Needs Help (1 October 2021): Five Man Band

Five-Man Band, as a trope, is rather old and highly-wicked. However, as the wick check has revealed, it has a couple of persistent issues; indentation violations and zero-context examples. Of all the examples on the wick check, only seven provide full context for the core members, and even those fail at example indentation.

The current system on the main page, which encourages supertrope-subtrope sorting, may be directly affecting both of these issues. A possible solution would be to enforce single-bullet examples on the main page.

Additionally, the trope sees heavy misuse; additional members and role-doubling, which make the band lack five members, are added, resulting in more than half of the examples being shoehorned. There is no way to change the page to prevent this; all that can be done is the removal of offending examples.

On a final note, also included in the wick check is an analysis of how the gender rules are being followed; due to admin fiat, examples are supposed to be exactly one or two female members. This is not stated on the main page, resulting in around half of all examples not having that number. Either the rule or the main page should be changed to reflect what is stated on the other.

Opened for discussion, although we ask that we focus on the formatting issue.

I say split off the roles into separate entries. As for 5MB itself...declare it defunct somehow? Can't think of how to do the single bullet format for it when I've seen it infested with ZCE's more often than not.

Edited by Berrenta on Aug 24th 2021 at 10:23:09 AM

I mean, that's already what we're technically supposed to do. I think the best way to handle the formatting is to just have all the context in one post explaining the actual dynamic of the team, and have the individual roles listed separately. I don't know if we can possibly declare it "defunct" though, unless we keep examples on the main page and subpages and remove all other wicks.

...And okay, look, I know the formatting issue is a major problem but I think we can't not talk about the gender issue. It's been a massive concern for almost a decade now, and recently it's brought the cleanup thread to a screeching halt. I don't want to downplay the other issues because they're big problems too, but can we please finally address the gender stuff?

I don't even want to derail the main topic here, but I at least want approval to discuss it at some point during this thread, so that it's not considered an issue if we do.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 24th 2021 at 12:30:32 PM

I never got why The Chick had to be the token female of the group, especially since the chick's role is essentially that of The Heart.

Neither do I, but like I said, I don't want to derail here. If Berrenta wants to focus on the formatting first I'll respect that; I just want to be sure the gender stuff won't just be swept under the rug, since it's literally put our cleanup effort in stasis.

On that note, though, Rust, have you thoughts on the indentation issue?

About the formatting, I've mentioned it before, but I prefer for the sub-tropes to be grouped together, especially since those sub-tropes are actually essential parts of the FMB.

It's neater to write the entry as:

• Five-Man Band:
  • The Leader: Alex. Context.
  • The Lancer: Bob. Context
  • The Smart Guy: Charlie. Context
  • The Big Guy: Daniel. Context
  • The Chick: Erica. Context

Rather than:

• Five-Man Band: Alex (The Leader), Bob (The Lancer), Charlie (The Smart Guy), Daniel (The Big Guy) and Erica (The Chick) are a team of adventurers going on a journey to defeat The Big Bad.

...and then have the context of how and why each member fit their specific roles spread out all over the page. The second is practically ZCE, and if we expand on how the characters fit the roles, it will become a very long paragraph that would be redundant to the individual trope listing anyway.

Edited by Adept on Aug 25th 2021 at 12:17:24 AM

I like the idea of allowing males and other genders to be The Chick and The Heart, and removing the limit of females. ^note Not because it’s 2021, and gender roles are bad.

Edited by callmeamuffin on Aug 25th 2021 at 3:50:18 AM

I feel that at this point, deprecating 5MB is probably the best option. It isn't really a trope, and it's a ZCE nightmare - plus its components are actual tropes, and listing 5MB as a trope would either duplicate examples or break alphabetization.

Hmmm... depreciating it probably would also mean an end to all the gender concerns and the like since it'd no longer matter if the team has 2 girls or 3 or The Chick or The Heart...

Y'know, I'm starting to come around on that.

Make the current gender-restricted definition a subtrope, like Five Man Band Classic? Like how the Classical Anti-Hero page was made to contain the older, "Type 1" meaning of Anti-Hero.

Edited by Twiddler on Aug 24th 2021 at 11:49:04 AM

That's a pretty good idea too. It solves the entire debate by recasting it as an outdated trope that has evolved since.

On Adept's comment: I believe that it is possible to have a healthy Five-Man Band example on one bullet. I've done it myself on Rimba Racer:

• Five-Man Band: After finding out that the Rimba Grand Prix is rigged, Tag forms a team with four allies. Tag is a hot-headed newbie to the races, and constantly aims to win every race, but is kept safe and in check by his older mechanic and father-figure, Miles. His fellow teammates are Sonny, whose large frame and larger car do a lot of the heavy lifting, Meelo, the socially-awkward tech genius, and Meika, who is the most feminine and socially-active of the group.

I'm staying in favour of keeping all the formatting on one bullet.

As for deprecating the trope, I could get on-board with that as a last resort, if it proves to be unsalvagable.

I still don't see anything wrong with separating each component parts into their own bullet points. which IMO is still nicer to look at than a long paragraph, even if it's possible to write it concisely like . We use sub-bullets with Freudian Trio and Four-Temperament Ensemble as well.

Edited by Adept on Aug 25th 2021 at 3:08:08 PM

I don't care how neat it looks; I just care that the formatting is consistently enforced on both the main page and the work page, and that zero-context examples are being averted. According to Example Indentation in Trope Lists:

We shouldn't have to make exceptions; if a trope can't be summarised clearly and concisely on one bullet, then it probably isn't a trope. I have proven that FMB can; we don't need to make exceptions.

On top of that, I'm seeing a lot of ZCEs on both of those other tropes. Trope branching isn't helping with anything.

Edited by GoldenCityBird on Aug 25th 2021 at 9:16:35 AM

I am inclined to agree that examples for this trope should be only one bullet level, and describe how each character fits the roles and how the dynamics fit the trope. In fact, I would think that a good example of Five-Man Band is one where you don't need to cite any of the component tropes by name.

One problem with the current format is that is makes the trope look like the coincidence of 5 character tropes. It's a bit more than that.

As for deprecating the trope ... what does "deprecating" mean, here? Just because a trope is no longer used it doesn't mean that it stops being a trope.

The foremost problem here is that Five-Man Band is not and never was an actual trope. It is, at best, a vague similarity between a handful of works. Its existence is a relic of the early years of this wiki.

I have to agree with Adept. I don't like long paragraphs and I always trim them as much as possible. I love subbullets because they are indeed neater, and I don't think either format has to do with ZC Es bc those will happen regardless.

Besides, a trope becoming a Discredited Trope isn't a reason to get rid of it. It did evolve, and now it's either inverted/averted or replaced by trios and four ensembles.

Long is subjective. Is my eight-line example really that long? And, besides, trope indentation is sorted that way because it's what works the best for the site.

I'm starting to feel like this trope should just be made definition-only and noted as an ancient relic of TVT's past, but before I come to any solid conclusions, I should note that the trope has been analysed by a kinda-well-known creator. It's been a while since I've watched it, buf I feel like it might be able to change an opinion or two.

I agree with making it description-only. It's definitely a thing, but it's a thing that causes too much trouble to try to make examples for

I don't have a problem with making it definition-only.

Has this trope even been discredited?

Edited by RustBeard on Aug 25th 2021 at 8:57:56 AM

I don't know about discredited, but *used less* certainly. Modern female characters have a lot more to do than be pretty and keep the peace for one.

But does The Chick need to be female? If the purpose of that role is to be a peacemaker, it could be easily filled by a male character. It seems to me that there are plenty of valid examples of a Five-Man Band that we've cut because we decided that The Chick must be the token female.

Edited by RustBeard on Aug 25th 2021 at 9:03:07 AM

I'm also in favor of depreciating Five-Man Band. It's not a real trope. Never has been.

I feel like I've made up my mind on definition-onlying it and merging examples with The Team. If there's anything salvagable, I'm not really seeing it.