My Little Pony: Cleanup Is Magic

Right.

So, while this really isn't a place for a characterization debate, it's important to understand why the fandom feels this way about the finale. For a lot of us, we can't just accept it as "Discord meant well" and move on. It feels like his actions were outright villainous, or at the very least, criminally negligent, and goes against seasons of character development all for the sake of a really poorly written plot twist.

Honestly, I feel like Discord, reckless and foolish as he was, is getting a little too much hate for his actions in season 9. He's done far worse in his time, after all, with far worse motivations.

Did he sorely underestimate the villainous trio? Yes. But he's always had a habit of letting his ego get the best of him, so I wouldn't exactly call it "character regression". On that note, he may not have even expected them to actually get Grogar's Bell, and only sent them to keep them busy.

As was already pointed out, his plan in season 9 is essentially a greatly scaled-up repeat of his plan from "Best Gift Ever". Since that plan worked out just fine, he no doubt assumed he could do the same thing again, with similar success.

Edited by Bluecatcinema on May 11th 2022 at 1:01:17 AM

He did not underestimate them. He outright gave them the one weapon that could defeat him because he Took a Level in Dumbass. And there is nothing ever implying he did not know the bell could work, otherwise he could have just made a fake bell. This is nothing but poorly toughtout Fan Wank.

I don't think that's the main reason for the backlash, I think it's because Discord essentially gave up on reforming the villain trio and pushed them into committing even worse crimes. And his motive about boosting Twilight's confidence never made sense to me. Twilight had been defeating threats to Equestria for the past eight seasons, so why would Discord think she lacked confidence in that?

It's a combination of the two, I think. People were outraged that a character who'd been developing into a helpful ally for several seasons would do something so stupid as to encourage three villains to attack people and go after the one artifact they needed to be powerful. They were also upset that he got off scot-free and got to decide the extremely controversial punishment for the trio when their actions were entirely his fault.

He's been criticized for everything we've been discussing- characterization issues, a poorly written plot twist, stupid and nonsensical actions, and unwarranted forgiveness and power at the end.

And honestly, whether or not people here agree with these criticisms isn't something we should be discussing, anyway.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 11th 2022 at 4:43:51 AM

See the thing is i do agree that the twist and finale overall has its issues but I don't think its the worst thing ever, it actually makes a lot of sense on paper and i'd even argue the writers knew some issues fans might have about it. Discord has been trying to test twilight throughout out the series, he is a spirit of chaos who has a twisted moral center, they have every character call him out for it and him take action to make up for it, also had tried to have the trio come off villainous enough to have them be seen as irredeemable and to please the fans who were tired of all the villain redemptions.

While he went alot more extreme than before with his testing. Ironically, this is the time that that he completely wholeheartedly was trying to help. While its not a good idea for the sake of a redemption arc, i do think it does show how much him and twilight's relationship has grown so I don't see it as character regression completely. In general in s9 in every episode he was in, the writers made sure that he was trying to help his friends even when he messed up showing his growth but the twist and him punishing the trio for crimes, that he is at least partly reasonable for threw all that to trash for many. So all this shows that in a bit of https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Laconic/Irony like discord they certainly had good intentions but made most mad about it.

Even though im sure the trio would have done it if they escaped anyways. Discord picked them because they were still unrepentant villains, u can argue that is fan wank but to support this he doesn't mind control starlight or some other reformed character to be apart of his plan and they had a choice to not attack after they were out of the hands of "grogar". So for that I do still think the trio still apply for Draco in Leather Pants territory even if they are unintellionally sympathetic.

No, seriously, we really should be dropping this debate soon. It's off topic, and this is a cleanup thread, not an MLP discussion thread. The point remains that a large amount of people in the fanbase found the twist problematic and feel like Discord was ruined - that's what matters.

your right maybe we should just leave it be for now

Agreed.

Again, from From YMMV.My Little Pony The Movie 2017:

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Queen Novo was the least popular new main character◊ despite being the Big Good. She was meant to be an benevolent queen initially refusing to fight the Storm King due to not wanting to endanger her people or risking her powerful Pearl of Transformation falling into the wrong hands, but would have been persuaded to help fight if not for Twilight attempting to steal the Pearl due to being too quick to lose trust in Novo. But due to them being the first thing to come to Princess Celestia's mind when the Storm King invaded^note it was written before the gained other possible allies in the series, many thought Novo was an ally under expectation or obligation to aid the heroes only to be inexplicably distrustful toward them (The Stormy Road to Canterlot would justify that but it's canonically suspect and not alluded to in The Movie). The Storm King and his army being defeated by thirteen ragtag individuals without the Pearl made Novo and her people look excessively cowardly for running and hiding rather than standing and fighting against such seemingly easy to beat foe. Even many who defend her actions as pragmatically justifiable felt Novo's lack of positive contribution left her and her people (save Princess Skystar who Novo grounded over) having done nothing to deserve their happy ending after abandoning Equestria in its hour of need.

