During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
I’m here, I guess.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Expanding? Well for the most part, RWBY covered almost everything, but I guess worth mentioning is that while she did end up losing the contest to OJ in season 1, it was due to something out of her control. She was well on her way to crossing the finish line first until one of the eliminated contestants, having gone feral from being locked in a small box after their elimation, ended up tackling her, slowing her down. So, if that's what jjjj was referring to when saying that she was outwitted, it was from something that couldn't really be predicted.
That's... exactly who I was thinking about. I was also considering Suzuya, albeit with less confidence than Arima. Neither are reserved are they?
I was planning on Arima, but Suzuya I can easily see. If you want to collab I'm down. There's honestly a good few on Ghoul who can still make it.
Now, I wanna do one MB long, LONG overdue.
From Metal Gear Solid 5. I give you...Venom Snake.
Who is Venom Snake?
"Big Boss," the Phantom, Ahab V. He was a medic in service to Big Boss and a soldier par excellence. A bad bombing wounded him and Big Boss, with Venom Snake reconstructed into a perfect double of Big Boss. The two fought together to escape where Venom Snake was gifted his codename and met Kazuhira Miller, who helped him gain command of an army, a mercenary group called the Diamond Dogs, to resist the depravities of the Cipher organization.
To build up their rep, Venom Snake undertook missions for the CIA, aimed in Afghanistan at fighting the Soviets, performing ruthless sabotage and also bringing him closer to Cipher, meeting Revolver Ocelot and the depraved Skull Face. Snake proceeded to dimantle Soviet operations, expanding the Diamond Dogs and meeting the mysterious, mute sniper Quiet.
Investigating the plans of Skull Face, Snake took on missions to Central Africa to get closer to Skull Face, rescuing captive children used for experimentation and war, while also erasing militants to win over the locals, and little by little getting through over Cipher and to reach Skull Face who was designing a powerful Metal Gear, and plotted to spread a parasite to destroy the English language to make all know his "Phantom Pain."
Snake defeated Skull Face, who was executed by the scientist Huey Emmerich. It was soon after Snake realized that a girl that Big Boss had bonded with, Paz, was truly dead and his visions of her was nothing but a phantom conjured by guilt..
And that he was not truly Big Boss. Worse, the vocal parasite sprea through his base, infecting numerous soldiers. Without any option, Venom Snake in the game's most soul-wrenching moment, stalks into the corridors to find his soldiers and kill them. Many of whom stand at attention, trusting their leader's decision.
Their bodies are burnt and Venom Snake declares "I will not scatter your ashes to the heartless seas. You are all diamonds," with orders to make the ashes into diamonds so they might carry them into battle. Fighting with his identity, he was rescued by the sacrifice of Quiet and received a tape from Big Boss.
And made his choice: loyalty to Big Boss, razing an island and recovering plans for Metal Gear, while giving the survivors the option to hate and face him. Big Boss created the soldier paradise of Outer Heaven and Venom Snake, as his double, operated it from the star in the uprising to give Big Boss time behind the scenes.
Facing down none other than Solid Snake, the son of Big Boss, in a battle to the end. Venom Snake fell at last, while Big Boss would resurface again years later and face Snake again, before ending the plots of Cipher and the Patriots.
Ahab, Venom Snake, died gladly for the man he considered his best friend, being welcomed by Quiet into the afterlife.
Loyal to the end. Worthy of bearing the title Big Boss
Mitigating factors?
Can I not get across this man is perhaps the greatest soldier ever? The entire game is Venom Snake skillfully and strategically doing...everything. Operations across war torn lands, with brilliant strategy, building up the entire reputation that Big Boss is known for. The only rub is he is manipulated by big Boss as a face in the light while Big Boss remains in the shadows to build Outer Heaven.
And here's why this doesn't DQ him. He learns this. He knows it. And he decides to continue on. He decides he wants to follow Big Boss. By the end, Outer Heaven, all he's done? It's his will, the will of Ahab, Venom Snake and nobody else's. He chooses his own path and Big Boss fully acknowledges him as an equal, as the only other man worthy to bear the same title. He's a charismatic commander with some dark moments, the execution of his soldiers for one.
Venom Snake, little by little, erodes his morality, committing questionable acts that see innocents sacrificed but he remains at his core a well intentioned man who loves those under his command and deeply cares for the victims of war. His defining feature is his endless loyalty to Big Boss and the dream to see the world freed from Cipher/The Patriots
Conclusion?
absolutely.
