Character pages for Sonic The Hedgehog need work

Actually Sonic Chronicles not getting a sequel and possibly being no longer canon to the main line series actually predate the whole Screwed by the Lawyers thing.

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It never got a sequel due to A): the game not selling well and B): Bioware who made the game were bought out by EA mid-way through production (hence why the final game was rushed out) who subsequently shut down their handheld department. —- And whilst the game was intended to be canon to the rest of the series - specifically Chronicles is established to take place two years after Sonic and Doctor Eggman's final battle.

However the writers didn't actually bother to research the games correctly, instead they looked at the various cartoon and comic adaptations of the series and assumed that those continuities were the same as the games.

This led to them referencing and adding things that were unique to those separate continuities (eg. Tails has the potted plant remains of Cosmo from Sonic X, Eggman's base resembles the one from Sonic the Comic, Roboticization is mentioned, Sonic's portrayed as more of a jerk ala the Ova, Sonic the Comic and Sonic X and Echidna NPCs were almost included because the writers initially weren't aware that Knuckles the Echidna was supposed to be the last of his kind).

And their few attempts at directly reference the games would often be wrong and contradict the games (e.g. claiming that the plot of Sonic Adventure 2 was about Sonic and Shadow teaming up to fight Eggman, a mention that Amy Rose had Super-Speed because she was a hedgehog and that Knuckles was a direct descendant of Pachacamac - the character whose only child Tikal died at age 14).

So all of the above made it hard for fans to see it as canon to the games.

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As to whether Sega themselves consider the games Non-Canon, depends on who you ask:

• Ian Flynn, back when he was head-writer for the Archie Comic series, said that Chronicles was canon to the games but set a couple years after the mainline games (which is why, apart from the Screwed by the Lawyers problem, it was never referenced in the reboot that brought the comics closer to the games ^note Although he did acknowledge it be giving Knuckles a Gizoid ally called Fix-It, Chronicles having established that the Echidnas were responsible for having built Gemerl the Gizoid from Sonic Battle)

• Kevin Eva, the former community manager for Sega Europe said that due to it's troubled production and continuity errors should be taken as an Alternate Continuity, although he also said that what's considered canon is in constant flux due to whatever Sega decides.

• Aaron Webber, the current social media co-ordinator and licensor for Sega of America, said that Sega consider all the games canon including Sonic Chronicles.

Alright, it's a bit more complicated than I thought, but the game is still effectively non-canon due to the lawsuit barring SEGA from using anything from the game again.

It doesn't help that Sonic canon can be very... ambiguous, at times.

I'm fine with labeling Chronicles an Alternate Continuity and leaving its character tropes on its own character pages.

About Epsilon, I'm not sure if simply being faster on the draw makes it the fragile speedster. Mainly because the old Beta goes down faster, plus Delta and Epsilon don't do the "run & gun" routine.

Well, there are tropes for them. But why I have in mind covers the entire group, which obviously defeats the point in having individual entries for them.

Answer no master, never the slave Carry your dreams down into the grave Every heart, like every soul, equal to break

Yeah, I was gonna say that before Fighteer chimed in.

Epsilon is not a Fragile Speedster; just read the trope description, none of that applies to them. Firing fast is not the same as being fast. If anything, that would be some variation of Spam Attack, but even that's overstating things, because Epsilon's rate of fate is only marginally higher than the other E-Series bots.

I actually had to look it up just to make sure Epsilon having a higher rate of fire was even true, because I never noticed it before, since the E-Series battles are all kind of a joke, save for Beta mk. II.

But on the other hand, you have at least two tropes for that bit when Eggman banishes 3 of them for being...well...cretins and sending to unimportant locations, like he does with his regular badniks. These guys also have their serial numbers painted on their "waists" and E-102 to E-105 where essentially identical, save for their coloration. They were addressed as "...you, The Elite Egg Carrier Crew". And their code names are also another trope.

While I don't think that other guy was actually trying, all of this applies to most or all of the group.

Answer no master, never the slave Carry your dreams down into the grave Every heart, like every soul, equal to break

Yeah, but none of those are Characterization Tropes. It also doesn't change the fact that Delta, Epsilon and Zeta are very minor characters, barely worth a footnote.

Alright, I finished moving the tropes that only apply to adaptations over to their respective pages.

I had another idea for sorting the characters that I think is much better than my first two ideas. Since fans tend to separate the games into three distinct "eras", why not do that for the character pages?

I threw together a "Characters that debuted in the Classic Era" page here, and I'll do the same for the "Adventure" and "Boost" eras later. I included this note to editors, which is commented out at the top of the page and, in my opinion, extremely difficult to miss:

Any thoughts?

Edited by Primis on May 5th 2019 at 1:41:05 AM

This does not work at all. Sandbox.Sonic The Hedgehog Classic Era weighs 631 KB according to a page size checker and shows a too long warning when trying to edit. We'd need to split it again anyway, so it can't be done. Maybe something like Sandbox.Sonic The Hedgehog Classic Era Heroes, Sandbox.Sonic The Hedgehog Classic Era Villains and Sandbox.Sonic The Hedgehog Classic Era Other, and probably the same for other eras since those may also get too long.

Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)

Okay, how's this?

Sandbox.Sonic The Hedgehog Classic Era Heroes
Sandbox.Sonic The Hedgehog Classic Era Villains
Sandbox.Sonic The Hedgehog Classic Era Others

Edited by Primis on Nov 3rd 2018 at 9:41:28 AM

Can't believe I missed this thread. Well as the one who initially made the "Team based page" a few years back, I admit it's pretty superfluous nowadays. So I agree with your suggestion.

