During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Given the comedic tone is there enough distinction to Olenna’s presentation here to propose her? I grasp her actions are the same but we’ve got a number of keepers in later adaptations because a tonal shift made them charming in a completely different way.
The Moron
I mean... maybe? There is actually one extra detail that might make her worth it besides the fact that it's all in song - Mace is Adapted Out, so she takes his place on the Small Council and takes her Frame-Up job one step further and actively votes Tyrion guilty. I've got nothing to lose, so I can whip up a proposal for her as well.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Aug 24th 2021 at 7:40:53 AM
I mean from that I’d probably say yes, can’t really imagine anything preventing her from counting.
Alright ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Shae. I concur with 43 that Olenna might be worth an EP.
Sure on doing an EP for that Olenna. Bull and I after all got up the FS of the Tim Burton Catwoman recently where all that was different about her was she had another scene in another video where she did a couple more things, so why not?
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Aug 24th 2021 at 5:11:03 AM
The Moron
Alright, I've got nothing to lose, so let's give another shot to an old friend of ours - the Queen of Thorns herself.
Who is Olenna Tyrell? What does she do?
Olenna is introduced right at the beginning of Act II, right around when she's introduced in the main series. She makes a good entrance by shaking the Sand Snakes off of her son Loras, then witnesses Joffrey threaten to kill eight kittens after being taken by the Royal Naptime Enforcers (I swear I'm not making this up). After seeing Joffrey's stupidity and cruelty in person, Margaery tells her that's her husband, and Olenna just tells her to let Grammy sleep on it.
The next song is "Growing Concerned" ("Washington On Your Side"), which has the two lady Tyrells talking about how Olenna is gathering information on him while pretending to be senile like in canon. Margaery suggests talking to Sansa, his previous bride-to-be, so they offer her a comforting ear, getting her to open up about how monstrous he truly is. With this information, they decide "it might be nice if King Joffrey suddenly dies" and they'll need someone to frame - after all:
Every motherfucking rose comes with a Queen of Thorns!
The two of them give Sansa the hairnet with the crucial stone inside it, telling the audience to follow the hairnet and see where it goes. She's then present for Tyrion's wedding for Sansa but doesn't do much besides give Oberyn the finger and complain with everyone else about how George RR Martin makes his readers cry, reading pamphlets about the Red Wedding later on, and calling Joffrey a teenage dictator later on - basically, she sits in the background, waiting for the right moment, and of course, it eventually comes in the form of Joffrey's wedding.
At Joffrey's wedding during the song "The Groom When It Happened", Joffrey suddenly croaks from the poisoned wine, and since no one but Tyrion was ever near him, Cersei assumes it must have been him and accuses him. He's sent to trial, where Varys opens the door to his condemnation and then Shae closes it hard, but through it all, Olenna, who is one of the judges, just seems to be sleeping, waking up to say she thinks it was Tyrion after the trial has concluded. However, as Sansa and Littlefinger escape the capital, she asks Littlefinger who the assassin was -
And Olenna wakes up, throws off her powdered wig, says that "I might've been near the groom when it happened", and then Loras comes behind her and gives her sunglasses because why the hell not. We then get a nice solid 90 seconds of Olenna just dancing her butt off while singing about how she killed Joffrey, having killed the horrible king, ensured that her daughter remained queen in the process, and made sure the successor was a nine-year-old she could control, all in one fatal move.
With that, in every way that matters, she exits the musical, having gotten everything she wanted.
Is she Magnificent?
As she always is, Olenna is Obfuscating Stupidity personified, pretending to be a senile old woman who naps all the time to hide the devious mastermind underneath. To fit the play's wacky tone, she doesn't act a day over 30, openly flipping off her opponent Oberyn and easily shooing off the annoying Sand Snakes with the wave of her hand. By ensuring that she was nowhere near the groom when it happened, Olenna ensures that no one even remotely suspects her for Joffrey's murder, and since Mace is Adapted Out, she takes his place on the Small Council, meaning she becomes a juror on the murder she committed. And when we finally learn that it was her, oh boy does she take advantage and get the opportunity to sing all about how genius her plan was, ending the show having gotten everything she wanted in the end. While her actions themselves are very similar to their canon counterparts, how they're presented couldn't be any more different, and it is pure and simply glorious. I think the fact that the audience started cheering when she even showed up, much less when she finally reveals herself as the assassin, speaks enough to her charm.
If you wanna see the song with all her dancing glory yourself, it's 45:11 in this video. There's also the song where they conspire the assassination at 12:54 in the same video.
Is she a Bitch?
As per canon, while killing Joffrey isn't a bad thing in the slightest, she does frame Tyrion for it and even goes so far as to vote him guilty herself, alongside letting Shae bring Sansa's name into the trial without objection. Easy yep.
Final verdict?
Really, there's nothing keeping her off the list, it's only if she's unique enough to go up, and between the unique presentation and taking her biggest canon act one step further, she just might. As always, I leave it up to you - what do you think?
I think she and Shae are both fine going up.
This is making me want to do that Sean Bean effort post from Sean Bean Saves Westeros I was thinking about a ways back. Eh maybe someday if the fic ever gets done.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
I hate spoilers
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
There's a Tv Tropes page for that.
Edited by 227someguy on Aug 24th 2021 at 9:00:01 AM
Everyone look at my sandbox
That song is more than enough to distinguish her. Easy yes.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
Yes to Grandfather and Jimmy and FUCK. YES to Stendahl. Martian Chronicles is a good candidate for my literal all-time favorite book and I was hoping he'd come through here.
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
The Moron
And to conclude my productive day, we're back to Angel with another incredibly tentative one that I just want to knock out to see what people think. Now, we're on "The Trial".
Who is the Valet? What does he do?
The Valet is a leader of another set of trials, much like Lloyd, who Angel turns to for help restoring Darla's life (she's dying of syphilis). Angel takes a leap of faith by jumping into an empty pool to go to his dimension, only to find the Valet standing there. He compliments Angel's faith, then says it's time to test his valor, bringing Darla along to serve as his collateral - if he completes the Trials then Darla gets her life, but if Angel fails, she dies instantly. With the rules laid out, the Valet lets Darla relax with an iced beverage, then apologizes for any miscommunication and says that life is the bargain there, and now Darla's has been placed in the balance.
With this the Valet says there will be three challenges, but what they actually are are for Angel to discover - though he originally doesn't offer help, Angel only asks if anyone has ever asked for it before, and he gives a hint. The first trial should be easy - just walk through a gate that opens - but he says that he doesn't have information about the second and third, saying that no one's ever gotten there before. Of course, he doesn't tell Angel the "catch" of trial one, saying that would be telling, but with that, he wishes Angel luck.
Naturally, the first trial involves a demon coming through the gate - a demon that can regenerate, so even though Angel bisects it, the Valet doesn't open the gate until Angel bisects it again and then chains the two parts up separately. Through this trial, though, the Valet is standing in a separate room, already complimenting Angel for lasting twice as long as others at 17 seconds. Darla asks to see what's happening, so the Valet complies, spiritually connecting them and making her see and experience every feeling, emotion, and bit of pain Angel feels through the trials.
When Angel actually does defeat the demon, he moves on to the second trial, all while the Valet assures Darla that he has no hard feelings about this contest one way or the other - "do you?" While munching on a cookie, he assures Darla he doesn't want Angel dead or alive because the journey is all that matters here, and where it leads isn't his business. Angel then has to walk through a hall of crosses, and given that the Valet had previously told Angel to remove his shoes, it burns him up but he makes it through in the end. The Valet remarks that Angel's quite remarkable, then moves on to the third trial - he chains Angel up and faces him with a wall of stakes, telling him the third trial is death.
He goes on about how for Darla to live, Angel needs to die for the sake of balance, though he apologizes for any discomfort, and though he goes to the switch for the wall of stakes, he gives Angel the chance to pray if he wants to. He offers Angel the chance to simply walk away - he's earned that much - because Angel needs to give him permission for him to pull the lethal lever. He then asks Angel a series of questions, asking why he's so desperate to have Darla back in the world when he can save so many people himself - after all, it's only a matter of time before she realizes she can't save herself. Even when Angel acknowledges that she can't promise him anything and the Valet confirms this verbally, Angel still wants to go ahead, so the Valet reluctantly pulls the lever.
