Removing complaining in Star Wars subpages

Re edit war discussed on the previous page. I actually wrote to Oraclethegreat in pm explaining that they should read the trope description rather than rely on the trope name, and got a reply in pm with an apology. I was about to restore the trope and then saw that they got suspended.

If I have a say in the matter, I wouldn't suspend them for now.

Edited by Asherinka on Jul 2nd 2020 at 12:38:11 PM

So, I just noticed something else I added is now gone: the novelization for The Force Awakens tries to explain why Rey can learn things so easily, and says she has a force power that lets her gain knowledge just by touching the person or thing in question. This raises a bunch of questions, such as, why is she seemingly the only one in the galaxy with this power? How come she doesn't tell anyone else about it? How did she get this ability? And, most importantly, why did she need to train with Luke at all when she could just touch him to gain all his knowledge and avoid wasting months training? I think this is still a vaild Voodoo Shark, though it might have been retconned by ''Rise Of Skywalker", which attributes her skill to being related to Palpatine.

Edited by Bootlebat on Jul 24th 2020 at 7:07:46 AM

~Bootlebat: As I stated in the edit reason, the TFA novelization doesn't say that. Since it doesn't say that, it doesn't raise those questions.

Calling the Cleanup Crew! I haven't gotten any responses to this discussion question about ~The Comic Storian re-adding Composite Character to Star Wars – Kylo Ren, who is not a composite character. I previously deleted it myself.

Here's what I said in the discussion:

Here's the entry itself:

I've been looking at the adaptation tropes to see if anyone fits the bill, but the closest one I can find is Adaptation Deviation or Adaptation Relationship Overhaul, seeing as:

• Kylo Ren is Han and Leia's son, who trained under Luke and turned to the dark side, but he doesn't have any siblings.
• He shares a name with Luke's son in the Legends continuity, but is in fact his nephew here.

The rest can be cut away. The mask (like Revan), troubling characterization, and being a renegade pupil of a Jedi are all reminiscent of Vader, as was all but stated outright in the films. And as for Arcann, I believe that this expansion to TOR was released after TFA, which means that, if anything, Arcann is based on Kylo Ren (or, y'know, Zuko).

The Sequel Trilogy is an original work, not an adaptation, so none of the adaptation tropes apply. Of course he has elements in common with other characters in the greater franchise: they all draw inspiration from the same handful of early works in the franchise. Of course his first name is the same as a character in another continuity: they were both named after Ben Kenobi.

There's nothing noteworthy or interesting here, just bog-standard shoehorning because people are keen to show off their encyclopedic knowledge of the franchise.

Thanks! I wonder what does apply to this, if anything, but it ain't adaptation tropes.

I'll look through other pages for similar misuses re: Star Wars— for instance, everything on CompositeCharacter.Film.

Edited by ImmiThrax on Aug 8th 2020 at 7:25:18 AM

Good point, High Crate.

TBH, I would have cut the entire thing for beginning with "appears to be [...]". My rule of thumb is that if you need to use the words "seems like X" or "appears like X", then 99,9% of the time it's not X.

Edited by RoundRobin on Aug 9th 2020 at 4:08:57 PM

Indeed, Examples Are Not Arguable and all that!

I went through a lot of the Star Wars related pages for Composite Character, but there are a few that have me unsure because they deal with things going from a Legends comic book to Clone Wars (like Darts D'Nar from the adaptation of the comics version of the "Slaves of the Republic" arc), or pre-Disney Zahn stuff to new canon. So, confusion on these:

• Star Wars – Asajj Ventress
• Star Wars – Dathomir — Mother Talzin
• Star Wars – Planets and Races — Mimban
• Star Wars – Unknown Regions — The Grysk Hegemony
• Star Wars – Zygerria — Darts D'Nar

Immi Thrax: in my opinion, and going by High Crate's, the examples of Ventress, Talzin and the Mimban are valid because they exist in both Legends and Canon and in the latter they occupy roles and/or have attributes of characters from the former that didn't make the jump. The Grysk, which are original to Canon, are not (they are obviously a replacement for the Yuuzhan Vong and the Vagaari, but that makes them an Expy of both, not a CC). I'm doubtful about Darts D'Nar, but I would say yes for now.

I've asked ~KJMackley to join us in discussing the add-delete-readd of Franchise Original Sin on YMMV.The Force Awakens.

The re-added example:

A different version of FOS was removed in 2018 after this ATT from ~Ferot_Dreadnaught ^note who I probably failed to ping cause underscore?, who also removed this one.

(FranchiseOriginalSin.Star Wars also contains multiple TFA entries.)

To be as succinct as possible, the definition of Franchise Original Sin is when a franchise (or subfranchise) has specific elements that either contribute to the positive reception or was seen as a mild flaw that didn't detract from the value of the work. Then a later work ends up more divisive for the same elements because it isn't handled as well or became more pronounced and detrimental to the quality.

