Audience-Alienating Premise cleanup

It was mostly the tepid reception that I thought was the AAP.

That is very much not what AAP is for. What you're talking about is closer to So Okay, It's Average.

There's an entry for AAP under Dokapon Kingdom I wanted to run through here.

• Audience-Alienating Premise: The story mode, while definitely fun to play with other people, is also rather impractical to finish for the simple fact that most people don't really have the time to get together in-person week after week to get through a game. This is perhaps best exemplified in The Runaway Guys' infamous Let's Play of it, which went on for 144 episodes over 4 years simply because it was so hard to commit time to it. Thankfully, the game has other modes that can be over and done with in a single session.

While the Dokapon series is niche, I'm thinking this isn't really a game with an audience-alienating premise because the audience it does attract does want the sort of game where you play what is effectively a multiplayer turn-based JRPG for 20-30 hours with friends while you take turns trolling each other. Ironically, I've also heard from many new fans of Dokapon Kingdom that The Runaway Guys' playthrough of the game was what inspired them to even consider buying the released Switch version of Dokapon Kingdom in the first place.

All that said, does this fit for AAP? Need to be rewritten?

I'd like to suggest this trope for Mishima A Life In Four Chapters. Ther main page even says:

Granted its more an Acclaimed Flop as critics loved it, but I can I add such?

Hey, dudes. Would you say "You Can't Handle the Booth" has an AAP because it's the Family Guy characters giving commentary over an episode (often blocking the audio of the episode) that is only accessible in full on the DVD? It's the worst rated episode of Family Guy on IM Db so it doesn't seem particularly well-liked. IDK, I think abandoning even the pretence of an Excuse Plot for fourth-wall breaking gags and having (at least initially) the perception of "wasting an episode" probably played into the episode's hatedom.

I don’t think we allow the listing of specific episodes of a longer series.

Edited by DDRMASTERM on Jul 6th 2023 at 7:23:36 AM

In line with my previous post on an edit by this same person, I have one to review from Homecoming Saga.

• Audience-Alienating Premise: The series is based on the writings of Joseph Smith. As a result, it can alienate a lot of people.
  • Even if you don't really know anything about the Church of Latter Day Saints, Christians as a whole are really on the fence about their status as Christians, and this results in a lot of friction.
  • Then you have their checkered history with race and polygamy. If you know even a little bit about the church, you know about that, and learning that an author is trying to whitewash the books that justified and started all that can be whiffy.
  • And if you know a lot about the church, learning that Card is playing all of Smith's racism and misogyny, alongside the church's occasional genocide, painfully straight and trying to present it as good and justified (all of the fake history Joseph Smith made up is true!, forced marriages are good, actually! Yes, the Diggers [brown-skinned people] are pretty much all evil, but there are some good ones), whoof.

This example is clearly longer than it needs to be. And that first sub-bullet is a rather Blatant violation of ROCEJ, as it's another case of shoehorning commentary on the religion where it doesn't belong and it's a No True Scotsman debate this wiki should not be wading in on. As for the rest, it's mostly a wordier retread of their Alvin Maker example, except with the extra loaded claim of "occasional genocide". Maybe they're referring to the infamous Mountain Meadow Massacre or involvement in "Manifest Destiny"? Either way, such claims should be going through the process to be added to the Mormonism page (which lists the former incident) if they can back it up, not being spread on a random related page. Also, for the purposes of this trope, calling detailed plot beats, no matter how justifiably they can and should be criticized, is not part of the "Premise".

It honestly could work with just the initial bullet, but to condense the example I'd word it like this:

• Audience-Alienating Premise: It's a Sci-fi reinterpretation of Mormonism's gospel The Book of Mormon. Given the religion's controversial reputation, this makes it a very tough sell to most audiences.

If anybody has further input, please let me know.

Added.

Edited by DDRMASTERM on Jul 20th 2023 at 8:45:52 AM

Sounds reasonable. Although I don't like how small the example ends up being, it's still better than the previous one.

