During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
I think Bill's on my to do but someone else is welcome to him if they want. Polar, I think you asked me about taking him?
I'll handle Bill. I asked 43110 if that was OK. But I'll wait until everyone's had their say on Papa Palps, because this is gonna take some doing.
@Austin... I won't lie, I'm a bit offended you think I've played some "card". I was expressing solidarity with Kylo on stuff that I feel has unfairly affected his EP.
Like, I never thought that Lighty or 43110 or anyone was being anything other than courteous, but it's getting to be a bit of a headache and I wish it was all a bit clearer. It's all a matter of mixed messages, misunderstandings and all this other crap.
In PM's I asked Kylo about EU stuff and he seemed pretty confident that just the main films would be the focus, so I don't think enough people expressed that stuff like Clone Wars, Contingency and other stuff WOULD be a big deal, or big enough that he should talk about it. It's no one's fault just unfortunate.
And I am feeling very down right now. I was already feeling the mire, but this... just sealed it. I need a break. Not, for like, weeks or even days. Just until I can sort out my head.
...the internet can be hard sometimes.
I have made a few spelling tweaks and addendums under the Magnificent Bitch entry in Destiny for better context:
Now, when posting an approved entry in the YMMV page, shouldn't we put a link to the relevant approved writeup in %% comments in case somebody tries to delete the entry by themselves without checking in here first?
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
@ Ano, I think G got her up, so as long as he's good for the changes, so am I. As for your suggestion about commenting the YMMV pages I personally prefer to go in good faith casual tropers reading the page won't screw with the entry and only put the comment up on problematic pages.
Edit: Actually, with the stuff you've added the entry has become fairly lengthy, probably more so than it needs to be. Can you cut back on the less relevant details?
Edited by 43110 on Apr 10th 2019 at 1:21:12 PM
I am not trying to be mean, I just think Palpataine is too evil to count. There several characters who I think would count, if their rap sheet was not too heinous.
Yeah, Papa Palps is just too sadistic in the end for me to ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
him. I will abstain.
@43110 Roger that. Cutting away some of the fluff.
"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
Handsome Head of Hyperion
I will also give a ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Palpatine. I have no major knowledge of his EU actions and personality, but in the movies, animated shows, and canon novels I have seen, he is far too much on the "bastard" side to count for me. In just one scene off the top of my head from the canon novel Lords of the Sith, he kills several of his own soldiers just for seeing him use the Force, and later he orders Vader to massacres an entire village of defenseless people just because they saw him while cackling his head off. Like, legitimate Laughing Mad laughter at the sounds of their dying screams, which is veering way too much into "bastard" for me.
If we only voted on his appearances in the films, then I'd be far more inclined to give him a , because his only moment of notable sadism or needless evil is torturing Luke with Force Lightning, but as is, I don't think we should completely exclude all his other appearances except the films, as that would feel like a double standard.
to Shadowman for 43110's reasons as well.
Edited by AgeOfTropeEmpire on Apr 10th 2019 at 10:42:11 AM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
For a non CM example. I have Shirou Karasawa from World Embryo. Even his Redemption Equals Death Moment really don't manage to erase his onscreen constant sadism, the time where he seemingly mocked his ex-girlfriend for losing their baby (thought it was later retconned to Shirou trying to subtly force her to remind her Ret-Gone sister) or his sadism at making the amnesic heroic to fight mutated versions of her biological family. That doesn't change that Shirou is a prime example of Even Evil Has Loved Ones and that he's epic to see in action, but he's way too cruel to count.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Apr 10th 2019 at 12:42:10 PM
Watch me destroying my country
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Well, I wouldn't call it a double standard. Unless I'm misremembering, the reason it was decided that the film's should be the main focus was that Palps had essentially become one of those "big" cases like Dr.Doom or Kingpin(I can recall some major stories where Doom let's his ego get the better of him). And that Palps main charachterization was what was shown in the film's.
@Kazuya Another Example is Flowey the flower from Undertale. Complex and tragic charachter and brilliant Chessmaster....but also way, way WAY to much of a petty sadist.
