how many mass murderers apparently are there in spin off books, i want to not necessarily ask for any cuts, but question if their existance and their crimes affect heinous standard of the books and if everyone listed is heinous enough? For example does Joffrey stand out with so many vile mass murderers and rapists around (and many corrupt kings, who have wast amounts of people killed)? In the show Joffrey give the order to kill all Robert's "bastard" children, including infants, while in the books it was Cersei who did it, which kinda makes Joffrey in the books a bit less heinous than Joffrey in the show, which i don't know if it affects him being heinous enough to stand out.
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Dec 12th 2022 at 6:47:26 PM
Lies and Violence!
Haven't watched the show or read the books myself, but I believe the main leg Joffrey stands on, besides just being Joffrey in general, is singlehandedly kicking off the War of Five Kings by executing Ned. There's a lot of mass-murderers and rapists and tyrants, but only so many can claim credit for directly starting a fantasy world war—still a good few, admittedly, but not enough that I think it makes it any less noteworthy.
I believe we also take the book and show canon separately, so the heinousness of a character in one won't affect the other.
Cut Felmet and creature feature guy, I'd say you can rewrite Volsung now.
I believe Joffrey is fine as he's 12 years old and, from what I recall, in spite of being the king, he's restrained (at least a little) by Tywin
Edited by Silverblade2 on Dec 20th 2022 at 2:32:54 PM
Yes, Joffrey stands out enough. he's 12 and his excesses are compared to Aerys at his worst. There are dozens of bastards, petty and brutal kings, etc. We have plenty of breathing room.
I think Joffrey is one of the weakest keepers of the franchise (right next to Karl Tanner) despite how infamous he is among the fanbase, and I don't think we should put the blame for the War of the Five Kings on him as there are many other factors that contributed to it and Littlefinger was the one who intentionally manipulated all the events to start it, but I believe the fact he is still a teenager and that we see his cruelties more closely than the cruelties of most of the other keepers, allows him to stand out.
Cut the Creature Feature protagonist
Edited by WatTambor on Dec 12th 2022 at 7:19:01 PM
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Having checked the vote tally for Lo Bu again, I was sure it was 17-17 with six abstains.
I've tried to find the supposed 18th cut vote, but to be honest here I could not find it.
I'll let this last a bit longer.
Now 18 keeps to 17 cuts.
Edited by MasterJoseph on Dec 12th 2022 at 12:04:34 PM
IPP Wick Check created.
I personally would consider Qhored Hoare (and maybe Dalton Greyjoy) the second-weakest example in the A Song of Ice And Fire setting, because like with Lo Bu we know he's a Monster* but not if he's a Complete one - all his heinous deeds are inflicted on non-Ironborn and the "Cruel" nickname appears to be from the Reach. And I can't find any evidence of him taxing his lands - sure that we are not mixing Qhored and Harren Hoare up?
*Although one can quibble on comparative heinousness - much of this sounds like "Standard Ironborn pirate fare", and Tywin Lannister and Aerys II Targaryen seem to do a lot more than Qhored.
Although the " rumored to dabble in alchemy and sorcery" in the Tyanna example jumps out to me - what do these rumours add to her Complete Monster-hood?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
The Moron
I mean, just from reading the write up, Qhored is responsible for over one thousand rapes - even in this franchise and even for the Ironborn that’s more than bad enough, even compared to Tywin and the like
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Dec 12th 2022 at 11:42:23 AM
Man in the Yellow Hat
@Master Joseph Ah, sorry, didn't notice Xie voted previously and not just on page 16. Yeah, it was 17-17.
He/Him
Problem is, he's responsible for thousand kidnappings where Tywin Lannister does explicitly instruct his generals (and Gregor Clegane, who is a Complete Monster in fact) to "set the Riverlands on fire". Given the amounts of Rape, Pillage, and Burn this involved, and Tywin's own fondness of sexual violence, "mass rape" is about as implicit in Tywin's war plans as in Qhored's kidnappings.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
There's no hint of altruistic motives ascribed to Qhored and Dalton, unlike other rulers of the Iron Islands (such as Quellon Greyjoy). There's no reason a CM needs to be Stupid Evil and abusing their own every chance they get. With Lo Bu there is at least arguable factors that he might care for his own.
Qhored and Dalton are given much more in-depth characterization and neither displays anything but egomania, personal ambition and cruelty. Certainly zero hints that either care for the Islands with how charily they abuse their own domains.
And we know what kidnapping means with the Iron Islands. That means "Salt Wives" which is rape by proxy. Rape is also a part of war, but Gregor (who keeps on his own for a variety of reasons) is specifically noted to be far more brutal about it than the norm, which is exactly why he's dispatched on these specific means. Whereas Qhored and Dalton make rape the end and not the means. It's a key, chief difference to others such as at the Blackwater where it's noted rape is likely to occur until Stannis can restore order.
By contrast, Qhored and Dalton specifically go in with full intent to inflict mass rape. That is a huge difference and an important one.
Compare to other Iron Islanders: Dagon Greyjoy (responsible for violent raidings), Harren Hoare (mass conquest and slavery), Balon (attempted rebellion and specifically noted as a successful raider),Vickon Greyjoy (reaver, but much less vicious about it)...Dalton and Qhored stand head and shelters for atrocity by Iron Islands standards. Dalton is even specifically mentioned to only care for his sword, the sea, and raping people. Whereas Qhored is easily the cruelest of the Hoare line we see.
In addition, being a salt-wife is worse than the usual 'foraging.' It doesn't just mean "Rape, Pillage, and Burn," it means making someone a sex slave, subject to repeated abuse as long as the Iron Islanders desire.
Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 12th 2022 at 8:53:20 AM
To be clear, this is all we know of Qhored Hoare, it's a so-so case for Complete Monster-hood:
It was Qhored who famously boasted that his writ ran "wherever men could smell salt water or hear the crash of waves." In his youth, he captured and sacked Oldtown, bringing thousands of women and girls back to the Iron Islands in chains. At thirty, he defeated the Lords of the Trident in battle, forcing the river king Bernarr II to bend the knee and yield up his three young sons as hostages. Three years later, he put the boys to death with his own hand, cutting out their hearts when their father's annual tribute was late in coming. When their grieving sire went to war to avenge them, King Qhored and his ironmen destroyed Bernarr's host and had him drowned as a sacrifice to the Drowned God, putting an end to House Justman and throwing the riverlands into bloody anarchy.
But not for "in-depth characterization", not really.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
If someone wants to challenge Qhoren on those grounds, I'm all for hearing it. But Dalton is one who I think is ironclad for character and deed (no pun intended)...but Lo Bu's whole issue is ambiguity. Qhoren....doesn't really have that, IMO
But for Qhored, we know this: He has some major cruelties to his name, sacked Oldtown and took 1000 salt wives, slaughtered the Justman line and was the pinnacle of Ironborn expansion.
Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 12th 2022 at 8:58:22 AM
I hate throwing a whole movie at you guys, but here's the animated adaptation of Wyrd Sisters that nearly a one-for-one remake. 1:01:50 and 1:06:44 are during Lady Felmet's scenes with Nanny Ogg in the torture chamber. My point being the book never truly plays her 100% deadly serious and is mostly a comedy, especially compared to later villains.