If you're gonna split them up by the era they've debuted in, why not use the official terms coined by Sega with "Classic" "Dreamcast" and "Modern"

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

Sandbox.Sonic The Hedgehog Classic Era Heroes weighs 420 KB, Sandbox.Sonic The Hedgehog Classic Era Villains weighs 226 KB and Sandbox.Sonic The Hedgehog Classic Era Others weighs 70 KB (Rounded all of them down). None of them show a too long warning, so I guess it'll do... For now.

And yeah, maybe do use those official terms.

Edited by Piterpicher on Nov 5th 2018 at 5:56:16 PM

Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)

Thing about splitting up the pages by eras though is that it's just as arbitrary as the team system, since its mostly confined to one game, Sonic Generations, the same deal as Sonic Heroes.

So, a much simpler solution would be to simply split between Heroes, Villains, and Other and simply give the characters that have the largest folders their own page.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

I didn't know SEGA even had official terms for the eras, I thought it was purely a fan thing. I'm fine with using the official terms.

I think it makes more sense to use the eras than the teams. After all, the eras still exist outside of Generations, whereas outside of Heroes, Teams Sonic and Rose don't really exist; Knuckles is pretty much always doing his own thing, only occasionally bumping into Sonic and Tails, while Big and Cream haven't even shown up in quite a while, let alone as part of a team with Amy.

Team Dark and Team Chaotix both still exist, since Shadow, Rouge and Omega are pretty much always seen together, and the Chaotix actually are an organized team, but ironically, those two teams don't have their own pages; they're included in the GUN and "Major Allies" pages.

I would actually prefer a simple split between Heroes, Villains and Others, but that would probably still run into the length issue, even if we give the characters with the largest folders their own pages. Sonic's got a lot of characters.

Edited by Primis on Nov 4th 2018 at 9:25:31 AM

I'll try out a simpler split later and see how large it ends up.

But the eras are only really context to Generations, beyond that the only major split is between Classic, Modern, and Boom all of whom are considered separate characters.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

Reorganization works. I don't think we should cut those character entries, but I do think we should merge the E-Series entries.

Keet cleanup

I merged the E-Series robots besides Beta. Everyone seems to have forgotten about this thread.

Keet cleanup

Since Primis said he's OK with it, I changed the sandbox pages to use the Generations era names. I'd like to see this reorganization happen, at least for the heroes (the antagonists page isn't that big), though I disagree with cutting any characters.

Keet cleanup

• The Artifact: Rouge being an agent of the government and GUN tends to be referenced quite a bit, even though none of these elements had a prominent role since 2006 and humans haven't appeared in the games since 2008. By the time of Sonic Forces, her background is a complete mystery.

• Breakout Character: Alongside Shadow, Rouge first appeared in Sonic Adventure 2 and became a member of the main cast in the 2000's, having a prominent role in many adaptations and games (worth mentioning Sonic X), but after 2006 her role became less prominent, especially as GUN has suffered from Chuck Cunningham Syndrome, making her role something of The Artifact.

Added these tropes for Rouge. Ever since Sega said humans no longer exist on the Sonic world, its confusing to even think of what this makes of Team Dark as their origins are very human-centric.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

When and where did Sega say that?

Keet cleanup

I don't have a source, but someone from Sega said that the Sonic World and the Human world in the modern era are two different places. How does that even work is anyone's guess.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

The Two Worlds thing has been known for a while. No, it doesn't make any sense. It also has never actually been referenced in-game, so I'd refrain from adding much to the character pages about it since it's practically guaranteed to be re-retconned or just forgotten about entirely.

Also, this thread isn't really about the Sonic character pages in general. There was a specific purpose to it, but it's kinda redundant with the character page clean-up thread now.

Aye, please use that thread.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Understood, thanks.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

A year later, but I did the deed.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

Here's a report of what I did:

• I cut Team Rose's page and added Amy to the Team Sonic article (now renamed "main characters" because these 4 tend to appear in almost all games, no matter how small their role is, and exist in both Classic and Modern). Cream and Big were moved to "Recurring Characters" because they stopped being relevant since 2004.
• I separated all the antagonists to three articles: Classic Era antagonists, Modern Era Antagonists 1 (Adventure, 1998-2008) and 2 (2008, present). I moved Bean and Bark to the Classic Era antagonists because they now at days tend to be interpreted as such, and separated the Babylon Rogues and Deadly Six per individual, because I despise folders for groups.
• Created a One Shot character article. This article includes characters who, may appear in spin-off titles but only have one relevant role in the series (Tikal, Marine). Many of these characters were in "Other protagonists but were moved because they only appeared once (Elise, the Duke, Chip, Prof. Pickle, the spin-off characters).
• Other protagonists became "Recurring characters". I separated Team Chaotix to its individual members, and put Mighty and Ray in a "Classic only" section. I also added Vainilla to this section because she may be a minor character, but is recurring enough.
• Silver and Blaze got their own article. In it, the page talks about the Continuity Snarl the two share with regarding 06 and Eggman Nega.
• Most of the minor bosses were moved to the Eggman Empire page. I cut the Sphinx boss fight because it had no character at all, while Metal Knuckles and Tails Doll got a place because of adaptations.

My last job is to edit the G.U.N. place so it can also involve the President and Maria, because the two are rather consistent with Shadow's character.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.