Edited by Lightysnake on Apr 6th 2022 at 10:10:28 AM
Men becoming demons ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Venom Snake.
As for being outwitted, I was talking about her whole deal with microphone. The first part I could see that as she didn't see it coming and having watched some of the episode while taco does seem mildly annoyed it's not to disqualifying levels. But whatever happens with microphone is too much for me to say she's Magnificent.
Edited by jjjj2 on Apr 6th 2022 at 1:22:58 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Goku Black
Venom Snake
Metal Gear is just a gold mine
Another for Kiefer Sutherland? Aka Jack Bauer
Edited by miraculous on Apr 6th 2022 at 10:21:22 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I’m here, I guess.
I see, sorry for misunderstanding. Well, the show's still ongoing so she may recover from it, but I guess in this case she's a tentative ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
until the show catches up.
Venom Snake
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Well, yes, but episodes tend to take a while to come out (the last episode was released in August 2020), and the creators say there will be two more episodes, so it may take a while.
Edited by GenericGuy2000 on Apr 6th 2022 at 1:28:44 PM
I’m gonna put some Gloom in your eye.
Goku Black
Oh is her arc ongoing? Than I'd leave it for now. It's totally possible to recover from that in the future and keep.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lies and Violence!
Johnson and Venom Snake, staying out of Taco for now.
I have another one for APGtE ready, but first I want to cut one of the current keepers.
Tariq the Grey Pilgrim (original EP here) is one of the oldest heroes on the continent, with a legendary reputation of preventing unnecessary suffering wherever he goes. Keyword here being unnecessary. If he needs to infect a village with a plague to catch a villain, he'll do so.
For a brief summary:
- Book 4: Tariq is one of the leading heroes of the Tenth Crusade, which seeks to invade Praes by marching through/conquering Callow. Tariq is nice to Cat, even setting up terms of warfare — no demons/angels used from either side, no sacking of cities, etc. — but he refuses to make peace despite her desperate pleas as A) the Tenth Crusade needs to succeed for First Prince Cordelia to stay on the throne and usher in an era of peace, and B) he's a bit worried about the danger posed by this horribly powerful girl who might be getting Drunk on the Dark Side. Although Cat manages to bloody both sides enough that they're forced into a truce, Tariq (who was her greatest obstacle through his sheer power and ability to resurrect dead heroes) attempts to invoke a Redemption Equals Death story, which Cat has no choice but to accept if she wants to avoid conflict a little longer.
- Book 5:
- Tariq's worst fears are seemingly confirmed when, after completely disappearing for a few months, Cat returns with an army of psychopathic demigods at her beck and call. Fearing that she could become the next Dead King, Tariq attempts to set up a "Pattern of Three" (the arch-enemy wins the first confrontation, ends up in a draw in the second, and is killed in the third), intending to hold that third confrontation as a knife to her neck to ensure her cooperation in the making of peace and the march on Keter. Cat... quickly figures out what he was up to, negates the pattern by surrendering, and reveals the obvious in hindsight fact that the Dead King is already trying to kill them by dropping a piece of faery land on top of them.
- The next few chapters are spent in simultaneous cooperation and mistrust, as Cat has to hammer in the fact that she wants peace too, there's no need to be this antagonistic about it. Tariq, after finally learning to trust her, sacrifices himself to prevent the calamity — only to be resurrected, and he pledges his support for her joining the good guy side.
- And then, when Cat tries to bring up the eldritch monstrosity that is the Wandering Bard (including the fact that she just tried to kill her literally seconds ago), Tariq refuses to believe that she's evil, and Cat is forced to threaten to declare war on all of them and ruin their chance at peace if he lets the Bard join up. He also curses the backstabbing Tyrant of Helike, Kairos Theodosian, to speak only the truth lest the angelic Choir of Mercy smite him. Unfortunately, right when Tariq calls in Mercy to stop Kairos from crippling the Choir of Judgement later on, Kairos lies, forcing Mercy to focus on punishing him before helping Judgement.
- Book 6: Tariq, while remaining helpful in the war effort, is eventually confronted with irreparable proof that the Bard is an enemy, and while he initially still trusts his old friend's intentions he concedes that he will henceforth treat her as an enemy. He sacrifices himself again to wipe out some of the Dead King's armies in a seemingly-hopeless battle, but his use of angelic powers gives the Dead King the narrative excuse to start using demons. There was admittedly no better way to get everyone else out alive, but it's still a blow.
