During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
RIP Toriyama
A happy 'Yes' to Bloodsport!! 'Yes' to the latest demon, as well.
Yes, I am indeed tackling KND, actually gonna be my next big MB project. And while I'm not spoiling who all is coming through, I do think we'd all do well to remember the tone of the show and that a character being a bit of a meany-pants or outdone here and there is likely gonna be fine so long as they aren't flat-out humiliated—it's still a children's cartoon that's very over the top ridiculous in its content, so just make sure no one is jumping to conclusions on "definitely doesn't count" for any characters too quickly.
Edited by Ravok on Aug 20th 2021 at 11:54:41 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Bloodsport and the demon
Alright then. Can't wait to see what you have in store, because that show is a favorite of mine.
Demon.
Edited by SatoshiBakura on Aug 20th 2021 at 2:54:26 PM
Alright, I think I have a new candidate.
What's the work?
Pokémon Reset Bloodlines is a Peggy Sue fanfic for Pokémon: The Series. Rather than the new timeline being essentially the same as the old, there are differences from even before the Point of Divergence, one of them being certain familial relations. Our candidate today is very relevant to that fact.
Who is she? What has she done?
Belladonna Tyrian is a nomadic Poison-Heart Bloodliner with a luggage car's worth of baggage. Born and raised in the Old Cesspit, one of the worst neighborhoods in Gringy City, she grew up with no father and an abusive hoarder of a mother in a house so filthy it attracted Grimer that would literally eat the clothes off her back. As if that weren't bad enough, her mom turned out to also be a massive homophobe on top of everything else and kicked her out when she realized her daughter was a lesbian. (Though she ended up getting hers: she was sent to prison and is hated by the other inmates for what she did to her daughter).
Spending the next several years wandering, Belladonna encountered three other sapphic teenage technique Bloodliner girls whom she entered a polyamorous relationship with: Aurora Borealis, a painfully shy Ice Beam Bloodliner who was disowned by her father for being a Bloodliner; Vedia, a tech-savvy Shadow Sneak Bloodliner and Lonely Rich Kid whose parents effectively abandoned her and left her in the care of tutors; and Evanna Narec, a Power-Up Punch Bloodliner raised by a traveling martial artist who was actually a decent parent to her... up until he was killed by an angry mob, leaving her alone in the world. The four of them now travel the world together, making their way how they please and never staying in one place for too long.
One night, Aurora gets drunk and tells the other three about her father Tokiomi, which enrages Belladonna. The next day, she begins making plans to kill Tokiomi, but it won't be that easy, since he's undergoing treatment for lung cancer brought on by a lifetime of smoking. So she decides to go for an indirect method. Using her abilities, she begins amassing a huge army of Poison-types for a coming attack on the power plant supplying the clinic he's at, while also sending Vedia to covertly sabotage said clinic's backup power sources.
When all the pieces are in place, she executes her plan, taking over and shutting down the power plant, then sealing of the external entrances and continuing to occupy it until Tokiomi is dead, all while doing what they can to make it look like a spontaneous attack by angry wild Pokemon. When Ash and company notice the resulting Big Blackout, they head to the power plant to investigate. Seeing oddly-behaving Poison-types around the perimeter, they launch an assault, eventually becoming separated. Ash breaks into the control room where Belladonna and Aurora are situated, but they quickly capture him, and Belladonna is about to try and kill him... but then Aurora notices that the two look strikingly similar. After comparing their appearances and interrogating Ash (she can compel people to tell the truth), Belladonna decides that Ash is probably her long-lost half-brother.
Did I mention this chapter was a pretty big Wham Episode in the story? Because it is.
Belladonna and Ash talk for a while, up until Ash's Charizard arrives to save his trainer. Charizard and Belladonna fight briefly, but then Belladonna receives word that Tokiomi is dead. Belladonna recalls her Pokemon, and she and Aurora teleport out using Aurora's Shellder.
This, of course, isn't the last we see of her.
After seeing another teenager who looks like her and Ash on TV, and encountering yet another on the street, Belladonna decides something's up and starts investigating. Talking to the mother of a boy who looks like them, she decides to try and figure out their shared father's identity.
Later on, when Ash is kidnapped by Sabrina, his companions accidentally stumble across Belladonna and her party while trying to identify where he is. When Belladonna asks for and receives an explanation for why they're there, she quickly determines that he was probably captured by Sabrina. This figured out, she convinces them that their respective groups should team up to save Ash, with Belladonna personally punching out one of Sabrina's Pokemon with a Poison Jab. She lets them stay with her for the night and the subsequent morning, and this marks her last major activity for the time being.
Is she magnificent?
Yessir. She's got the brains to successfully carry out an elaborate murder scheme without it being traced back to her, and while she's passionate, she understands that being calculating and meticulous have their value, as shown by her setting things up well in advance and then giving the dominoes the push they need. Notably, her plan is completely successful despite factors she had no way of knowing about ahead of time. She also shows considerable skill at drawing accurate deductions based on evidence presented for her.
On the charm side, she's got it in spades. Darkly charismatic and commanding great respect, she's an Übermensch par excellence who makes a compelling Shadow Archetype to her younger half-brother. While she's often over-the-top in terms of emotion, it's in a very Doctor Doom kind of way, in that it enhances her magnetism rather than detracting from it.
What kind of bitch is she, and how much of one is she?
Well, she's an unapologetic criminal who's willing to kill people if it suits her and/or she personally dislikes them (with little concern about possible collateral damage), and she's admitted that she doesn't care all that much if human civilization collapses as long as it doesn't affect anyone she cares about. Overall, though, she's a textbook Anti-Villain who genuinely cares for her lovers and Pokemon, and she has plenty of humanizing moments. She admires Kyle Narec despite never meeting him and wishes she could adopt his last name as her own, she expresses sympathy for Ash when she realizes he's experienced loss, she spares a guard at the power plant because he's a loving husband and father (the kind of parent she wishes she had), she waited to execute her plan until Tokiomi was moved out of his hospital's cancer ward because she couldn't bring herself to commit indiscriminate mass murder against people who were sick through no fault of their own (killing people who ruined their own health through bad lifestyle choices was a bit easier to stomach), and she only went through with her plans because she genuinely believed Aurora wanted her father dead... unfortunately, she didn't know Aurora's abandonment issues prevented her from speaking up about her reservations.
Mitigating factors
There were two major reasons I was hesitant to suggest her before: her Mood-Swinger tendencies and her Fantastic Racism against baseline humans. But taking a closer examination, neither of them are actually as mitigating as they seemed to be at first. Yes, she's emotionally volatile, but it's not really portrayed in a way that genuinely makes her undignified; in fact, it actually helps to emphasize her charisma. As for her prejudices, they're more like Magneto's: they're not really blanket hatred or a belief in inherent superiority, just a belief that bloodliners are different, so they shouldn't be subject to human laws and separation would be better for humans and bloodliners alike. This belief is rooted in the experiences she and her companions have gone through, and also serves to make her a foil to the Bloodline King, who has more severe prejudices. What helps is that she doesn't have more mundane prejudices, and in fact corrects herself when she realizes something she's said might give the impression of sexism against men.
Verdict
I'm giving this girl a
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Aug 20th 2021 at 11:59:36 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Sure to Belladonna.
From The Originals:
- Klaus backup plan was a dark one, reminding everyone why he is a Magnificent Bastard who is more then brute strength.
- Esther in 2.03, moving constantly one step ahead of her two sons and showing them all which parent Klaus got his Magnificent Bastard genes from.
Okay I know Lighty is handling Mikeal. Klaus, as much as I love him, is not this trope. he has a lot of issues. Esther, I am unsure about. Either way permission to remove the potholes?
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Lies and Violence!
Belladonna.
The Kane Chronicles is a spin-off of the Percy Jackson series, focused on Egyptian gods instead of Greek ones.
So. These two kids, Carter and Sadie, are children of magicians in the House of Life — Egyptian wizards, basically. Wizards who don't like the Egyptian gods, which is a problem when Horus and Isis possess the two before they can get a grasp of, you know, what the fuck is going on. This one French guy in particular, Michel Desjardins, really hates their family, which is also a problem when he suddenly becomes leader of the House.
The Candidate
Set is the god of chaos, deserts, storms, and general evil. Originally a loyal lieutenant of the sun god Ra, Set became enraged when Isis forced him into retirement so her husband, Osiris, could become king of the gods. On Osiris' birthday, Set tricked him into getting into a coffin as a "game," before sealing him away. He tried to kill the pregnant Isis and her son, the reborn (he was originally her brother, just go with it) Horus, but was prevented by his wife Nephthys. Horus managed to track down the coffin, but Set just shattered it into pieces. Osiris never recovered, and while he was resurrected he was confined to the underworld. Horus eventually dethroned Set, and the cycle continued in the gods' next host bodies.
Eventually, Set, Isis, Horus, Osiris, and Nephthys were sealed away by the House. Carter and Sadie's dad, Julius, released them in a bid to reunite with his deceased wife. I already told you who Isis and Horus went into, Nephthys possessed a House magician named Zia who happened to be nearby, and Osiris went into Julius. Set immediately puts Osiris back in the coffin, before possessing Julius' nearby brother Amos.
Set begins preparing a "celebration" for his birthday, building a ritual pyramid to turn all of North America into a desert, with Osiris as the power source. However, the demon snake Apophis possesses one of his minions and tricks him into trying to expand its power to engulf the world.
While Amos introduces Carter and Sadie to the world of magic, Set forces him to sabotage his mansion's defenses so he can send a bunch of monsters after the twins, including the scorpion goddess Serqet. The rest of the book is the usual Riordan-style "fight a bunch of monsters while the villain plots in the background until the climax," with Set notably sending the crocodile god Sobek and his Set animal (whereas Ra and Horus are represented by birds and Sobek a crocodile, Set has an evil anteater thing) after the twins.
Another Riordan-style thing is weird dreams where the protagonist can see what everyone else is doing without needing to actually be there. Carter has a dream where he sees Amos get captured by Set, the god of evil greeting him with a french accent. This, of course, makes the twins suspect that Desjardins is Set's host, creating conflict when Zia accuses Amos instead.
Speaking of! Set-as-Amos saves the twins from Sobek. They're naturally suspicious, and Zia is adamant that they just kill him now, but care enough for him to trust and go along with his plan to sneak into Set's pyramid of evil. Amos tries to fight back, making it incredibly obvious that he's Set by using chaos magic, but it doesn't work and Set makes him use his own magic reserves for the spells. As such, when he finally reveals himself, they're in the place he's most powerful and their uncle is too weak to help them.
Now he can imprison all his siblings in the temple and create his death storm... except for one small problem. Zia, and therefore Nephthys, is just a clay replica — long story, go with it. Still, Set and Carter-as-Horus fight, and he only loses because Sadie-as-Isis uses his true name to beat him up. She proceeds to reveal Apophis' involvement, using the true name to make Set swear to behave himself while they deal with the serpent.
Set later appears after being summoned and trapped in a jar by servant of Apophis and resident evil ice cream man Vladimir Menshikov. He refuses to join with the snake, citing the fact that he doesn't really do second-in-command, but is nevertheless forced to tell Vladimir about the properties of Apophis' prison.
- Set: You might need a sacrificial victim! Maybe a young idiot magician who can't do a proper invisibility spell, like CARTER KANE over there!
Carter and Sadie fight the evil ice cream man, forced to free Set from his jar when they start losing. Vladimir is knocked out, but Set gleefully refuses to help stop his minions. He wishes the twins luck in surviving and the monster luck in eating them. Nevertheless, when Carter is injured he helps carry him outside. Set gives Sadie the location of the last scroll of the Book of Ra (McGuffin they need) in exchange for her giving up knowledge of his true name, departing in peace and throwing in some knowledge to help Carter in his search for the real Zia.
He pops up again at Ra's coronation, seemingly quite happy that his true king has returned even if he's a bit senile now. He also begins teaching Amos the path of chaos magic to prepare for the fight against Apophis, reassuring Carter that he's not trying to manipulate him again. During the final battle the two work in tandem, Set reluctantly complying with Amos' desire to not do things like strip the flesh from their enemies' bones.
Due to shenanigans after they beat Apophis, Ra has to leave again and Horus takes the throne. Set stands to his side on the coronation, looking amused and probably already plotting something.
Is he magnificent?
Set's a surprisingly good planner, successfully manipulating the twins and coming within seconds of victory even when using a tactic that they all saw coming.
There is of course the issue of him having been manipulated by Apophis all along, plus his subsequent Villainous Breakdown upon this revelation, but I think he recovers well enough. His next appearance has him easily force Sadie to give up her knowledge of his true name, and even when that leaves him in the perfect position to get revenge he doesn't harm them. His appearances after the first book generally have him as a trickster character — he'll pop up to annoy the heroes but is ultimately working towards helping save the world, his charisma and loyalty to Ra helping offset his more evil actions.
Is he a bastard?
The pyramid plan is intended to destroy the world in a horrific chaos storm, using his siblings as batteries. That may be a bit too heinous, but it's noted that this level of destruction usually isn't his thing and is chalked up to the serpent corrupting him.
Even after his Hazy-Feel Turn, he remains gleefully and unrepentantly evil, refuses to save the twins from danger, and while he never actively tries to harm them again he's still a troll who waits until the last second to warn them of giant monsters.
Verdict
I think he just barely edges out. Thoughts?
One question: How explicit is this fic? Is it just normal teenage girlfriend boyfriend stuff?
The Demon.
Leaning Set.
Edited by jjjj2 on Aug 20th 2021 at 4:06:54 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
to Belladonna and Set
Yes to Belladonna. Weaker yes to Set.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
There isn't any onscreen sex, if that's what you're asking.
Tentative to Set
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Aug 20th 2021 at 1:28:58 AM
Gotta love Jaws!
to the demon, Belladonna and Set.
Yes to Belladonna then.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Goku Black
Set
Tbf to heinousnessnes. This is Riordon-verse where villains frequently attempt to annihilate the whole plant.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Belladonna & Set
Alright, got an MB I've been sitting on for a long time, too...also, if nobody minds? Think I'll discuss the Green Knight. And yes to Belladonna and Set
What's the work?
Jackie Brown was one of Quentin Tarantino's first movies, an adaptation of Elmore Leonard's novel Rum Punch as a Blaxploitation style film...the film is very atypical of QT's later style, such that it's barely recognizable as the same director when you first see it. Jackie herself is a tired middle aged flight attendant who acts as a smuggler. Caught in the act, she's used in a sting operation to take down the gun runner Ordell Robbie...and now, without further ado?
Who is Jackie Brown?
Played by none other than Blaxploitation star Pam Grier, Jackie is a flight attendant who makes ends meet by smuggling in money for criminal groups across the border. One of these is arms dealer and gun runner Ordell Robbie, played by Samuel L. Jackson...now, Jackie is caught early based on a tip with a bag of coke and money....now, Ordell has a method to dealing with loose ends: he has a bail bondsman named Max Cherry bond them out, before killing them. He has Jackie bailed out, but Jackie holds Ordell at bay, promising to smuggle in 550,000 of his money from across the border.
Ordell is working with two others: his girlfriend Melanie and his friend Louis, a burnt out druggie criminal....see, Jackie, though? Has a scheme going. She reports fifty thousand to the ATF so she can keep the 500K to herself, setting up a sting operation. She recruits Max to her side by offering him a cut of the cash (and also, their budding romantic feelings for one another)...she does a test run of a 10,000 dollar swap, whcih gives her the lay of the land for Ordell. Now, with the original courier out, Jackie is able to deceive the ATF and give Melanie, there as courier...giving her 40K to give to Ordell, but keeping the rest and telling the ATF Melanie stole the money.
Now, things with Louis and Melanie go south...Louis loses his temper and murders Melanie before going to meet Ordell ("....You shot Melanie? Is she dead?" "Pretty much." "What do you mean pretty much, that ain't no fucking answer?!")
Jackie knows Ordell knows she robbed him...he threatens Max and if Ordell goes down, he'll finger them both as accessories. "Jackie can tell me whatever story comes into her pretty little head as long as the end of that story, she gives me my fucking money.)
Jackie sets up a meeting with Ordell, Max as a hostage...and Jackie, having anticipated this, shouts "GUN!" ...her ATF handler, Nicolette, sitting in wait? Guns Ordell down. All charges against Jackie are dropped. She and Max part as he feels he's too old for adventure, while she takes off for Madrid.
Mitigating issues?
Lemme say this plain and simple: There is, IMO, zero argument for Jackie not keeping on plotting. Now, she's busted at the film's start based on stuff she couldn't fully anticipate but after this? She forms a plot to get rich based on playing Ordell and the ATF...now, unexpected variables pop up, but nothing that hinders Jackie's brilliance or ruthlessness. She steals a ton of money from under Ordell's nose, deceives the ATF just how much she's bringing in (they take 40,000 bucks, big deal). Jackie plays it so to a T and so well that it's one of the best con jobs.
Jackie's on the light side of 'bastard' I admit, but the fact is, she does play people rather ruthlessly and there's no higher purpose to what she's doing. She just...wants to steal 500K from the ATF and retire. She's not a killer or cruel at all, but...well, the film's not very high in the wanton killer department. Louis murders Melanie for annoying him and Ordell kills people for screw ups or being loose ends, but Jackie's definitely a lighter shade of black. She also gets Ordell killed for being a threat and loose end to her, but...hey, she's not really an evil person and she does care about Max, giving him a share of the money and parting on good terms.
She's not really a good person, but far from the worst around.
Conclusion?
Oh hell yes to Jackie Brown.
Edited by Lightysnake on Aug 20th 2021 at 2:32:55 AM
Jackie Brown
Goku Black
Brown
Think this is one of Tarantino's last probably.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
to Jackie Brown. One of Tarantino's most underrated movies, IMO.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Gotta love Jaws!
to Jackie Brown. Good film. I actually got a Tarantino candidate planned myself though whether it'll be at the end of this month or later is unclear. PM me for details on that if you're interested about that.
Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on Aug 20th 2021 at 2:50:52 AM
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
The Moron
And a yeah to Jackie
I have another potential Naruto one, but this is a bit odd... I'm honestly not sure if he'll keep, but here we go:
Who is ibiki Morino?
A Jonin of the Hidden leaf, Ibiki is a member of their ANBU blacks ops corps in charge of torture and interrogation with a reputation for it. Such that, in the past, Ibiki once cornered a group of Hidden Mist ninja for their hidden codes, prompting Kisame Hoshigaki to slaughter his own comrades because they'd talk if Ibiki got his hands on them.
Ibiki is a master of breaking people psychologically, understanding human minds like almost nobody else....at a certain point, Ibiki was hideously tortured, hiding a bald head full of burn scars and holes with his hands implied to be even more horrifically mangled. Assigned as the proctor of the Chunin exams, Ibiki is given free reign to design his own test...
In order to weed out the students, Ibiki presents as stern, cold and downright nasty while presenting a test with very complicated questions that no Genin-level ninja should be able to answer and gives instructions: you get caught cheating 5 times? You're out. So is your team...which reveals the secret purpose of the test: Not to see if you know the answers but how well you get away with spying. Ibiki has placed in two ringers with the right answers and each ninja is left to try to figure it out with their special skills. One ninja, Kankuro, actually uses one of his puppets as a fake proctor and Ibiki makes it clear through a metaphor that he knows this regardless.
Once the time limit is done, there's a tenth question: anyone who still remains is given a choice: they can stop before the brutal question and fail with their entire team. OR they can attempt it and should they fail to get it right then the team fails and can never ever apply to be shinobi again...the psychological strain is immense, with many of the class resigning...
Which also leaves Naruto, a total dunce in books, at a loss...but Naruto, then slamming his hand down, declares he'll be Hokage regardless and dares Ibiki to give him the question, renewing everyone's confidence. Realizing nobody will quit now, Ibiki gives them a moment and happily reveals: everyone there passes.
It was all a test to determine their guts because Shinobi have to take risks. Ibiki informs them of his own history with torture and then sees them off for their next exam, before collecting papers...and sees Naruto's exam is entirely blank and he banked everything on the 10th question, making him chuckle to himself at what an interesting kid Naruto is.
Mitigating issues?
Okay, the manipulation part? Yeah, Ibiki's got it. In. Freaking. SPADES. The entire first stage of the Chunin exam is Ibiki's design, with him setting up the exam to test the students and determine their skills...but the Tenth Question is kind of a masterpiece of part 1 Naruto with Ibiki just pressuring the students to see who's got what it takes to be a ninja.
The issue is the bastard part. Now, in the context of a lighter series, I'd say Ibiki's mental breaking and even torture of the students (and it's made clear he is trying to break them with that), would be enough, but Naruto has some brutal, harsh stuff. This aside, though, Ibiki is the head of torture and interrogation and it is made abundantly clear this is a guy who has done some serious shit. Notably Kakashi, hearing his name, and being no saint of a teacher himself in pressuring students, is horrified to hear Ibiki is in charge and refers to him as "that sadist"...and there is zero doubt Ibiki will torture captive ninja he finds, hence Kisame massacring his comrades. That said, we never see Ibiki actively do this onscreen even if it's pretty clear he's done so.
Despite his ruthlessnes, though, Ibiki has a decent side. He's quite close to some other ninja, cares for his village and his whole goal here is to test the students. He's very impressed by Naruto and drops his cold bastard persona to reveal a much nicer side. When he sees he passed a student who didn't answer a single question, his reaction is just to laugh at it.
Conclusion?
I'd love him to keep, but I can see the debate here.
Edited by Lightysnake on Aug 20th 2021 at 3:06:24 AM
Gonna give Ibiki a but not because of that. I don't really see that as too bad. That just seems like a classic Secret Test of Character. However the fact that he's a torturer for a living still does seem kind of bad, so I'm giving a regardless.
Jackie Brown.
Edited by jjjj2 on Aug 20th 2021 at 6:50:18 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
That should be good, seems pretty explicit that it's a separate person.