During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Bludd Nova and zonda.
Goku Black
By the way having actually watched Alphas. Could I tweak Stanton Parish. He absolutely counts ,but this misses out his origin and motivation and more importantly his name is Parish, it's not Parrish. Theirs no two r's.
- original :
- Magnificent Bastard: Stanton Parrish breaks out all but two inmates of Building Seven, without anybody but the main characters knowing he's involved. He has a lady hypnotize and brainwash anyone in his organization down to the lowest minion to ensure complete loyalty. He lectures the stupid guards as he escapes from custody, and then almost steals psychic's powers. He's had his counterpart's daughter spying for him since before he even knew he existed. And when people finally become aware of his existence, after they foiled a terrorist attack of his that would have murdered an entire city? He hijacks the counter-measures the heroes put in place, and manipulate it so that by defending themselves he can launch an attack that would kill the entire country for what he feels is for the ultimate benefit of the greater good.
- Rewrite:
- Magnificent Bastard: Stanton Parish is an immortal Alpha who intends to create a civil war between Alphas and regular humans, believing his own kind to be in danger from regular humans. Parish breaks out all but two inmates of Building Seven, without anybody but the main characters knowing he's involved. He has a lady hypnotize and brainwash anyone in his organization down to the lowest minion to ensure complete loyalty. He lectures the stupid guards as he escapes from custody, and then almost steals psychic's powers. He's had his counterpart's daughter spying for him since before he even knew he existed. And when people finally become aware of his existence, after they foiled a terrorist attack of his that would have murdered an entire city? He hijacks the counter-measures the heroes put in place, and manipulate it so that by defending themselves he can launch an attack that would kill off all non-Alpha humans in the country for what he feels is for the ultimate benefit of the greater good, with the only regular human he intends to survive being Dr. Lee Rosen who Parish genuinely respects and believes will lead the Alphas into a golden age.
What do you think ?
Edited by miraculous on May 3rd 2020 at 6:00:41 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I'm fine with it. Also, before getting to my collab I'm quite excited for, here's Eisenheim's short story version from Eisenheim the Illusionist. The story details his career and acts, so I'm not going to do an intro section:
Who is Eisenheim? What has he done?
Similarly growing up interested in magic, Eduard Abramowitz moves to Vienna, taking the titular name, to become a stage magician at 28, entertaining increasingly large crowds with acts so profound they seem to come not from mundane means but as though the man sold his soul to the Devil for actual magical powers. As his acts grow his notoriety Eisenheim gains two rivals. The first is a petty magician who steals Eisenheim's more basic tricks, in response, Eisenheim humiliates him onstage and when the man tries to charge Eisenheim with criminal tampering suddenly disappears, giving rumour to Eisenheim making it happen. The second is a more worthy one, with the two competing over a season with increasingly daring acts until the rival seemingly pulls the best magic show ever seen...only to remove his "face", revealing it was Eisenheim all along.
Leaving town, Eisenheim means to get married to an aristocratic woman but this is put to an end by her antisematic father and he returns to Vienna. Now focusing on illusory magic Eisenheim starts wowing the crowd with the creation of what seem to be ghosts which interact with the audience. As his popularity grows to such levels that various theorists begin taking his work as proof of their reasoning behind the soul, psychic powers, etc. the Police Inspector Uhl moves to arrest Eisenheim—fearing questioning of the Empire as his tricks seem to thumb their nose at reality—and makes the move during one of his performances. However when they go to arrest Eisenheim? Their hands fade through him and no trace of him is ever seen again. While searching the house he had constructed to house his gear explains his more basic tricks, nothing ever explains the spectral figures. Theories begin springing up as to whether Eisenheim himself was an illusion or if Uhl was and this was a grand retirement plan but the fame immortalizes the magician's work.
How do his actions and personality show he is a Magnificent Bastard?
Plays all of Vienna with his magical acts and as soon as legal forces make the move on him, is swiftly and easily able to evade them. The story takes a very Maybe Magic, Maybe Mundane stance he's clearly head and shoulders above everyone else for wit here.
Mitigating factors?
Though he can get petty as seen with his mocking and even humiliating his rivals, Eisenheim does seem to have a soft spot for children, as he entertains and wows them with his Pied Piper of Hamelin trick and when he's demanded to stop by a concerned parent, does so immediately.
Verdict?
Nice simple keeper.
I'm having trouble seeing him as enough of a bastard. I'll abstain. Nevermind I forgot about the magician he disappeared.
Edited by jjjj2 on May 3rd 2020 at 9:03:30 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
The Draftsman of Doom
For the setting of a short story I think there's enough: he happily breaks down rival magicians who step to him and the Maybe Magic, Maybe Mundane stance (helped by the fact his higher level tricks have 0 explanation) means he could well have whisked a man away to never be seen again for aggressing him.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
As I was typing that ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Edited by 43110 on May 3rd 2020 at 9:05:07 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Eisenheim.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Goku Black
Eisenheim
Anymore thoughts on my rewrite ?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Based on the EP, to that version of Eisenheim too.