Back when I was originally proposing him, I felt that, for all his flaws, he still worked for three reasons:
- He was competent.
- He was willing to admit to and make up for mistakes.
- These are extenuating situations he couldn't really prepare for (he's never met a villain who genuinely wanted to do good throughout his entire career, and the Bard's immortality/omniscience allowed her to gain his trust in his youth).
However, these also downplay a few things:
- While he has some really, really clever schemes... they don't actually go anywhere. Cat easily negates the Pattern of Three thing once she recognizes what's going on by turning their second match into a victory for Tariq, and I'm not entirely sure what happened to the Redemption Equals Death story. Pretty sure it just dissipated when she fucked off to conquer the drow. Cursing Kairos didn't really have any other effect other than forcing him to up the time table for his plans, and while sacrificing himself a second time was literally the only way out, the Dead King immediately taking advantage overshadows it into almost a Senseless Sacrifice. I have more candidates that make big mistakes, but there's still enough history of intelligent plots to back up their magnificence. I'm sure Tariq has had more schemes throughout his life, but without actually seeing any of those, the ones we get are pretty lackluster, and his Heroic Sacrifices aren't enough to make up for that.
- Just because he's humble and willing to make up for mistakes doesn't change the fact that he made mistakes.
- One of those extenuating circumstances alone I could excuse. Both, however, make half of his page time into antagonizing Cat for incorrect reasons.
Don't get me wrong, he's still smart, and I'm sure if we were shown more of his past he'd easily still keep. But without that, there isn't enough to distract from the fact that A) half of his time in the story is spent needlessly holding the Conflict Ball, and B) his major, observable schemes fall flat on their faces.
I say cut.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Apr 6th 2022 at 1:41:46 PM
Venom Snake, you're a magnificent bastard?... Mission complete, this is why you're the best, Boss.
Yes to Venom Snake.
to Venom Snake. Despite being a body double, he earned this trope.
Also is there any reason Big Boss himself isn't one of the Greats? He's a text book example and certainly iconic enough. I think Revolver Ocelot also has a shot of that (he's my personal go to example of a Magnificent Bastard) but that's just my opinion.
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to Venom Snake. Abstain on Tariq.
Feels good, don't it?
It's been a long time since I played MGS V admittedly, but from what I remembered, doesn't Venom Snake get manipulated by like, half the characters, not just Big Boss? He's magnificent, but I feel like he's a bit too much of a pawn in the grand scheme of things.
Edited by Awesomekid42 on Apr 6th 2022 at 2:14:27 PM
Woagh
to Johnson and Venom Snake.
I guess cut Tariq.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Apr 6th 2022 at 11:36:12 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Like I said there...Venom Snake is a pawn at first. But he takes back his own identity and forges ahead for himself. All of Outer heaven was done with him and Big Boss together.
Punished "Venom" Snake. I was going to EP him myself but I'm glad I don't have to anymore.
And I suppose I should get my Write Ups for Stranger of Paradise up now:
- Stranger of Paradise: Final Fantasy Origin:
- Jack's Party - Ash, Jed, Neon and Sophia - are loyal companions that nonetheless guide their leader on his dark path. Working together with their fragmented memories and Astos' guidance, they subtly push Jack into regaining some of his memories and all his strength. When Astos dies, Darkness veils Cornelia which finally results in Princess Sarah's death. The 4 Friends are pleased with this result, attacking Jack and forcing him to kill them to fully push him past the Despair Event Horizon. Even after death, they are reborn as the Four Fiends - Lich, Kraken, Marilith and Tiamat respectively - and are happily complicit in Jack's plan to cover Cornelia in Darkness to bring about the True Warriors of Light.
- Astos, King of the Dark Elves, is Jack's loyal and committed Co-Conspirator. Bred by the Lufenians to serve Strangers, Jack earned Astos' undying friendship, asking him to help him defeat Lufenia by any means necessary. After being direct proved fruitless, Astos became more duplicitous. Tipping the scales in his favour by giving Neon a Dark Crystal so she could attempt to become Chaos, he went on to guide Jack and Co, offering just enough advice to help them along, so that they'd defeat the Fiends, restore the Crystals and recover their memories. At the same time ensuring their safety and having his bats guide them, Astos goads Jack into killing him, ending his miserably lonely existence while also releasing the Darkness within his Heart, ensuring the Destruction of Cornelia and Jack's rebirth into Chaos.
Any advice would be welcome. I spoke with mir and we figured this should go in the Spin Offs section on the FF page.