In the example, The Force Awakens rode primarily on nostalgia and had numerous subplots that were left incomplete. The reception was largely positive because it was viewed as a new start to the franchise, nostalgia appealed to the fans and the dropped subplots were assumed to be Worldbuilding or Sequel Hooks that would be followed up on. Over the course of The Last Jedi and The Rise of Skywalker the nostalgia had diminishing returns and the lost subplots were either recycled or ignored.

My impression is FOS is when the work has thinks that stop what are flaws in later works from being flaws here. So if it’s retroactively seen as inexcusable flaws like TFA it’s not this.

FranchiseOriginalSin.Pokemon had examples from later the same season and two installment (games) ago that cleanup said cut as too recent. TFA seems to fit both those criteria to cut as number of works ago and part of the same "season" (the Sequel Trilogy).

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Sep 16th 2020 at 7:38:54 AM

Something "retroactively having flaws" is rooted in the trope. It tends to make it harder to watch the better work knowing how those issues impacted the franchise later on. It doesn't necessarily mean it's ruined, only you view it differently from that mindset.

And making a direct comparison to a trilogy of movies as being equivalent to one season of a tv show is kind of stretching it. One season usually doesn't take 6 years to make (or have the kind of creative talent turnaround it did). It would have been pushing things to list Franchise Original Sin after TLJ, but since ROS has been out for a while now with plenty of discussion and commentary we can assess the sequel trilogy as its own distinct thing like you would an entire television show.

If you're referring to rehashed plotlines, then you need look no further than Return of the Jedi. A new Death Star, a new poorly-characterized villain who overshadows the one we've come to know already... Every single complain people have about the sequel trilogy starts with ROTJ. And people still hold it on a pedestal along with the other OG trilogy movies.

Mind you, I'm not saying that ROTJ is bad or that the sequel trilogy is bad. I'm just pointing something out. Fact is that I love Star Wars with all their flaws and despite all the fan vitriol.

If you want to add Franchise Original Sin, compare TFA and the others with ROTJ.

Not sure poorly characterised is quite correct. Even in the first film appearance , Palpatine made enough off an impact to become popular. Which is why he got a larger role in the rest of the Franchise.

True. I think I phrased it poorly. At the time, Palpatine was just The Emperor, a villain whose Bad Boss cred was greater than Vader's ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am.") and whose backstory was a complete mystery. At this point, I'll reiterate that I loved Palpy to bits from the first time he appeared on the screen as a floating holographic head in TESB.

My point is that the seeds were planted all the way back in ROTJ. Through a combination of factors, Palpatine worked. Later installments in the franchise who tried to use the same or similar characters... not so much.

It wasn't about rehashing plotlines, but what people refer to as nostalgia baiting. Things like: referring to the Millennium Falcon as a piece of junk before its big reveal, accidentally triggering the holo chess set for a second, referencing the Kessel Run, making a trash compactor joke, etc. It's things that play more to the audience than the characters or the story.

The unfulfilled plotlines includes Rey's family, the destruction of the New Republic and the numerous Sequel Hooks like Finn in a coma, Kylo getting new training, Snoke having bigger plans, etc. Many viewed it as world building and setting up important plotlines that will pay off in the sequels, but after TLJ did little to nothing with it and ROS had to skew the complete other direction, their existence came to be setting up for disappointment.

These things are largely internal to the sequel movies, you can maybe point to some similar things in previous films but the sheer volume in the sequels makes them more notable.

Edited by KJMackley on Sep 17th 2020 at 1:42:14 AM

Memes.The Last Jedi

Personally, I think nothing of value would be lost.

EDIT: Also, whoever originated that last one does realise that all milk comes from mammaries, right??

Edited by DoktorvonEurotrash on Sep 30th 2020 at 5:20:06 AM

Found this on HilariousInHindsight.Star Wars Legends, does it look like stealth-complaining to anyone else?:

• Legacy: How Legacy is practically a Spiritual Antithesis of the Sequel Trilogy (if it's not frustrating instead of funny instead). While Legacy and the ST both reuse story beats of the OT (ex. an Empire and its darksiders are dominant again, there's a Darth Vader Clone, the Jedi were purged again), they go about it in quite different ways. The ST is criticized for being way too similar to the extent of making the OT feel pointless, while Legacy is not as extreme so that the OT still feels like it matters, and thus feels a lot more creative with its treatment of Star Wars tropes (ex. the factions are not as simple or binary copies of the OT ones, the Vader figure is quite distinct and fleshed out, and there are a lot more Jedi survivors).

I agree, it feels really subjective and bashy/gushy.

All milk comes from mammaries, but not all mammaries are tiddies.

Edited by HighCrate on Sep 30th 2020 at 6:16:26 AM

Deep thoughts in the Star Wars cleanup today