Except because this show isn't only 30 episodes long, it was all a Secret Test of Character. In essence, the Valet offered him every reason to leave that he could think of, wanting to ensure that the choice to save Darla's life was the one he truly wanted and that he had the strength of character necessary to make that decision. With this, the Valet moves to cure Darla's illness - except he comes across an unexpected problem: Darla's already living by supernatural means, meaning that the Valet can't actually do anything to help her. After explaining this to a fairly furious Angel, the Valet simply takes his leave, apologizing for not being able to do anything after all and disappearing with a remorseful look at the doomed pair.
Is he Magnificent?
Much like Lloyd, while he does run the Trials and there's no indication that he can literally change them, he still makes personal choices that either make the Trials easier or harder for the person taking them, in this case Angel. He originally doesn't offer any help and when he does he gives incomplete information, even lying about not knowing what the second and third trials are just to rub in the fact that no one's ever gotten there before. By having Angel remove his shoes, he ensures that the second trial has the harshest effects, since he's making Angel essentially walk on hot coals in bare feet. By connecting him and Darla and then not telling him, he accomplishes what Angel spent weeks doing - he gets Darla to accept her fate, since she now realizes the strength of Angel's emotions towards her and just how much pain he's willing to endure for her (it's a shame Lindsey and Drusilla have something to say about that). Through it all, he's as polite as you'd expect a Ghost Butler to be, offering Darla a drink and genuinely complimenting Angel as he completes his trials. He also pulls out all the stops in the third trial, pulling out every single reason why Angel should live that he can think of to test his character, keeping the act up until the last possible second and lying his ass off the whole time, to the point that both Angel and Darla think he's going to die. He then tries to keep his deal, but when he literally can't, he departs with the sad knowledge that he couldn't help Angel after all. Basically, as much as he can't change the trials themselves, he personally makes them as hard as he possibly can to ensure that the person taking the trials has the appropriate character to earn that second life, doing everything he can to make sure he's giving the gift to someone who actually deserves it and never losing his polite demeanor all the while.
Is he a Bastard?
He runs the trials, which have killed plenty of people before and almost kill Angel himself, the second trial is pure torture specifically designed for vampires, and the third convinces Angel that he's literally about to die. However, the trials are designed to ensure that the person who is asking for the extra life actually deserves it, ensuring that they have the strength of character to earn their second chance, and both before he "kills" Angel and after he realizes he can't actually help Darla, the Valet gets genuinely remorseful about what must come next, viewing Angel as a Worthy Opponent who earned his reward but can't have it. Again like Lloyd, he's got a balance.
Final verdict?
I think he was at least worth a shot, but as always I'll understand if others disagree - what about you?
Honestly I'm seeing much more cunning here than I did for Lloyd. He's an easy for me.
Lies and Violence!
to Valet
The Draftsman of Doom
Okay guys don't forget Olenna.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
to Olenna
RIP Toriyama
'Yes' to Shae, Olenna and Valet there, good work today!
This'll be a quicker KND baddie even though he's a recurring baddie for the show, just because he's pretty easy to summarize:
Who is Captain Stickybeard? What makes him a candidate?
A sweet-toothed pirate out to amass the greatest treasure trove of candy the world has ever known, Captain Stickybeard—not the only loud-mouthed braggart of a pirate with hidden depths voiced by my man Mark Hamill who I'll be bringing through here—functions as one of the more recurring baddies of KND, using his flagship capable of sailing the suburbs to travel around looting candy from children.
Throughout his appearances, Stickybeard concocts truly diabolical schemes to obtain candy. In his introduction episode, Stickybeard raided Sector V's hideout and incapacitated the entire group of KND to steal their stash of candy, kidnapping Numbuh 5 as a hostage in the process. Even when her allies track him down and raid the ship, Stickybeard defeats Numbuh 5 in combat and nearly secures his rule, only for the ship to get knocked off-course thanks to his crew and resulting in a crash that costs Stickybeard his candy stash.
In another episode, Stickybeard disguises his ship as a house on Halloween and uses Trick or Treating to lure kids in for him to pilfer their candy, with this scheme fooling even agents of KND. When he's eventually beaten with a bag of false candy, Stickybeard just grumbles in annoyance that yet another stash of candy has been lost.
Not regulated purely to villainy though, Stickybeard has functioned as something of an ally to KND as well. When Sector V, while fleeing from Stickybeard, wind up crash landing in the Asparagus Sea and nearly all eaten alive by the mutant vegetables, Stickybeard comes to their rescue, remarking that though they may be enemies, "I'll be dipped in chocolate before I let a blasted vegetable do anyone in!"
In yet another outing, Stickybeard allies with Numbuh 5, who he shows great Villain Respect to throughout the show and pulls We Can Rule Together with often. Informed by 5 that Stickybeard's old captain, the undead Black John Licorice, is hoping to sacrifice the life of Heinrich Von Marzipan to restore himself to life, Stickybeard teams up with 5 to save Heinrich out of both respect and an aversion to Black John himself, using a clever ploy of a sugar consumption duel to distract Black John while they outwit him, ensure his curse of undead living continues forever, and save Heinrich.
Even in smaller cameo appearances, Stickybeard maintains a dangerous but fun personality, often serving as one of the greater threats when a villain team-up happens and rarely taking any loss personally.
Is Stickybeard magnificent?
Definitely, it's Mark Hamill going Large Ham for a crazy pirate, something he's got great track records with! Stickybeard is a fun, entertaining baddie who gives KND harsh fights and outwitting in most of his appearances, saves their lives in one episode out of standards, and outright pulls an immensely successful Enemy Mine with Numbuh 5 to take down Black John, Stickybeard never begrudging her for her many interferences in his schemes while continuing to offer her a place on his crew.
Is he a bastard?
You know the old adage "like taking candy from a baby"? Stickybeard breathes this. His entire character is "sail through the suburbs to swipe candy from literal children," and he's damn good at it. But it fits perfectly in the show's ridiculous tone, and Stickybeard isn't played up as some major Jerkass who Would Hurt a Child as Nightmare Fuel or something, he's just a goofy pirate who steals candy and is entertaining all the while ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Final Verdict?
Aye aye, captain.
Edited by Ravok on Aug 24th 2021 at 8:43:58 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Yes to Olenna and Valet and a big ahoy to Stickybeard!
Gotta love Jaws!
to Shae, Olenna, Valet and Stickybeard.
The Draftsman of Doom
Yo ho ho, and a bottle of rum to Stickybeard.
Rawr.
Stickybeard.
Yes to Shae, Olenna, the Valet, and Stickybuns.
to Stickybeard
He doesn't have her at crossbow point when she's insulting him - once she's done and he has his "woe is me" thing, he picks it up and shoots her, but he doesn't have it before she starts talking or during. The play makes a point of highlighting other characters' negative qualities to absurd degrees - like Littlefinger drawing a picture of him and Sansa kissing on a boat, Roose bragging about the Robb-direwolf head thing, Cersei and Joffrey being Cersei and Joffrey, Oberyn still getting too close to Gregor like an idiot, Ned being an idiot hero who gets backstabbed in less than ten minutes, that sort of thing. By contrast, Shae is pragmatic, doing her best to not get herself in powerful people's bad graces yet still conning Tyrion to her benefit, and ultimately plays a pivotal role in getting him arrested compared to the likes of Cersei. It's very much the situation where while everyone is playing their big moves like the Red Wedding, Shae goes the Small Role, Big Impact route and makes the small move with the big consequence.
By the end of the play, the only people that come out looking any measure of intelligent are her, Olenna (who is pretty much identical to canon but has a bomb ass solo after killing Joffrey), and Tywin (who is as psychopathic as ever with the Red Wedding and dies on the shitter), so by contrast, she, Jon Snow, Olenna, and Davos are pretty much the only people who look any measure of sane when all is said and done - of the three others, she's plays along with Olenna's scheme to her benefit and never meets Jon and Davos.
It helps that she doesn't really go head to head with any of the other schemers except for Tyrion, who she cons out of a house and ultimately gets a major one over on by essentially attaching herself to Olenna's scheme before Tyrion just shoots her in a fit of rage. I’ll also point out that while the play calls him out a lot, he’s still not an idiot - he still has his canon Myrcella gambit as well as the Wildfire plan against Stannis, so he’s not completely dumb. Between her pragmatism, Small Role, Big Impact points, and her ability to see all of the flaws in his plans and always call them out, she stacks up for her time.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Aug 24th 2021 at 9:04:26 AM