The small example still has enough context to work. Maybe tack on a brief, nondescript mention that the reason it's a tough sell for audiences is because of the religion's controversial reputation, but that might be unnecessary. We don't need excessive plot details cuz the premise is the issue.

From Video Games, on Rizline:

Even if it were expected for rhythm games to be freeware (which the example notes is rare), I don't think a monetization plan counts as a premise.

If anything, that would be Overshadowed by Controversy. It also feels petty to be make a stink over a $1 price tag, though it at least explains why.

Edit: Also, as you said, a price tag does not Exactly count as a “premise”.

Later edit: that was a bad word choice.

Edited by DDRMASTERM on Aug 29th 2023 at 1:15:10 PM

I was redirected here from "Is This An Example?", so reposting:

In YMMV.Wandering Son: The series portrays puberty and LGBT issues — especially transgender ones — quite seriously. This puts off many people (mostly cis heterosexuals) since it's outside of their comfort zone or they're so used to comedies about the subject. And even people wanting to read the story for its transgender themes get turned off by the revelation near the end that one of the transgender characters actually isn't trans.

Is "this work turns off cishets for being about queer themes" a valid example of AAP?

Edited by TroperNo9001 on Aug 22nd 2023 at 4:15:42 PM

No.

That's just people not wanting to watch a work that's not designed for them in the first place, and the twist at the end isn't a "premise". Cut it.

And all that's putting aside that the manga ran for eleven years and got an anime adaptation.

Clearly, an audience exists for the work.

Alright, I removed it.

Found this on YMMV.Suicide For Hire:

• Audience-Alienating Premise: The protagonists are a pair of supposed euthanizers advertising their service in their local high school. What they are actually doing is much worse.

The work was previously listed in the Webcomics folder, which was cut since success and failure for non-commercial media is much harder to measure without resorting to complaining.

So any AAP examples on webcomics' YMMV pages (or other similar cases, like fanfics or web video) should be cut, unless the work is locked behind a paywall.

I cut the example (along with the one on YMMV.Vegan Artbook) and cited this thread in the edit reasons.

(And yes, they aren't locked behind paywalls.)

Edited by OmegaPC777 on Sep 8th 2023 at 4:12:34 AM

Just a few minutes ago, I tried adding Velma as having an audience-alienating premise on the grounds that "Turns out that not a lot of people are going to like a Scooby-Doo Animated Shock Comedy without the titular character, instead starring a side character rewritten into a Designated Hero", and it got removed just as quickly. Which got me thinking, considering that both critical and fan reviews were quite negative, and there was a considerable backlash to reports of it getting renewed, does it count?

Regarding this one -

• The Book of Boba Fett has gone down as one of the most-panned Star Wars TV shows. People disinterested in Boba's flat and easily-disposed depiction in the Original Trilogy wouldn't have any incentive to watch a show with his name in the title, especially one that doesn't elaborate his motivations strongly enough for the average viewer to care if he accomplishes his desires. People who admire earlier efforts to flesh out Boba wouldn't enjoy this show softening up his character, to the extent that he needs others to win his battles for him. The crossover with The Mandalorian also disappointed Boba fans by reducing him to a minor character in Din Djarin's story, then giving Boba a "rematch" against someone he only fought in unfinished episodes of Star Wars: The Clone Wars.

The crossover and the rematch weren't part of the premise or promoted in advance. And I am unconvinced that there's no audience for a Boba Fett story given his successful return in the Mandalorian and long history as an Ensemble Dark Horse.

Views?

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 25th 2023 at 7:44:22 PM

I think it's because Velma wasn't disliked for the premise, as the idea of a Velma-centric spinoff was welcomed upon announcement. I also think the lack of Scooby isn't part of the premise (though it fits Tainted by the Preview). It's mostly the execution of the characterization that turned people off.

Yeah remove that.

Yeah from what I have seen most are okay with the premise, but feel like Velma's execution is very lacking to say the least.

Edited by Bullman on Nov 25th 2023 at 1:48:21 PM

I understand now.