The "and her people look" and "and her people (save Princess Skystar who Novo grounded over)" were removed by BrianKT (who's had problems over UU entries) citing ""And her people" is too much of a negative generalization. Who is the bigger jerk, the jerk, or the jerk that follows?"

While I agree it should be unfair for fans to hold her people in contempt for Novo's inaction, I have seen fans do it (particularly S8 where it was seen as giving Neighsay unintentionally valid reason not to trust them). Is that the case? Or is it not widespread enough to count? Or should it only count after The Movie for what I described?

Fanon.My Little Pony

• Frequently, Derpy has a daughter named Dinky Hooves, a purple unicorn with a blonde mane that first appeared in "Winter Wrap Up", and is a Good Parent to Dinky and [[Mama Bear extremely protective of her. Occasionally her daughter will be the child of either Pokey Pierce, his Palette Swap Ponet (who is also a purple unicorn with a blonde mane), or another background pony. If shipped with Doctor Whooves, she'll be the adopted daughter of his. Although the show itself seems to insist quite clearly that Dinky Doo is the daughter of Carrot Top/Golden Harvest and Written Script, fans of the show insist that Dinky is Derpy's daughter. Mostly, it's because Dinky looks so much like a younger Derpy. The fact that Derpy and Carrot/Golden have been canonically declared roommates cools things down a bit.

I looked everywhere and the closest thing I could find was this stating Derpy spent time with them. I'll cut the roommates part as unsubstantiated unless I hear anything/have a source.

This sounds more like outright fanfiction than fanon to me. Especially since there is a clear canon relationship already.

Edited by Redmess on May 15th 2022 at 11:40:58 AM

This is the "canon" relationship in question. Considering they've had no such interactions outside those scenes, Dinky's had more interaction with Amethyst in the Sisterhooves events, this seem below the level of confirming them family. (This is when background ponies were living props without any character consistency. And it's well below the bar for canon relationships.) It's still more official than Derpy and Dinky being related so keeping in that regard.

Anyway my question is is there official statement Derpy and Carrot are roommates? I'll cut it otherwise as I looked and found nothing on it.

Here's an issue I have found on the Unintentionally Unsympathetic page on Animated Films

• Tempest Shadow becomes much less of a Tragic Villain when one examines the Expanded Universe, which reveal that her childhood friends didn't really abandon or betray her after her after she lost her horn, confirm that she enjoyed subjugating the Storm King's enemies, and that the armies she led explicitly killed Capper's entire family. In the film, her change of heart is also motivated not by a crisis of conscience, but because it didn't occur to her that Storm King wouldn't keep his end of the bargain after he had no more need of her, and Twilight decided to save her, her mortal enemy, rather than grab the staff and save all of Equestria, effectively validating her sense of entitlement. It's hard to take a supposed redemption seriously when it likely amounted to her learning "Friendship means other creatures will do anything to help me and only me, even if I treat them like manure."

The issue, I think, is that it contradicts the entries shown here

• Jerkass Realization: Even when she does become good, she's still pretty abrasive and holds a grudge. She does mellow out when she meets her old friend Glitter Drops once more and the latter saves her from an Ursa Minor. She realizes that if she did not go and get the ball, she would've made one of her friends do so. She found the idea too terrible to consider and realizes she would've always chosen for herself to go... and making her realize just how much of a jerk she was being.

• Wheelchair Woobie: After the Ursa Minor incident, Tempest's old friends tried to include her in their activities. But as she struggled to control her magic with her broken horn, watching her suffer became too much for them to handle. This, combined with them losing contact with her after washing out of magic school, ultimately led her to think that they had abandoned her in her hour of need.

Edited by BrianKT on May 24th 2022 at 12:57:59 PM

Of the two entries you point to, the second simply expands on what the Unintentionally Unsympathetic entry says, and the first doesn't negate the point of the entry, or at least not all of them;

Yes, she eventually realizes how much of a jerk she was, but that's well after her official redemption and not in the film, and even besides that, a Tragic Villain, or at least the breed she's clearly intended to be, has terrible things happen to them that serve as a Cynicism Catalyst; but if said events were only a horrible betrayal and proof that friendship or morality are worthless through a self-centered and cynical lens, it appears she never needed a catalyst to become evil, and the supposed tragedy falls flat.

The other two points of the entry are "She enjoyed leading an army that kills entire families, and is thus far worse than she appears or her backstory could justify," and "her redemption moment only happened because she was a moron, especially from her cynical POV, and when her selfishness was validated," both I'd call valid reasons to call a character's sympathy undermined; remember, this is a YMMV trope.

Well, okay. But the part that reads "It's hard to take a supposed redemption seriously when it likely amounted to her learning "Friendship means other creatures will do anything to help me and only me, even if I treat them like manure."" implies that Tempest still acted like an Entitled Bitch and continued to mistreat her friends, which I did not see actually happen by the end of the comic.

