Needs Help: MST 3 K Mantra

I have a different idea. Since the MST3K Mantra is a reference to a line in the show's theme song, maybe we could make it about cases where "It's just a show" is referenced or discussed in-universe, whether from a metafictional perspective or not. Not sure about Bellisario's Maxim, though; I could go with it being made Fan Speak.

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on May 16th 2021 at 10:14:08 AM

Are there enough in-universe examples of this?

...Again, this is where a full wick check would come in handy.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I don't see the need to merge if they are made fan speak. They are different terms with different histories.

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"

Besides, I don't think you can actually merge two Fan Speak definition pages. By definition, you need one page for every term unless you do something like Lolicon and Shotacon and that's working mainly because they are short. Which MST 3 K Mantra And Bellisarios Maxim wouldn't be.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I've slept since I made my last post, and I think I'm now in favor of keeping them separate, but making both Fan Speak Definition-Only Pages.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

~War Jay 77

I wouldn't trust a fully random wick check to get a good sample of that idea. Most pages don't have the YMMV warning tag, so a regular wick check wouldn't be expected to gather many examples where the editors were explicit enough about if the expression/intent was used within the work itself. Instead, I'd invite you to check the medium pages (371, so 50) to discover how often the In-Universe tags are used to correctly suppress the YMMV sticker. My claim was already shown that it is showing up on work pages in a disproportionate manner. Your counter-claim is best served by checking the medium/work pages only.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Or you just put "mst3k mantra in-universe" or "bellisarios maxim in-universe" in the Google Site Search. That's how I found the In-Universe examples of Complaining About Shows You Don't Watch seven years ago.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I wouldn't call it a "counter claim", Crazy, just following up with Imp's idea and then pointing out that a wick check might show In-Universe usage. It also might not've. That's all.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

For the unwary, these are the In-Universe examples:

Bellisario's Maxim

• Looper: In-Universe. Old Joe basically says this when his younger self starts to try to dissect time travel.
• Recap.Star Wars Rebels S 1 E 08 Path Of The Jedi: In-Universe. When Kanan asks how Yoda can be talking to him, Yoda tells him that's not important.
• Ren Zha Fan Pai Zi Jiu Xi Tong: In-Universe. A very very large amount of suspension of disbelief is needed to even get through a single chapter of the original Proud Immortal Demon Way.
• YMMV.Doctor Who S 31 E 2 The Beast Below: In-universe, passengers are not to examine the starship too closely or they get eaten.

MST3K Mantra:

• Armada: In-universe example: Zack looks past all the apparent Plot Holes in Armada and Terra Firma's story, but he becomes suspicious when the EDA claims everything was true.
• Bojack Horseman: In-Universe. At the abortion clinic, Diane chats with a young woman about to terminate her pregnancy about Sextina Aquafina's highly-commercialized and low-brow pro-choice campaign when she "hijacks" Diane's announcement about her own abortion. Diane asks the young woman if she finds it tasteless that Sextina isn't treating the subject delicately and that it might give women the wrong impression about how serious it is. The woman reassures Diane that Sextina helped her have a sense of humor about an otherwise terrifying procedure and is genuinely confused as to why Diane is taking it so seriously.
• DragonFable: In-Universe example — Rolith asks us to use this in the Code Monkey Challenge. The Hero then notes that the show has been off the air since most players birth. Which isn't true, as the legal age to play DragonFable is 13, and the show ended in 1999. Then again...
• Endymion: In-universe. The prologue defends the whimsical story to come by stating it is just a "tale of the Man in the Moon."
• Gunarm Dyne: In-universe this is his attitude towards several titles that he feels are underrated because it requires looking beyond the surface elements people complain about but not looking at the big picture. The Ar tonelico trilogy and Time and Eternity are good examples of ones he will adamantly defend as being good games when looking beyond the innuendo and negative hype they're known for.
• Mastery: In-Universe, Min Hua says this after introducing Rei to Harry Potter and she starts questioning things.
• A Midsummer Night's Dream: In-Universe, no less, as part of Puck's final soliloquy: "If the story offended you, remind yourself it was nothing but a dream."
• A Midsummer Night's Dream (1935): In-Universe, no less, as part of Puck's final soliloquy: "If the story offended you, remind yourself it was nothing but a dream."
• Off the Line: In-Universe, when Bigshot complains the Elder Tree is too big to even to be possible, Mena tells him it's just a game.
• Recap.Bojack Horseman S 3 E 06 Brrap Brrap Pew Pew: In-Universe. Diane is appalled at Sextina's extremely tactless way of bringing attention to pro-choice politics, not to mention "hijacking" Diane's actual abortion, which is obviously a difficult experience for her, and feels it would be best to pull the plug on the whole thing and out Sextina as a fake. However, she meets a young woman in the abortion clinic who tells Diane that she sees Sextina's antics and sleazy pro-abortion song as a lighthearted way to deal with such a scary experience.
• Recap.Gunnerkrigg Court Chapter 10 Doctor Disaster: In-Universe, Kat tells Annie to stop thinking too hard about the simulation and just enjoy herself.
• Recap.Here There Be Gerblins Chapter Six: In-Universe. Killian advices this of the PCs.
• Recap.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic S 5 E 15 Scare Master: In-universe, Rainbow Dash starts pointing out what things are making scary sounds in the corn maze. Applejack scolds her to "try and keep up the illusion."
• Recap.Star Trek Voyager S 2 E 21 Deadlock: In-Universe by Captain Janeway when Harry suffers an existential crisis about whether he's really Harry Kim or just a copy of him, leading Janeway to tell him that he's real enough, and add the following zinger:
  Janeway: We're Starfleet officers, Harry. Weird is part of the job.
• Rick and Morty: In-Universe example. For every disturbing thing Morty sees or experiences, Rick's advice is "Don't think about it!"
• Suede's Pokémon Journey: In-Universe in his review of "Holiday Hi-Jynx", Suede recites it enough that it almost becomes a Madness Mantra.
• The Way of the Metagamer: In-Universe. Specifically cited here. Appears once more during the MST3K crossover.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