Edited by Kylotrope on Apr 10th 2019 at 10:49:22 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Kazuya, can do me a favour pal? Please cast an explicit vote on Palpatine: I'm pretty certain of where you stand but it just makes it easier for documentation and when I'm going to have to go back whenever the dust settles to count totals.
This was the issue with Palpatine I pointed out some time ago. If we factor in all the side material from canon he's too much of a bastard. Lords of the Sith was also the main objection I had initially.
Like if you just put it at the films, or even just the films and TCW(I think the only overtly evil things he does is experiment of children with the help of Cad Bane, and even then you can argue that serves a purpose of creating a Sith army), then Palpatine is a CM/MB crossover. But like if you factor in stuff like the Contingency and the events of Lords of the Sith......
Also unlike comics and the EU, there is more of a "canon" with the Disney canon rather than some stories loosely connected with lots of continuity issues.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Well to be fair Xie. Lightysnake seamt to say that the reason Clone wars was being taken into consideration was that it was a major production in the SW media as opposed to a side comic or Book.
Edited by Kylotrope on Apr 10th 2019 at 11:09:20 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
I think Films + TCW is still somewhat arguable that he's a MB. It's films and TCW+canon material OTOH....
Edited by xie323 on Apr 10th 2019 at 11:13:15 AM
The Aftermath Trilogy was kind of a big deal as well. It led into The Force Awakens quite a bit, so if we're including TCW, should we include that?
But yeah... that Lords of the Sith thing... I mean, killing his own troops and innocents because they were witnesses to his power? That's something I can live with. Laughing like a loon while doing it? A bit too far into "Dude, this isn't necessary."
For what it's worth I still want to add Palps in case anyone was doubting where I stood.
EDIT: At the very least we should include TCW because while that was Dave Filoni's baby Lucas did approve of it.
Edited by PolarPhantom on Apr 10th 2019 at 7:54:48 PM
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
The Aftermath trilogy was Important To the story but it wasn't a major Production on the scale of TCW.
I found the Post by Shaoken a while time ago Wich Summarized this.
"As for the EU, Palpatine is such a large character on par with Lex Luthor and the Kingpin. There are many stories about Palpatine that portray him differently. Some make Palpatine to be the smartest person in the galaxy. Others made him into a Smug Snake prone to Villainous Breakdown or an even bigger Complete Monster than he was in the films. Really, the core of Palpatine's character lies within the six films (and the Clone Wars TV show for good measure). The rest are just add-on details."
So maybe TCW could be Taken into account. But not the rest.
Edited by Kylotrope on Apr 10th 2019 at 12:27:19 PM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
@Ano you can tweek Mara Sow's write-up (though I do prefer if you don't put parenthesis in the write-up.)
As for Palpatine I'm just going to keep my stay out of the matter. To he's a very cool, intelligent, impressive badass villain, who seems to do just enough that his more unsavory traits don't kill his magnificence but I can understand that there are some who would him for said traits.
Now it looks like 43110 said his opinion on The Shadow Man saying a no to him due to his Villainous Breakdown at the end. I did say that he lost his cool twice but regained his composure, though I guess his last breakdown of him roaring at his enemies seems to be enough to kill his magnificence (shame because I really thought he would be a qualifier)
Funny since this is the opposite scenario where The Shadow Man qualify as a CM but not a MB while Augustine manages to qualify as a MB but not a CM.
Speaking of which here are my Infamous MB write-ups
- inFAMOUS
- Original Game: Kessler is a version of Cole MacGrath from the future where he lost his entire family from The Beast's rampage. Traveling back in time he forcibly took control of the First Sons where he had them create the Ray Sphere and then giving it to Cole MacGrath, resulting in the latter getting his powers, as well as causing massive collateral damage to Empire City and its eventual quarantine. Setting himself as Cole's nemesis, he tricks Cole into believing he had cause the grim future, manipulates Cole's best friend Zeke into joining his side, and giving Cole a series of Sadistic Choices leading to the death of Cole's girlfriend Trish. Successfully causing Cole to seek vengeance on Kessler, he gives Cole the Ray Sphere to use, before fighting him head on. Upon being defeated, Kessler then reveals to Cole his true identity, as well the existence of The Beast and the destruction he'll bring, admitting that his actions against Cole was to make him stronger so that he'll be able to succeed at stopping The Beast where Kessler himself failed.
- Second Son: Brooke Augustine is the director of the DUP (Department Of Unified Protection) who founded the organization to hunt down and imprison the super-powered Conduits on the pretense of protecting the non-conduits, though her true motives are to keep the Conduits safe from the violence and discrimination cause by non-conduits. With the DUP, she manages to hunt down and imprison nearly all the Conduits in America where she has them endure experimentation and training to make them stronger while she manipulates them for her own ends. When the government decides to shut down the DUP and have Augustine hand over her captive conduits, she give Henry "Hank" Daughtry the means to escape prison transportation allowing him and the other conduits escape and create mass panic in Seattle, causing the government to continue funding the DUP while giving Augustine complete control of Seattle. When Delsin Rowe becomes a hinderance to Augustine's plans she has Hank lure him and his brother Reggie to a trap where she kills Reggie and nearly kills Delsin. Depending on Delsin's Karma Meter Augustine can persuade Delsin to use his heroic status to promote the DUP or declare that his infamy has cause everyone to support the DUP, before fighting him.
Edited by G-Editor on Apr 9th 2019 at 10:22:59 PM
Inclined to back G on the parenthesis thing in writeups. Maybe it's just me but I feel like they don't belong in a formal entry.
Okay, there is one of my old MB examples I want to submit for a cut: Asdrubael Vect on basis of being too vile.
Reasoning? Vect is sadistic on a grand scale. While I'm okay with the other Dark Eldar CM's, Vect...showcases a vicious cruelty that goes to petty levels that the rest don't. He's basically the most depraved and evil of a race of evil torturers, and most of their vague standards are things he just treats as limitations to ignore. Compare to every other single MB in WH who ahve standards, or some level of good intention to them
Edited by Lightysnake on Apr 10th 2019 at 1:23:32 AM
Almost forgot here's my write-up for Shakespeare
- Something Rotten!: William Shakespeare is a famous English playwright who learns that his rivals, The Bottom Brothers, have use a Soothsayer to copy a play he would write in the future. Shakespeare would infiltrate the Bottom Brothers' acting troupe and encourage the brothers to continue making "Omelette", while convincing Nigel Bottom to give him Nigel's written work. After exposing the Bottom Brothers of using a Soothsayer to steal his work, Shakespeare will have their sentence reduce from execution to banishment to the Americas while Shakespeare will use Nigel's work to create the universally acclaimed "Hamlet".
Golly, I've missed quite a bit it seems. Ahem...
- Abstain on Brooke until contradicting details can be cleared up.
- No to Emperor Palpatine - he's a bit too metal for my taste (although I admit Ian McDiarmid is a golden god).
- A yes to cutting Vect - I've been meaning to bring that up after 43 mentioned him during the Darkseid discourse, but I kept forgetting to.
- A yes to everyone else I missed.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
In my case, yes. Don't apologize for asking, I tend to use silly lingo once in a while.
Edited by DocSharp on Apr 10th 2019 at 3:09:21 AM
Sorry man cause I know Vect ended up being a lot more drawn out in the cutting process than was really fair to you but I agree he's really got to go. To me he's up there will Palpatine for just being so evil I can't find anything about him to call Magnificent. Smart and cool? Sure but as I've said before, the dude basically festers a society that wouldn't be out of place in Crossed and standing out as a CM in 40K of all places takes a serious level of vileness. Also agree the other DE keepers are fine.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
I'm, sorry if I sound like an idiot. But what does "too metal" mean Exaclty? I'm assuming it's a synonym for "Too evil"?
to Vect.
Edited by Kylotrope on Apr 10th 2019 at 1:29:08 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
On the money there Kylo.
Bill is indeed and jackie may be a good discussion.