Also. I unfortunately watched Morbius today. Oof. Though not quite as bad as I was expecting or hoping.
Edited by PolarPhantom on Apr 6th 2022 at 12:12:44 PM
Yes to Venom Snake.
We've had some issues with an overflowing of effort posts. My next few Metalocalypse candidates are all one shots, so I can pump them out pretty fast. What's a good rate for you guys? I can do one a day, but that might be unnecessarily restrictive.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
One or two a day should work, but just use your best judgment to make sure the thread's not oversaturated.
My next candidate will definitely be more on the bastard side. It kinda feels we've gotten more squeamish on that aspect lately. Someone who kills hundreds to satisfy their own greed feels more like an older thread candidate than a new one.
Is it just me or does it feel like the thread as a whole has slid more towards anti-heroes and anti-villains that the more traditional genuine evil we've had?
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Alright. to Venom Snake
Goku Black
Hey I can fix that soon
I have 20 candidates planned from The Dark Hunters planned eventually (before you ask theirs like sixty five books over five sub series. That have run for two decades)
They'll run the gamut from anti hero to legit bad guy albeit with a few tragic touches. Plus some really famous ones like Hades and set.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
to Venom Snake
Professor Gigachad
Venom Snake
Lies and Violence!
While waiting for more feedback on Tariq, here's the third. And more backstory, yay! It was unintentional x5, but here's another anti-hero... I think.
The dwarves of the Kingdom Under are the only people from the continent of Calernia considered to be more than a regional power, with a vast and mighty underground empire. Their equivalent of smithing tools are dangerous enough to successfully fight off an aboveground nation. Since dwarves are notoriously greedy and of the opinion that only dwarves can actually own stuff, they have a bit of a superiority complex and look down on humans, leaving most in the dark about the details of their society.
And their society is... pretty shit. The Kingdom Under has a rigid caste system, with the wealthy living in expansive caverns while the commoners toil in deep, dank pits. The latter group can be flogged for merely knocking on the doors of their "betters." It's unofficially ruled by hundreds of "land-kings," though only the (nominal) authority of the King Under the Mountain prevents them from breaking out into war.
Who is the Herald of the Deeps?
A dwarf from an incredibly wealthy family, the Herald of the Deeps came to witness the injustices being done to the lower class and fell in love with a commoner named Balasi, setting out to reform their cruel state of living (along the way he developed a fascination with spirits, frequently capturing and imprisoning them in a magic staff). It... backfired, to say the least, and the Herald's political reputation was damaged. Seeking another way to progress his reforms away from the land-kings, the Herald managed to gain command of the Fourteenth Expedition
The Dead King has a massive underground complex beneath his kingdom, although the dwarves have been able to wall off his expansion through tunnels filled with molten steel... save the area right next door to the Kingdom of the Dead, the underground labyrinth home to the drow. The Fourteenth Expansion is intended to take over and finish the prison.
Waiting until the Dead King is busy marching on the aboveground nations to strike, the Herald's forces enact systematic massacres of any drow tribe they come across. Cat, having arrived to enslave politely recruit the drow, first finds evidence of their invasion when she comes across a cavern full of corpses: men, women, and children alike.
Drow are basically ultra-powerful demigods, so the ease in which this was done is a bit disturbing.
Anyway, Cat is captured when she inevitably stumbles across their main force, and is brought to the Herald.
"I was," I replied. "Then I murdered a demigod and stole his power."
"And so you come to the Everdark," the dwarf said. "Seeking yet more."
"I have a great many enemies," I said. "Enough it might be said we share a few."
The Herald smiled, slow and mean.
"I offer hospitality to you, Queen of Callow," he said. "Let us eat, drink, and talk of murdering gods."
Well, now they were speaking my language.
The Herald explains he's here to take over by murdering the drow goddesses Sve Noc — Cat absolutely believes he could get the job done — and has brought thousands families to colonize the outer layers of the Everdark, intending to raise fortresses and cities for the likely decades-long war against the drow and the Dead King ahead of them (it also helps that, so far away from the rest of the kingdom, the rules of the caste system and all those cultural taboos about interacting with commoners aren't as rigidly enforced). He agrees to give Cat a chance at recruiting some of the drow, throwing in some payment for lessening the workload and banning sales of armaments to any nation at war with Callow.