So as far as you can tell, less than 1% of the wicks have an In-Universe tag. I... honestly expected a few more. That's ~23% if we're just looking at medium wicks, which we're not because recap was included.

Edited by crazysamaritan on May 27th 2021 at 12:00:23 PM

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

As far as Google can tell. Google leaves lots of things out so I wouldn't take this as a quantitative analysis.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Another In-Universe example on Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney – Spirit of Justice. I originally added it, but Synchronicity added "Invoked."

• MST3K Mantra: Invoked. The bonus Asinine Attorney mini-cases begin with the judge (the Khura'in one in Phoenix's, the Japanifornia one in Apollo's) saying not to take them too seriously, since they didn't happen in our world, and just enjoy them for what they are.

I don't see why we can't have in-universe examples of MS T3k Mantra, but I don't a meaningful difference between MST3K Mantra and Bellisario's Maxim.

Keet cleanup

Crownerables?

1. Merge MST3K Mantra and Bellisario's Maxim (mutually exclusive with retooling, but not with making Fan Speak)
2. Make MST3K Mantra a Definition Only Fan Speak page (mutually exclusive with retooling, but not with merging)
3. Retool into a trope about the work saying "it's just a show" In-Universe

Anything else?

I think #1 should be "Redirect MST3K Mantra to Bellisario's Maxim" because the only reason it is incompatible with a retool is that we shouldn't be changing that page based on a TRS thread for this page. Otherwise I'm fine with the options.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I agree.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

I see no reason why we'd need a separate thread to change Bellisario's Maxim if this thread finds it to be a duplicate of MST3K Mantra. I'd rather redirect Bellisario's Maxim to MST3K Mantra, as the latter is more widely used on this wiki.

Edited by rjd1922 on Jun 22nd 2021 at 11:45:52 AM

Keet cleanup

Reminder that MST3K Mantra has the higher inbound count by a significant margin and is wicked more. It seems to be the more recognized term.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

Maybe we can keep option 1 as is for now and discuss the specifics of the merge if it gets consensus?

I personally think that if you make the fan speak there's no need to merge. Fan speak pages are about the term and their origins more so than usage, so overlapping usage is not an issue (indeed, many of our fan speak pages overlap with tropes).

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"

Is making both MST3K Mantra and Bellisario's Maxim Fan Speak outside this thread's scope, since the former is what this thread is for? If we made both of them definition-only, overlap between the two wouldn't be a big deal, and wicks would be limited to references to the term (but not full-fledged examples) for anything that gets converted into a Fan Speak page by this thread (if that ends up happening).

Edit: I checked and I already covered the definition-only thing last month... eh.

Edit: And I also already mentioned being in favor of making both Fan Speak but keeping them separate, but I forgot about that. I'm still fine with that, regardless.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 23rd 2021 at 5:08:57 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

x4 Reminder that MST3K Mantra (first used in 1988) is two years older than Bellisario's Maxim (first used in 1990).

Edited by Nen_desharu on Jun 23rd 2021 at 12:25:09 PM

Kirby is awesome.

I agree that overlapping definitions wouldn't be a problem if both were made Fan Speak.

Can a mod weigh in on whether or not we can make BM Fan Speak in this thread?

Only if that page is tagged, with a note added with an appropriate edit summary.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

What do you mean by tagged? If you mean adding a "This trope is under discussion at the Trope Repair Shop" banner, both pages already have one.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

I meant exactly that.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman