During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Lizzid people!
Yes there.
You double posted, but ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
President Jimmy.
Edit: You realized that just before I posted!
Edited by jjjj2 on Aug 23rd 2021 at 12:28:11 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
The Moron
And another yep there!
I hate spoilers
I wasn't expecting him. for the president guy.
Yes to Jimbo.
to Jimmy
Batman, Grandfather, Naseri and Jimmy
Yes to Naseri and Jimmy. Is Mr Boss one of the candidates? He seems like an easy fit based on my memory of the show.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
RIP Toriyama
Mr. Boss I don't feel quite hits, sadly. His first episode has his plans partially foiled by (untrained, non-KND) children just crawling all over him and his equipment while he rants and raves, and his later ones while not as much of a Humiliation Conga defeat, don't really go that far in making him notably intelligent or cunning. Another episode has him rather cowardly running away from an infuriated Numbuh 3 while screaming "Run, men! Run like scared little girls!" Some humiliating defeats are fine for the show given its nature, but I don't quite think Mr. Boss contrasts the sheer amount of demeaning moments he goes through with enough intelligence or badass moments.
And for any curious, Big Bad Father comes really, very close to the trope, but two episodes primarily are what damage him: Z.E.R.O. and the finale.
- In Z.E.R.O., he's his usual brilliant self...until Grandfather comes around. Then Father becomes moping and depressed because his dad doesn't respect him, and while he does play a role in fighting Grandfather, when push comes to shove, Father actually is about to stand up to Grandfather in a badass The Gloves Come Off scene...only for Father to just get depressed again and literally shrug off the fight while sulking away to eat Rocky Road ice cream and grumble how he "hates everyone." It doesn't sound all that bad for a villain from this show, but in context it's pretty damn notable for the most seriously-played villain in the show to become so...that.
- In the finale, he actually partially redeems himself from the aforementioned flunking, with the story really reasserting what a deadly, dangerous threat he is, and the end reveal showing that he apparently manipulated and fooled the main characters of KND and the entire audience to gain information...only for an aftercredits, literal 10 second long scene to reveal the KND knew Father was manipulating them and, in an undisclosed way, fooled him back.
It's a shame because he's a genuinely hilarious, lethal threat for 99% of the show, but Z.E.R.O. greatly damaged his presence as is, and while I could have overlooked that if he had properly bounced back, when the finale actually does portray him as bouncing back, it still comes with the cost of him being revealed to have been (somehow) played for most of it, even if the details aren't given and he himself isn't shown suffering from the fooling. Together, even though they're nowhere near the levels of humiliation or degrading some baddies get up to, it's probably a bit too much.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Goku Black
James "Jimmy" Nixon Mc Garfield
to James "Jimmy" Nixon Mc Garfield
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yo, just dropping in to say I made a slight change to Magnificent Bastard Marvel Comics: I added Other continuities before the second folder, and changed the second folder to Examples. The way it was, it looked like EVERYTHING was from Earth-616.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Shame on Father and Mr Boss. The only other villain I KNOW for a FACT qualifies for this trope is the Toilenator.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Gotta love Jaws!
President Jimmy. Yeah, I knew Father didn't count. Shame really, he is probably my favorite villain in the series. Honestly though, there are quite a few other episodes that end with his humiliation so I don't think I ever truly considered him possible.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Don't even joke about that. Clearly, the Toilenator is a CM!
Edited by SatoshiBakura on Aug 24th 2021 at 10:24:23 AM
The MILF Virus
Jimmy
Unironically Toilenator actually shows in a few episode he could arguably be the most competent among the bad guys if he was more focus and serious.
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
The Moron
Alrighty, let's give another Angel guy a shot. This one is my most tentative yet, but I can tell that if I don't discuss him now I'm just going to want to later. Away we go with one of the bad guys from "Guise Will Be Guise".
Who is the imposter? What does he do?
The imposter is named such because he has pulled a Kill and Replace on a demon known as the T'ish Magev, a swami who Lorne sends Angel to when the situation with Darla starts getting bad. Though originally seeming to be just some bumbling redneck, the imposter very quickly reveals himself to be smarter than he looks. After complimenting Angel's car, he points out the irony of a vampire driving a convertible in such a sunny city, immediately asking him "why do you hate yourself?" He then deduces that it must be the appearance of the car if he's willing to risk his life every time he's in it, plus the fact that Angel got it black for no real reason. Angel tries to deflect by pointing out his lack of reflection, so the imposter responds that he does have a reflection: he's reflected in the people around him, and he wonders just what they see.
The imposter goes on to tell Angel that there are really two Angels - the real him, and the persona he's created. Though Angel tries to say it's not much of a persona, the imposter just counters by asking how many soldiers of the upcoming apocalypse use his hair gel (though he admits that if he's fighting soldiers of darkness, it'll need hold) then says that Angel can't triumph as long as he's fighting himself. He offers a spar, and through it the imposter keeps dressing him down, pointing out that he's holding back and when Angel says "it'll kill you", he points out the word "it", making Angel reveal his fear of letting the demon control him. In response, the imposter knocks Angel straight on his ass, asking if it actually is controlling him like he thinks it is.
That night, he makes a call to his boss Paul Lanier, revealing that he was hired to keep Angel there for the whole weekend and that he doesn't know if he can keep up the charade for much longer - after all, soon enough Angel's going to smell the real Magev's body. That night, the two have some fishing, and Angel finally opens up about the Darla situation. The imposter points out Angel's ambivalence - he simultaneously wants to punish her and thank her, and now it's turned into an obsession. The imposter can only offer the advice to get over her and move on to someone else, perhaps go on to break their heart just to get some form of closure. Angel then reveals the details of his curse, and when he can't quite answer "what kind of thing is it", the imposter tells him he needs to figure that out himself.
The next morning, Gunn arrives looking for Angel, and the imposter greets him warmly, telling him that Angel's inside - and when Gunn's back is turned, the imposter gives him the ol' one-two and knocks him out. Angel sees this and asks what the "lesson" was - the imposter says he's not Angel's friend and that he sensed danger, though when Angel asks where the real T'ish Magev is, he finally gives up the act. The imposter isn't that worried since he's standing out in the sun, but Angel shuts him up by grabbing their fishing rod, spearing him in the mouth, and bringing him in instead, telling the imposter that he's getting in touch with his inner demon just like he recommended the previous night.
However, when we see Angel next, we learn that Angel couldn't get the imposter to reveal the name of his boss, an act which delays the Fang Gang just long enough that the sacrifice the imposter was helping distract Angel from goes off perfectly - except for the fact that the sacrifice wasn't a virgin and the demon leaves peacefully. We never hear from the imposter again or learn what happened to him.
Is he Magnificent?
For a random bozo human, this guy is smart in a way very much like Holden Webster, managing to pass off as a swami and along the way completely rip Angel to his pieces and force him to confront himself in a way no one has before. Literally just from looking at his car, he makes a series of deductions about Angel's character that all hit close to home and eventually conclude with the knowledge that he hates himself, and during the resulting spar, he even manages to put Angel straight on his ass by taking advantage of that knowledge. When Gunn arrives and he gets outed, although Angel outsmarts him, Angel also reveals that the imposter never revealed who he worked for, which leaves the Fang Gang to deduce it and prevent it themselves - which, I will point out, they would have completely failed at if the demon hadn't denied the sacrifice herself. If the girl had been a virgin as expected, she would've died. Overall, for a random human antagonist who's pretending to be a smart and wise swami, the imposter plays the role perfectly, and though he's ultimately defeated, he doesn't give up enough to screw up the plan.
Is he a Bastard?
Killed the original demon to replace him, knocks Gunn unconscious presumably to kill him, misleading Angel to keep him away from the city at a crucial time for the sacrifice of an innocent? Yep there.
Any mitigating factors?
I really don't know what to think about his ending, to be honest. Basically, after he knocks Gunn out, Angel comes outside, but since it's the day, he can't get any closer. The imposter starts taunting him by basking in the sunlight, but when his back is turned, Angel grabs a fishing rod, swings it and hooks him by the mouth, then straight up reels him in to go vamp and get him to talk. On the one hand, yes that is very bad - it's clearly a moment of arrogance that costs him, and it really doesn't look good. On the other hand, embarrassing defeats are this franchise's bread and butter, and "hooked by a fishing rod to be lured in for interrogation" isn't that bad compared to "staked so hard your corpse is still standing up" or "kidnapped and forced back to your dimension by your overbearing demon parents". Plus, at the end of the day, the guy's a regular human, so freaking out in pain after getting a fish hook in the mouth isn't that bad, plus we learn that offscreen, he recovered by never giving up his boss' name. That last part in particular ensures that the Fang Gang actually don't get to the sacrifice in time, and if the sacrifice had been a virgin as expected, they would have completely lost. Basically, the loss isn't that great, but it's such a unique situation overall and his offscreen refusal to talk ends up sealing the deal for the gang that I'm willing to argue it's not enough to disqualify him outright.
Final verdict?
I think a yes, but I understand if I'm alone here - what about you?
His refusal to talk I think just barely pushes him over for me. Leaning The Imposter.
Woagh
Sure to the sus boi Imposter, sounds like he at least make the most of his situation.
Goku Black
Imposter.
I can't wait till we get to arc villains or big bads from here. Lindsey, Darla, etc.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Ah fair didn't remember that. Still Lindsey at least should be an easy keep.
Edited by miraculous on Aug 24th 2021 at 9:09:24 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Darla is party to at least three rapes (Holtz’s wife, the Romani girl she gives to Angel and Drusilla herself), she’s a gleeful child murderer and is a full participant in what happens to Holtz. She ain’t keeping for this one
Edited by Lightysnake on Aug 24th 2021 at 9:06:17 AM
'Yes' to Naser
Next up from KND!
Who is James "Jimmy" Nixon McGarfield? What makes him a candidate?
Tom Kenny putting on his heaviest southern accent as a corrupt class president named after 4 U.S. Presidents? Is that a home run or what!
Functioning as the beloved school president of Gallagher Elementary, Jimmy's first major episode sees him running for reelection, continuing to charm the school to win election for another semester. In a quest to get to City Hall safely and supposedly change school rules to be more beneficial for kids, Jimmy drafts KND to be his personal bodyguards on the trip, knowing enemies will be on all sides.
Putting on airs as a scared politician, Jimmy successfully makes the journey to City Hall, the KND happy with the accomplishment...only for Jimmy to reveal he's gone back on his word, making school days worse as he has allied with Father to oppress the school.
Jimmy reigns over the school for plenty more time through the series, until his latest major appearance...having donned a pure-black outfit and now being a major Darth Vader Expy, Jimmy forcefully rounds up all kids off school on a snow day to force them to attend school, using giant AT-AT-esque school bus walkers to catch them. And before this entire event? Jimmy used his assistant Anna to infect Numbuh One, Nigel, of KND with the cold, leaving him bedridden and off his best game.
Soon enough, Jimmy reveals why he's rounded up the entire school: so that they can bear witness to him crowning his "Queen" of the school, Nigel's girlfriend Lizzie. And though Lizzie is, uh, resistant to the idea, Jimmy intends to use a helmet to brainwash her into loving him, and begins the process...though KND tries to save the day, Jimmy outwits and traps them all except Nigel, who gets into a
lightsaberbroomstick duel with Jimmy.Using both personal skill and stage technology against Nigel, Jimmy actually wins, the day seeming lost for our heroes...only for Anna to be revealed to have turned coat to ally with KND and take down Jimmy's current scheme, the girl truthfully in love with Jimmy and hoping to prevent him from being with anyone else. When Jimmy realizes this information while they're both being taken in by KND? He cheerfully expresses how impressed he is at Anna's treachery and obvious care for him, and happily goes peacefully into prison with her so maybe they can "both learn to love.", much to KND's disgust at the mushyness lol
Is he magnificent?
Absolutely, his first appearance is entirely consisting of him appearing to be a goodhearted man who plays KND like a fiddle, then he spends most of his second outing outdoing them as well. He wins completely until Anna turns against him, and even then after some shock at how he could have been beaten, he learns the truth and becomes a Graceful Loser who ultimately ends the series in a winning state.
The only real possible issue is that he's a bit more prone to anger and shouting in his final appearance, but I think the fact that he's parodying Darth Vader (down to only becoming so evil because he wants someone to love him![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]")
) and he still spends most of the time a Faux Affably Evil southern charmer, he's fine on this.
Is he a bastard?
He extends school days for crying out loud, he's a monster!
What? You need more? Ugh, fine, he also makes school as a whole harder and is a partner of Father, plus there's the whole trying to force And Now You Must Marry Me on Lizzie and forcing a bunch of kids to attend his "coronation" of her down to chaining them up, and is willing to beat down KND when they cross him.
And before anyone asks, no, the "forcing Lizzie to love him" isn't played seriously or like a creepy rapist. It's a very goofy brainwashing attempt to make her his "queen" while she still reacts with humor to the fact that he calls it the "Boyfriend helmet!"
Jimmy: "What? No!"
Final Verdict?
That's a Keep, methinks, my personal favorite from the show.
Edited by Ravok on Aug 23rd 2021 at 9:36:17 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.