Had posted this a few days ago in the Audience Alienating Era cleanup (goddamn me and my habit of reading diagonally) and only just now do I notice this is the correct thread. Anyway, I'm questioning some recent additions to the audience alienating video game pages:

• The Atari Jaguar CD. How do you try and save your last ditch failing console, and with it your company? With a $150^note $295 in 2023 dollars CD-ROM add-on! Add-on systems are this trope to the portion of the population that doesn't own the parent console to begin with, but the Sega CD being a modest success (though not nearly as much of one as Sega thought it would be) and the TurboGrafix-CD selling well in Japan proved the concept can work if the parent console is also selling well. The Jaguar moved only 150,000 units at most, to give you an idea of how awful that sales figure is that's roughly the same amount of units as the Amiga CD 32, which never got a full release outside of the United Kingdom, and the hated Sega 32 X (listed below) outsold the Jaguar by a 4 to 1 margin. Sales figures of the Jaguar CD are unconfirmed but it's believed that no more than 15,000 were produced, probably less than 10,000 were sold and many were returned as defective. Only 11 games were released. Thanks to the awful build quality and terrible sales the rare working Jaguar CD can fetch up to $1,000 on auction sites.

• As CD-ROM technology started becoming cheaper jack-of-all-trades "infotainment" systems, basically budget PCs that could load games like a console, became all the rage among electronics companies. That gave us the Three DO Interactive Multiplayer, the Philips C Di, and the VIS^note Video Information System. The first two managed to scrape together enough sales to avoid this trope, there's a reason the third one doesn't have its own page. While all three of those consoles were hamstrung by a $700 MSRP (even 30 years later consoles don't cost that much) the 3DO and CD-i at least made the attempt to get games released. Not good games in the latter's case, but they tried. 70 titles were released for the VIS but only one could be really considered a console game: Links: The Challenge of Golf, which was ported all over the place. Everything else is point-and-click edutainment software that will make you wish you were using a mouse instead of a controller. Not that you would have known the VIS existed in the first place as it was only sold through Radio Shack (Tandy was a Radio Shack house brand), many Radio Shack employees later recounted that they knew the VIS was a lost cause (dubbing it the "Virtually Impossible to Sell") and didn't even waste their time trying to push it. Only 11,000 were sold and many collectors don't even know it exists, and many of the ones that do really don't care since everything released for the VIS was ported from something else.

• The Genesis Nomad. While on paper it seemed like a great idea to have a portable version of the Sega Genesis, several aspects of it were alienating: The short battery life (six AA batteries would last about an hour or so — if that), the bulky size, and being out around when Genesis games stopped being made (released around the time of fifth-generation consoles like the Sega Saturn and Sony PlayStation). The handheld was a flop, selling around one million units, most at heavy discounts (peanuts compared to the Game Gear's 11 million) and disappeared shortly after release.^note You could arguably add the TurboExpress, which was a portable TurboGrafx-16 released all the way back in 1990, to this list as well. Particularly in the U.S., where there TG-16 flopped to begin with. Considering the rather eye-watering $250 sticker price (about $575 in 2023 dollars) NEC knew that it was a niche product for wealthy gamers (or gamers with wealthy parents), and it still managed to outsell the Nomad by a half million units. Tellingly no one else would try a portable version of a home console until Nintendo decided to combine their home and portable consoles into one device and released the Nintendo Switch in 2017, which outsold the combined sales of the Nomad and TurboExpress within a month of it being released.

The VIS entry doesn't even clearly establish what the "premise" is and the rest cites execution factors rather than the idea itself being unappealing. Making an add-on for such poorly-selling system is a stupid idea, but I doubt it was inherently unappealing to existing Jaguar owners. Likewise, "portable Sega Genesis" isn't necessarily a bad idea in itself, that it guzzle batteries is divorced from the basis sales pitch.

Generally I think this set of page has an issue with people just shoehorning any flop and citing execution-related factors rather than the pitch itself being a tough sell. ANYWAY, these safe for removal?