Anyone have an answer to my question? I will not press it though.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on May 3rd 2020 at 6:38:23 AM
Zonda.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Nova. Magnificent Bastards don't neccessarily have to be Chessmasters or Manipulatives Bastards, however they must be cunning. I'm not getting that from Nova's effortpost.
Edited by jjjj2 on May 3rd 2020 at 9:37:35 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
I mean I haven't played the game but setting up QUILL and Copen to kill each other and charming Elise to his side?
Also they technically do have to meet the requirements of Manipulative Bastard and The Chessmaster... it doesn't have to be in a strictly conventional sense and you might not see it listed on their character page but this trope does require both as a prerequisite.
Goku Black
So uh my rewrite. Only 43 has commented on it at this point. I'd like a few more opinions as a courtesy before I draft it.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I mean for someone like Rattlesnake Jake, I feel like you could stretch the definition of Manipulative Bastard to it's breaking point, with his Breaking Speech to Rango. Mostly though I feel he's just dang intimidating, not really a Manipulative Bastard. He's definitely not a Chessmaster. But he is cunning and he is charming. That's good enough for me.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Eh, it's been awhile since I've seen the movie but I seem to recall he takes hand in seeing events go favourably for him. I should note the lines between a Manipulative Bastard and Chessmaster can blur... like, you can play people so that events go the way you want.
Anyway back to Nova, I wasn't getting from the EP that he set up Copen against QUILL, I read that as something incidental that he wasn't going to interfere in. Am I misreading that?
Edited by jjjj2 on May 3rd 2020 at 10:22:04 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Kirby can we get some clarification there?
Also Klavice can you put your Ace Attorney stuff in the drafts?
Edited by 43110 on May 3rd 2020 at 10:25:34 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to on Zonda, but abstain on Nova.
I think the rewrite looks good mir.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
The Draftsman of Doom
Quick question: if it is left ambiguous whether a woman posing as her twin actually slept with a man, does that hurt her MB cred? I have a duo which I want to propose, but it's sort of an all or nothing deal.
I think it's almost certain that the twin he thought he was with is the one he definitely slept with, but it does not say whether he slept with the other twin.
Edited by SkyCat32 on May 3rd 2020 at 11:51:44 AM
Feels good, don't it?
Eisenheim
Nova and Zonda for trying to commit outright genocide.
Passing out, here's a thing:
- Eisenheim the Illusionist, by Steven Millhauser: In this short story upon which The Illusionist was based, the title character, born Eduard Abramowitz moves to Vienna where he entertains audiences with inexplicable tricks, even possibly causing the disappearance of a rival stage magician for aggressing him. Returning after a year's absence, Eisenheim entertains with illusions of immaterial people and when the police move to arrest him out of fear for his power, vanishes himself, leaving no clue as to how he did so, immortalizing his work.
Probably fine, we left up Gordo because although the film makes it unclear whether or not he committed a rape, words from the director indicate he did not, in spite of the writing in the work making it ambiguous.
Edited by 43110 on May 3rd 2020 at 1:17:17 PM
Eisenheim (again)
So I did notice that Better Call Saul was mentioned briefly, but I didn't want to chime in as the two week window hadn't passed. Now that it has...
We unfortunately have to shelve this discussion for another year. BCS has been renewed for a sixth season, meaning it will actually surpass Breaking Bad, which IIRC has also been confirmed to be its final one as the chronologies between the two shows will merge at that point.
The two candidates to look out for are Mike Ehrmantraut, ex-cop Papa Wolf and Professional Killer extraordinaire, and Eduardo "Lalo" Salamanca. There's no doubt in my mind that Mike will readily qualify by the end, though Lalo is more surprising. The latter is a charismatic Genius Bruiser who can match wits with Gustavo Fring, which easily makes him stand out among the more Ax-Crazy and Jerkassy members of his family.
Ergo, in the end we might have four keepers from the BB/BCS universe: Gus, Ed, Mike, and Lalo. Kinda interesting considering we rejected all previous Complete Monster ones.
Edited by Morgenthaler on May 4th 2020 at 2:15:38 AM
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Kirby is shaped like a friend
Nova doesn't set up QUILL and Copen to kill each other, he just says that he hopes they destroy each other to save him the trouble of dealing with them. I did say I was uncertain about him compared to Zonda. (Speaking of which, does one downvote completely negate this or does it just have to be the majority from after a few days?)
<(0_0<) <(0_0)> (>0_0)> KIRBY DANCE
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
@SkyCat32 Personally, I'd say it does hurt the character, but I'd rather see the EP before voting.
Sure to Eisenheim and Zonda. Abstain on Nova.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on May 4th 2020 at 12:27:40 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
@43 Taking a look now.
Based on the EP,![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
to Nova. Still reading the other right now.
I had not gotten to vote on Axlerod though, so that is why I weighed in.
Based on the EP,![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
to Zonda.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on May 3rd 2020 at 4:48:01 AM