This works better than he could have ever hoped. A few months later, Cat returns, having convinced Sve Noc to help her out. They negotiate some more and the Herald agrees to provide enough supplies for the evacuation of every single drow from the Everdark. Two years later and, not having to deal with a bunch of asshole drow all the time, the Fifteenth Expansion is able to finally seal off the Dead King's underground influence. Unfortunately, the sheer ease in which they found success suddenly made pioneering look safe for all his political enemies back home, and the Herald's hopes of turning the distant Everdark colonies into a safe haven for the trod upon go up in smoke as they make preparations to join him.
Not all hope is lost, of course. As Cat's efforts to fight the Dead King strain under her decreasing food and troop reserves, the Herald makes an offer: supplies and dwarven forces to assist in the invasion of the Kingdom of the Dead in exchange for ceding three entire cities to the Kingdom Under, which would buy him enough political success that he'd be able to safely plan and forge alliances for the next few decades. Since politics are a bitch, Cat can't exactly accept without risking a civil war from the public backlash — and yes, I know they're already at war with the goddamn uber-Night King, but if the last few years have taught us anything it's that a shared global threat will only make humanity start backstabbing each other faster.
After a bit of bickering, Cat's allies figure out that he's desperate and confront him, forcing him to negotiate in good faith. He explains his people's plight, and while they won't give him the cities he asked for, they agree to give him Keter once they've gotten rid of the Dead King.
"A great city among once-rich lands," Hanno replied. "An outpost with roads to the Kingdom Under, a natural capital to the Fifteenth Expansion."
"Even if all the dead are broken," Balasi slowly said, "there would be no trade, or humans to work under us."
"Are you seeking change," the Sword of Judgment quietly replied, "or just to add a rung below you on the ladder?"
Both dwarves flinched. There was talk back and forth after that, about boundaries of land and trade concessions and the massive sum of gold that they both wanted — I now suspected to make a garden out of Keter, if they were stuck there — but I could tell that it was Hanno's retort that had done it. Every time it looked like they were getting angry, they felt the bite of the bladelike sentence slide below a rib.
The Herald promises to uphold their agreed-upon bargain with all his might, and departs to pitch it to his superiors. As time goes on and the invasion of Keter begins, they receive word from the Herald that he has been replaced as the dwarven representative, warning that his superiors now want four cities for their help. Left with only a few weeks of supplies left, it seems mutiny is inevitable...
And the Herald returns with an army. He explains that he demanded the King Under the Mountains support their cause so they can finally end the Dead King, but was banished for his insolence.
Cordelia stilled as I leaned forward. Power burned in the dwarf’s green eyes, old and deep and without the slightest semblance of humanity to it.
"I slew the king on his throne," the Herald of the Deeps said, "and declared all of his line to be without burden or purpose. Unfit to rule."
Broad Strokes explanation skipping over the little nuances: since Names like the Herald are character archetypes in stories, and this world literally runs on stories, a dramatic declaration like that can be twisted into asserting your very will on reality if you have the right weight in the right narrative — just randomly killing him one day wouldn't be enough, but when he's refused to help finally stop the millennia-old lich king? That's a different story. With the king's heirs now ineligible to take the throne, every land-king quickly declares themself the new King Under the Mountain, sparking hundreds of civil wars among the Kingdom Under. The Herald, still ashamed by Hanno's earlier words, frees the spirits in his staff — which also causes enough chaos for him to escape — and rides a river of lava to return to the Fourteenth and Fifteenth, where he claims control before any of the other land-kings can get there and gathers the soldiers to bring supplies for the siege.
Yadda yadda yadda, epic climactic fight against the hordes of the undead ensue. The Herald takes his troops to sabotage an underground ritual intended to turn Keter into a giant Beyblade of death, summoning a giant goddamn fire snake to do so.
It's more dramatic than that, but I'm trying to keep this one short, so we're skipping over the emotional beats of his short but sweet character arc.
In the aftermath, the Herald is declared king of the land that was once Keter, making peace with the other nations of Calernia while setting up his long-desired haven for the lower-class dwarves.
Is he magnificent?
Not quite as pronounced as some of the others on my list, but he's cool enough. His war against the drow is terrifying in just how efficient and effective it is, he's not overly sadistic and is willing to just let them all leave so long as they don't cause too much trouble on the way out, and he'll honor his deals to the very last breath. Plus, he shows no major inclination towards the usual dwarven contempt for other species, and any remaining sense of superiority is dashed when Hanno calls them out on being like the stuck-up dwarf lords he hates. From then on, he's a helpful and loyal ally who does his best to make up for his past sins.
