The Sociopath cleanup

Right. So then Klavice pointing out whether or not a character is a CM is irrelevant to the actual discussion, and I had to ask about it because it's a potential warning sign of this becoming The CM Thread, Part 2.

If a character's status as a CM is irrelevant to them being The Sociopath, it's not worth bringing up as a factor for discussion.

Ah, okay. My mistake. Was just worrying you also might have misread my initial post. Sorry.

Can someone still love someone and be the Sociopath? Because it looked like from what you said they can't.

If they can, maybe Keyes can stay. He's a Misanthrope Supreme but I'm not sure if he goes that extra mile into The Sociopath, especially when it's shown a character doesn't have to be a CM in order to count.

Pretty sure legitimately loving someone would disqualify someone from this trope.

Right. One of the defining factors of Sociopathy is the lack of any genuine love for anyone else. They just don't really experience it, but it can be faked.

Hence why I took Killmonger off the MCU Sociopath page a few months back because he genuinely cared about his father.

Edited by k410ren on Oct 11th 2020 at 9:59:40 AM

Nope, or at least, not in the way we understand love. Also, regarding the Marvel MCU sociopath page, that ... really looks like it can use some more cleaning. Haven't watched anything past Spiderman: Homecoming, but Hela's entry doesn't make her sound so much like a sociopath as it does just make her sound like a really bad person.

Edited by Stellarvore on Oct 11th 2020 at 11:02:50 AM

Thanos is on the list, and while he definitely exhibits sociopathic traits, I wouldn't call him one because he genuinely does love his daughter Gamora. Oh, he's a terrible father who emotionally abuses her and ultimately is willing to sacrifice her to obtain the Soul Stone. But such a sacrifice clearly devastates him, and the Infinity War ends with him reflecting on how much he had to lose in order to achieve "balance". It's a deluded form of love, but it is genuine on Thanos' end.

Here's his current entry:

Anybody else want to weigh in?

There's an entry trying to peg Greg from Literature.Diary Of A Wimpy Kid as a sociopath. I think they might be reading a bit deep into this for a children's book series.

Characters.Diary Of A Wimpy Kid

• The Sociopath:
  • His Lack of Empathy. For instance, despite being bullied by his older brother Rodrick and knowing how painful it is, he treats Rowley more or less the same way. See Hypocrite above. In addition, despite being an outcast, Greg feels no empathy for Fregley and looks down on him. It’s even worse when he only hangs with him for his own personal gain. The first instance was to make Rowley jealous and the second time was to mold Fregley into another Rowley.
  • Greg is a pathological liar, often coming up with stuff that's completely false. For instance, in Double Down, he doesn't eat his apple and his mom figures it out. Greg then comes up with a big lie about how a bully ate his fruit and sent rude letters. He also lied about his reading abilities in the very first book to get into an easier class. He's also a manipulator, seen through his treatment of Rowley. In Dog Days, he tries to trick Rowley into all of the work.
  • Need for stimulation: A mild example, Greg is quite addicted to video games and TV, and finds himself bored without them. He also camped outside a gaming store with Rowley
  • Grandiose sense of self: Greg thinks of himself highly and is has an ego larger than Jupiter. As mentioned in Narcissist above, this is why he keeps a journal, because of expectations of being rich and famous. Hell, his expectations of being rich and famous in general are a good example of this and expects to have a reality TV show in middle school. He even claims he’ll have his own national holiday in the same vein as Dr. King.

Hela has the self-worth down given that she wants to rule all realms; she does convince that one Asgardian to work for her (though it wasn't like he had much of a choice in the matter since she was slaughtering several of them anyway). Obviously she had no remorse for anything she had done. Emotional attachments...that was actually slightly a debate back when she was being proposed on the CM forum as to whether she truly cared for her Fenris Wolf but for the most part it leans towards seeing it as a tool that she doesn't react to when he gets killed.

^^^ I'd say cut.

Any objections for cutting these from Anime & Manga?

As for Death Note, while Light definitely fits the bill, and possibly Ryuk, I'm not sure if the other two (Higuchi and Demegawa) qualifies.

Edited by Adept on Oct 12th 2020 at 12:14:27 AM

I'm fine with the decision on those.

Definitely a cut. Aside from reading way too much into it, he's got Jerk with a Heart of Gold and Pet the Dog listed on his character sheet.

My problem was more with the ambiguous wording in the writeup than anything. Though given that she might or might not have actually been upset over the death of the Fenris wolf ... I'm taking a bit of a middle ground.

I'm okay with cutting them.

Feel this is also a good time to address that The Sociopath should be intentional examples only. For instance, Griffin from Red Zone Cuba or Bella from the Twilight saga. I'm okay with the Unfortunate Implications entry on the latter's YMMV page, but it should be clear that the portrayal was completely intentional and not just bad writing.

Edited by Stellarvore on Oct 11th 2020 at 11:23:17 AM

So make it In-Universe Examples Only?

Edited by PlasmaPower on Oct 11th 2020 at 2:16:04 PM

You can cut Greg's entry, as well as the Ambiguous Disorder entry.

Yeah, pretty much.

So this is a writeup I did a few years ago for the TV version of Obadiah Hakeswill from Sharpe. The book version might count, but I've only seen the TV movies. Thoughts?

• Sharpe has Obadiah Hakeswill, the Arch-Enemy of Sharpe and the reason why he was condemned to 2,000 lashes (of which only 200 were given). Lack of Empathy? Check, just ask Sally Clayton's children, after he raped and murdered their mother, as well as any unfortunate soldier he bullies into staying quiet about his abusive conduct. Consummate Liar and Manipulative Bastard? Double check, as he makes himself appear disciplined in front of superior officers and rapes the wives and girlfriends of the rank-and-file, while getting those who are wise to him in trouble, like Harper, who he framed for the theft of an aristocrat's wife's portrait, condemning him to 100 lashes. Need for stimulation? If there's a pretty woman in the episode, he'll try to rape her and if she has a husband, he'll threaten him too. Narcissist? He believes himself invincible right up to his death. He's even worse in the novels, where his crimes include raping a young girl... when he was 12.

Edited by k410ren on Oct 12th 2020 at 12:44:06 PM

If anything, I think it's a little too wordy.

Not really sure how to parse it down; I primarily based it off the attributes on the main The Sociopath page and how Hakeswill fit each one. I could start with the last line about the novels' version.

Can I cut this from the anime and manga page. It's way too general and a list of names.

• Since it's a manga about pirates, One Piece is full of sociopaths. Kuro, Morgan, Krieg, Arlong, Eneru, Spandam, etc... It's actually harder to find a villainous character who's NOT a sociopath than one who is.

So...apparently all pirates are sociopaths by default? Wat?

The best thing is the main hero's are pirates too so Its a hilariously weird thing to say.

To be fair, Sociopathic Hero exists.

Well yeah but none of them qualify as that.

Okay, so I removed Thanos from the Marvel Cinematic Universe page. I think most of the examples on the page are alright (I've admittedly not seen much of the shows).

If anyone else has any concerns, feel free to bring them up.