During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Ah okay I get it, so it's like with Game of Shadows Moriarty who snaps way too easily and only pretends to be calm and collected.
Yeep, look like I'm still learning
Edited by Snowy66 on Jan 15th 2022 at 2:01:46 AM
Now for my second candidates from Practical Cats
The Characters
Mungojerrie and Rumpelteazer from the poem of the same name
Mungojerrie and Rumpelteazer were a very notorious couple of cats.
As knockabout clowns, quick-change comedians, tight-rope walkers and acrobats
They had an extensive reputation. They made their home in Victoria Grove—
That was merely their centre of operation, for they were incurably given to rove.
They were very well known in Cornwall Gardens, in Launceston Place and in Kensington Square
They had really a little more reputation than a couple of cats can very well bear.
If the area window was found ajar
And the basement looked like a field of war,
If a tile or two came loose on the roof,
Which presently ceased to be waterproof,
If the drawers were pulled out from the bedroom chests,
And you couldn't find one of your winter vests,
Or after supper one of the girls
Suddenly missed her Woolworth pearls:
Then the family would say: 'It's that horrible cat!
It was Mungojerrie—or Rumpelteazer!'—And most of the time they left it at that.
Mungojerrie and Rumpelteazer had a very unusual gift of the gab.
They were highly efficient cat-burglars as well, and remarkably smart at a smash-and-grab.
They made their home in Victoria Grove. They had no regular occupation.
They were plausible fellows, and liked to engage a friendly policeman in conversation.
When the family assembled for Sunday dinner,
With their minds made up that they wouldn't get thinner
On Argentine joint, potatoes and greens,
And the cook would appear from behind the scenes
And say in a voice that was broken with sorrow:
'I'm afraid you must wait and have dinner tomorrow!
For the joint has gone from the oven—like that!'
Then the family would say: 'It's that horrible cat!
It was Mungojerrie—or Rumpelteazer!'—And most of the time they left it at that.
Mungojerrie and Rumpelteazer had a wonderful way of working together.
And some of the time you would say it was luck, and some of the time you would say it was weather.
They would go through the house like a hurricane, and no sober person could take his oath
Was it Mungojerrie—or Rumpelteazer? or could you have sworn that it mightn't be both?
And when you heard a dining-room smash
Or up from the pantry there came a loud crash
Or down from the library came a loud ping
From a vase which was commonly said to be Ming—
Then the family would say: 'Now which was which cat?
It was Mungojerrie! AND Rumpelteazer!'—And there's nothing at all to be done about that!
Magnificence
According to the poem, duo are "highly efficient cat burglars", and whenever they commit a theft, the general reaction is that people would realize it was them, but nothing could really be done about it. Also, they seem to be Affably Evil as they "were plausible fellows, and liked to engage a friendly policeman in conversation"
Bastardry
Like Macavity, they are cunning thieves who are able to get away with their crimes, and they also don't do anything that harms their magnificence
The Competition
Macavity's poem has the following verse:
And they say that all the Cats whose wicked deeds are widely known
(I might mention Mungojerrie, I might mention Griddlebone)
Are nothing more than agents for the Cat who all the time
Just controls their operations: the Napoleon of Crime!
I'm not sure if it means anything - it could be TS Eliott referring to a prior poem, but it also implies that the duo are nothing compared to Macavity. However, they don't butt heads, and nothing else implies that the poems take place in the same continuity.
Final Verdict
Could they count - or not? I'll leave it at that
Edited by magnumtropus on Jan 15th 2022 at 2:16:44 PM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Jiaying, Mungojerrie and Rumpelteazer
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Lex
Yes to the OG Cats stuff and Jiaying. No to Luthor.
The Moron
Mungo and Rumple are also easy keepers from the poems, nicely done! They come close in the stage show, but immediately after their song, the other Jellicles manage to steal their money back from them pretty easily - kinda undermines the whole song pretty much immediately ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
@some: The reason why people were surprised that this show has a keeper is that it is legendary for being a drug trip wrapped in an Excuse Plot with barely any narrative or even sensical things happening, so to get a keeper from it (much less such a surprisingly easy one) is unexpected to say the least.
I gotta say, I was not expecting an insane EP I made while I was tired beyond belief to inspire two more and make people want to check out the movie to double-check it for a keeper
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jan 15th 2022 at 9:34:15 AM
The MILF Virus
Mungo and Rumpleteazer
I have to ask, do you think a candidate being the victim of slapstick antics is allowed if said candidate is part of a comedy show and the slapstick only happens in filler episodes, whereas when the episode is actually serious the candidate fits this trope to a T?
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
The Moron
Grunkle Stan and Professor Arc have been approved on those exact grounds - as long as their off-the-clock slapstick doesn't impact their serious plotting then they're fair game
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jan 15th 2022 at 9:31:53 AM
Gonna abstain on the poems for the reason I abstain on songs.
Swan, Chumley, Macavity (play), Optimus Prime (fucking Michael Bay man), Jiayang
Luthor.
Was talking about this with 43 recently, we do have Butt-Monkey/MB crossovers. Like CM/MB crossovers they are pretty rare, and a situation where you don't want the Butt-Monkiness to be too much, otherwise that hurts the magnificence. But yes we have Grunkle Stan, MCU!Loki, Professor Arc.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Goku Black
Mungo and rumple
Lies and Violence!
Masai, Swan, Chumley, Macavity, Optimus goddamn Prime, other Macavity, Jiaying, Mungo and Rumple.
To what extent does immaturity affect one's MB status? Is it similar to the relation between Butt-Monkey and MB?
The Moron
I'd assume so, yeah - for instance, I've got a candidate in mind who's rather immature, but it never gets in the way of her effectiveness, she just happens to be a badass while also being rather childish. Then there's somebody like (as an incredibly extreme example) Joffrey Baratheon, whose immaturity is a defining feature of his character and makes him a dumbass in the process.
I'm Sad Frogerson.
Okay, so here's my write-up for Chumley:
- The Transformers: "Prime Target": Lord Chumley is a big-game hunter who uses his vast fortune to hunt down military vehicles and technology. After stealing a Soviet jet during a test-flight, Chumley decided to add the head of Optimus Prime to his vast collection. With the help of his butler Dinsmore, Chumley lured the Autobots into numerous traps scattered across the city and held them hostage in various Death Traps to lure Optimus to his castle fortress. Optimus was forced to go through the numerous traps laid out for him, including a monster Chumley had captured in the jungles of Borneo. He was able to take out Blitzwing and Astrotrain when they interrupted his fight with Optimus, wanting the honour of finishing Prime off for himself. Despite being a normal human, Chumley proved to be one of the more resourceful villains the Autobots have faced.
Showtime!
...Weird night, huh
Anyways, to Optimus, both Macavities, and R+M (and Jiayang)
to Lex
Roman, Masai, Swan, Chumley, play Macavity, Optimus Prime, book Macavity, Jiaying, Mungojerrie and Rumpleteazer.
Totally contingent on the situation, being a Butt-Monkey might totally reduce a character to a joke or it might emphasize some kind of Beware the Silly Ones Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass situation. These questions are hard to answer like we can quantify the "degree" to which it impacts one, you've really just gotta look at the work you've got in mind and feel out the tone and scenario.
There is also a third potential keeper from Practical Cats - Griddlebone from Growltiger's Last Stand. Here is the poem for reference, but I'm not really sure enough to do a fully fledged EP.
Growltiger himself doesn't count, since he lacks magnificence, is too much of a bastard, and is ultimately tricked at the end. Griddlebone is mentioned in Macavity's poem as one of his agents, though here is seems that she wasn't behind the Siamese Cat attack - according to the poem, "she gave a screech, for she was badly skeered" and fled, leaving Growltiger alone to walk the plank.
I'd appreciate further opinions
Edited by magnumtropus on Jan 15th 2022 at 7:47:23 PM
Well. You lot have been busy with some unusual picks. Me likey!
An amused yes to Optimus Face Taker Prime, Macavity in both Musical and Literature form (I was gonna ask about the TS Elliot book of poems but fortunately I did not have to), Chumley and Mungojerrie and Rumpelteazer (had to copy and paste those names.
for the Roman, Masai, Swan, Lord Chumley, Macavity, Goddamn Optimus Prime,* Macavity, Jiaying, Mungojerrie and Rumpelteazer.
for Lex Luthor.
* = Seriously, does anyone else get Frank Miller's Batman vibes from this Optimus Prime?
Edited by TellAll111 on Jan 15th 2022 at 9:05:27 AM
Nope, I think the writers were blissfully unaware of the implications of his allowing the Decepticons to attack. The wiki trying to justify it with personal interpretation and making reference to travel time the film doesn't acknowledge or bother to cite a source makes me think he's a keeper by a hilarious lack of attention from the director.
The Moron
Yeah, I can’t believe I’m saying this, but… it looks like Optimus keeps on complete accident, but a keeps a keep
Goku Black
Fun fact Peter Cullen tried to get them to remove the "We'll Kill them all" line as he felt it was too much but got overruled.
I think well him being ruthless as time passed was intended. The whole let a city get slaughtered as a lesson really wasn't meant to be what people took from that despite it....literally being what happens
So uh who wants to do Quientessa. She's probably the legit only other keeper from those films.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Not sure how much Megatron does when he eventually becomes Galvatron, Sentinel is probably too fanatical and Agent Burns is probably too mistrusting toward Transformers and then too heroic when push comes to shove, so yeah, Quintessa's the only real one with a chance. I rewatched The Last Knight a couple times a few months ago, so I MIGHT do her. That said, please don't hold me too it.
With it all laid out now, she's not too broken after all. Happy to Jiaying. As for Raina, her problem is not really smugness, it's that she's in over her head and after her transformation, too broken to function.
Yes to Mungojerrie and Rumpleteazer. No to Lex.
Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Jan 15th 2022 at 1:12:17 PM
If it was just a Kneel Before Zod situation, I would be way more lenient, but the fact that Luthor's biggest reaction in that scene is dropping the well-spoken attitude when Superman is trying (and already failing) to resist, and to snarl, slap and demand through screaming and forcefully pushing to Superman to his knees to "Bow, you alien swine!" feels a bit too heavy in Jerkass ego trip for me, and the fact that he has a trend of losing his cool throughout both episodes (sort of mimicing his DCAU counterpart before the Unlimited series) really just pushes home, to me, that he's more of a high-functioning Smug Snake who acts magnificent when things are going his way, but also sinks to really undignified moments of anger when things don't go immediately his way.
Edited by Ravok on Jan 15th 2022 at 1:36:30 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!