"An army that kills entire families" is implication at best, by the way. The worst we actually see in the movie is them turning ponies into stone, which is very much reversible as long as they don't break, and the Storm King seems perfectly happy not to do so.

You're right that she became a true hero afterwards, but her actual Heel–Face Turn in the film can seem hollow and self-serving. Perhaps I should re-word the ending to clarify that what's implied didn't happen, even if it would seem the logical result.

In the Nightmare Knights storyline in the comics, Capper reveals he lost his family when the Storm King's armies invaded.

Edited by Ansongc2000 on May 26th 2022 at 3:14:12 AM

Ah, I see. The entry should mention that, then.

Comic #96 has Capper state that he lost his family before the Storm Kings invasion. His claim he lost his family Nightmare Knight didn't say it was due to the invasion an in a context where it's not trustworthy. But there's an argument the army logically can be assumed to have caused casualties at some point.

The "reveal that her childhood friends didn't really abandon or betray her" doesn't count as it was intentionally unsympathetic such she realized she was wrong. But that does support your argument her redemption in the movie was lacking if she only had such moral epiphany afterward.

UU entries also need to state why they were supposed to be sympathetic despite the circumstances. And the last part seems to be saying her cynicism was justified which is the opposite problem.

I'll change her entry to this unless I hear anything.

• Tempest Shadow was supposed to be a Tragic Villain who's ostracization over losing her horn and thus control of her magic since childhood led her to join and lead the Storm King's army in desperation for his promised fix. But she was shown to enjoy subjugating others and attacked and enslaved her homeland who approval was her reason for wanting her horn fixed. Tempest's intended justification was her Freudian Excuse causing her to resent the notion of relying on others, but she was unironically relying on the Storm King to honor their bargain such she was surprised he instead betrayed her. This caused several to see her redemption as undercut by it being due to not getting what she wanted out of her ill-thought-out evildoing and Twilight Sparkle saving her as opposed to any moral epiphany or remorse over the nations worth of beings she'd hurt. It's only in the semi-canon Expanded Universe comics released after the fact where she undergoes self-reflection and shown to become The Atoner for it.

Any reason the Movie's UU entries shouldn't be under UnintentionallyUnsympathetic.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic given it's the same series and continuity? (UnintentionallyUnsympathetic.Pokemon covers the whole franchise even different continuities.)

Anyone notice how the unintellionally unsympathetic trope is a trend when it comes to mlp pages

Maybe that's the consequence of being a series so big on forgiveness. There's that many more times it drops the ball. With that any reason not to move all the FIM media (the Movie, EG, comics) to the FIM UU page?

UnintentionallyUnsympathetic.Animated Films

• Sunset Shimmer's Evil Plan from the first movie resulted in her transforming into a demon, brainwashing Canterlot High, and trying to conquer Equestria and murder those in her way. This was meant to be her being corrupted into something much worse than she was normally willing to act; thus her shock, horror, revulsion, and Heel–Face Turn after her defeat. But, while Sunset never used physical violence prior (even letting Spike go when could have pulled a Hostage for MacGuffin), she had been such an Alpha Bitch through the whole movie that said Pet the Dog came off more as arrogance than anything deserving redemption, and she was clearly intending to be a conqueror with the power from the Element of Magic, making it unclear exactly what she did in her demon form was too far for her. And according to her origin-story comic, Sunset was Spoiled Brat for quite a while before then, only coming to the human world when she threw a tantrum that Celestia wouldn't make her a princess, making Sunset look even more petty. Thus, most found her not particularly deserving of forgiveness, and many suspected she was faking remorse to get off easier. The creators used an Author's Saving Throw in Rainbow Rocks to address this, since she was shown to have genuinely become a better person under the tutelage of the Humane 5; meanwhile, the rest of the school was just as unforgiving to Sunset, all while putting her through constant abuse and reminders of what a terrible person she was, making her Heel–Face Turn feel more sympathetic. The fact that she went through her almost complete personality inversion from power-hungry and downright cruel Manipulative Bitch to a total Nice Girl off-screen, however, can still rub viewers the wrong way.

I intend to cut the last part as that she had become one of the most popular characters in the series and the fandom who heatedly accepted/embraced her redemption and view it as the best in the franchise means this opinion is too fringe to count as practically none feel this way about her. Complaint that audiences should see them such but don't is not this. The complaints about the abruptness can be moved to before her redemption or is a separate issue that has not meaningly hurt her sympathy with fans.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on May 29th 2022 at 2:04:08 AM

Well, it is a valid complaint some people have made, but ultimately she became a very popular character nonetheless.

Yes. That she/her redemption are overwhelmingly popular in spite of that issue means she's not this over that as (despite personally agreeing her redemption was overhyped due to such) not enough people feel that way. The issue may be moved to something else that fits. Maybe move to Character Derailment as a rare positive example?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on May 29th 2022 at 2:12:09 AM

I think that makes sense, yes. People don't like her because of her redemption so much as they love her for who she became after that.