Trying to bargain for the cities was a serious misstep — everyone is able to see his desperation with laughable ease, with the main conflict there being Cat's allies arguing over how they should approach the Herald rather than whether they'll agree to his deal — but he makes up for it when he breaks the Kingdom Under, leaving him more politically powerful than he ever could have imagined and with enough freedom to enact the reforms he and his husband have dreamed of for so long.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
We're introduced to him literally committing genocide on the drow race, and he later tries to leverage the lives of everyone on the continent to get a few cities. No issue there. Atrocities are pretty bread and butter for this series — the dwarves do mass expansions like that all the time, and just wait 'til I explain the drow themselves in more detail — so I won't say it's too evil either.
Final verdict?
And another yes.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Apr 6th 2022 at 5:34:14 AM
Woagh
Got another Skylanders candidate. I did not realize until recently how productive this damn series is for this trope.
What's the Work?
Skylanders, Toys-to-Life, Spyro spinoff, yadda yadda yadda, you probably get the gist. This candidate's a minor character who nonetheless appears in both the original game and its sequel, Giants. In the first game, theres a bonus level called Pirate Seas, where a small town has been overtaken by a crew of pirates, and the mayor's daughter Jess, who managed to escape capture, contacts the Skylanders to come and drive them off. The leader of the Pirates?
Who is Captain Dreadbeard?
The leader of the pirates who's always ready with a card up his sleeve.
What's he do?
Right, so he and his crew come to the island and challenge the residents to a game of "Pirate Cards", which is basically a card matching game with cards that have special effects, such as cursing the player or swapping around the cards. Long story short, he and his crew were so good that they ended up beating every single resident, whose punishment for losing is to be locked up in a cage. He then uses this to rob everyone of their riches and treasures and plans to sail back to his fortress with it.
By the time the Skylanders get there, he's fortified the island to include some enemies and has multiple entrances blocked by his crew, and the only way around it is to beat them at Pirate Cards. Dreadbeard himself is seemingly the final opponent, telling the Skylander that, if they win, he'll leave the island. When he does lose however, he then reveals that his card game was a distraction so that his men could capture Jess, and also tells them that, while he'll indeed leave, he's taking the treasures with him. When the Skylanders pursue him to his lair, which is also fortified with canons, he challenges them to one last game of Pirate Cards using his real best deck, which contains every gimmick in the game. Once you beat him, he compliments your skills and gives back Jess and the treasure for real this time, though not before promising that he'll be back.
And sure enough, he returns for the main campaign of Giants, where it's shown that he and his men have taken over a carnival, dubbing it the "Cutthroat Carnival", and have moved on to the more popular game Skystones, a more traditional PVP card game. Flynn and Callie, alongside the Skylanders, visit there for an engine to put on their ship, and the only way the mechanic will allow them to do so if they beat Dreadbeard in Skystones. When they do get to him, the path being littered with cyclops mooks, he ambushes you so that he can steal 5 gold coins, apparently having let Flynn borrow some and never having gotten them back. When the Skylander beats his men, he then decides on Plan B: challenge them to a game of Skystones, where he's naturally the toughest opponent in the Carnival. When beaten, he gives his word and gives you the engine, no twist this time.
After the mission, he actually joins Flynns crew and offers the Skylander a rematch whenever they want, and afterwards he can be found in his quarters and be challenged for some quick cash.
Is he Smart/Charming?
For a minor villain? I'd say he does well. He manages to take over and rob an entire town just by using a card game, has both the island and his lair fortified to fight off intruders, captures Jess when the Skylanders are distracted, and of course is a clever opponent when dueling the Skylanders with cards. The second game shows that he took over a carnival and is shown to be pretty well off with it.
Its also shown that, compared to the rest of his crew, he usually takes his defeats in stride and is perfectly willing to live up to his end of a bargain without fuss. The only time he breaks a promise (the whole "capture Jess" thing) was during a pragmatic trap for the Skylanders, and even afterwards he decides to release her when you beat him a second time and even compliments you.
How bad is he?
Slaps an entire town in cages and robs them. Eyup.
Okay, to expand, literally the only thing they do is trap the islanders and that's it, its entirely G-Rated pirate shit. Its also implied that working at the Carnival isn't to pleasant, but its both not explored and Played for Laughs.
Overall?
How's he looking?
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Catching up soon, but yeah, Ghoul has multiple people who can fit. Kisho Arima is probably the biggest for next.