During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
The wifi here sucks
Here's Kaetsu, sorry for the delay I've been busy with work.
- Murder on the North Star Express and the Unpublished Novel: Toshinori Kaetsu is a former member of Yasuji Asama’s gang who initially began working for Keitaro Izumo as part of a plan to rob his store. However after his girlfriend died from a drug overdose, Kaetsu began planning to kill Asama for getting her hooked on drugs, and Izumo for being a drug dealer. Lying to Asama by telling him that Izumo wanted his store robbed to get insurance, the robbery is botched when Izumo hits the alarm, causing people to believe that he caused the robbery to look like a hero. Kaetsu then tricks the two into getting on the same train and beats Asama to death, then shoots Izumo while disguised as Asama and rigging his body to fall out of the train, making it seem as if Asama killed Izumo and then died accidentally while trying to escape. When Yukiko Kudo claims to have evidence that would expose Kaetsu he plans to kill her, being seconds away from succeeding when he’s caught.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Ruby and Uraki
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Iroh, Humpty and Negativitron
Holding off on Voltan for now
Had to skip it for the day yesterday, so for the sake of catching up:
for Klaasje, Francis, Clive, Seiji, Brynner, Zera, Scud, Ruby, and Uraki.
for Iroh.
Abstain on Voltan.
Cut Humpty and Negativitron.
Showtime!
Cut Humpty and Negativitron
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
Lies and Violence!
Skulduggery Pleasant again. No, I haven't gotten the latest book yet, but I highly doubt that it will change this character in a way where they don't count. Also, I'm bored and have been wanting to do this for a long time, so you know what? Fuck it!
This is one of the main characters, so I'm going to try and just summarize the narrative highlights. Long story short, not much ruins the magnificence.
The candidate
Skulduggery Pleasant, back before he was a skeleton, was a soldier in the war against Mevolent and his worship of the Faceless Ones. He eventually became one of the founding members of the Dead Men, initially named that because they were sent off on suicide missions. They kept the name because they survived those suicide missions, taking on any dirty job they could and almost always coming out on top (only two causalities out of their nine-man team throughout the entire war).
Around 1700, Nefarian Serpine killed Skulduggery Pleasant's family and then the detective himself. His spirit not ready to move on, Pleasant came back to life, his body now a walking skeleton. Consumed with rage, both by the loss of his family and the never-ending war with Mevolent, Skulduggery (with the encouragement of totally-evil-girlfriend Abyssinia) put on a suit of armor, discovered he had a flair for Necromancy and took up the name Lord Vile. Gaining a desire to kill every living thing (including the Faceless Ones, if they were actually real), over the course of five years Vile butchered former friends, rose up the ranks Mevolent's forces until becoming one of his infamous Three Generals alongside Serpine, backstabbed Abyssinia so she couldn't overthrow Mevolent and end the war too quickly, and had an as of yet unrevealed epiphany that led to him taking off the armor.
Investigating the murder of his friend Gordon Edgley in the present (Serpine did it, making Skulduggery very happy as he's apparently been incessantly pushing to end the current truce and murder him, to the growing annoyance of literally everyone he knows and can talk too about it), Skulduggery recruits his 12 year-old niece Valkyrie Cain as his partner. For more information he breaks into the ancestral vault of his best friend, which he describes as the equivalent of "digging up a grave, taking out the body, rifling through the pockets, and then dancing on the whole thing." The detective manages to figure out where Gordon hid the Scepter of the Ancients that Serpine is after:
And the two kill Serpine. They later manage to stop fellow former Mevolent general Vengeuous (when Valkyrie is captured, he bluffs her free by threatening them with a remotely-detonated bomb, actually a bag he keeps his car jack in and his garage remote without any batteries) and the Diablerie from summoning the Faceless Ones. Unfortunately, the latter leads to him being sucked into the Faceless Ones' dimension, where they torture him for months. When Valkyrie goes to rescue him, he's... actually pretty coherently thinking, civilly having a conversation with her while insisting that she's just a hallucination (somewhat broken out of that mindset when he sees another friend, China Sorrows, and amazedly remarks that his hallucinations never travel in pairs). Also, he took the time to learn how to fly, which no one else has apparently mastered.
Still, while he isn't raving insane it's still clear that he's kind of lost it. Once it actually registers that Valkyrie is real and saved him, his only remark is "Good job." He crashes the car of a Sanctuary (magic government) operative following him and Valkyrie, insults/threatens him,
Then immediately sets to work investigating Billy-Ray Sanguine's new Revengers' Club, uncovering the framing of Sanguine's dad for an important assassination by the current Grand Mage before figuring out that Valkyrie is the Apocalypse Maiden Darquesse.
When Valkyrie finds out Skulduggery was Vile, his only reaction is to dumbfoundedly chuckle at the revelation of how he became a skeleton (also revealed at that time), before going right back to the job, remarking to Valkyrie how tears of remorse don't help anyone. He later embraces the Vile persona to stop the new Death Bringer from killing everyone, and while he initially goes on a bit of a rampage the increasing need to break Vile out to deal with world-ending threats leads to Skulduggery gaining a degree of conscious control over him.
When it's revealed that China Sorrows helped Serpine kill his family, Skulduggery almost shoots her before walking away in a chilling Tranquil Fury... only to secretly repair the relationship without even Valkyrie's knowledge, to use as a trump card at a later date (such as infiltrating the fortress of traitor Erskine Ravel, who has taken in China as a minion). When Valkyrie is taken over by Darquesse he organizes the huge war effort against her, separating her from Valkyrie and tricking her into leaving the dimension. Unfortunately, there's a doomsday machine that needs someone's soul freely given to deactivate (there's a lot going on, I know, I'm sorry). With a few seconds on the clock and no volunteers, Skulduggery gives his hat to Valkyrie and steps forward...
After that, Skulduggery becomes an arbiter (basically a cop with no boss still recognized with authority by the Sanctuaries), stops his resurrected ex Abyssinia from taking over the world, and stops an alternate Mevolent's invasion. The synopsis of the next book has him organizing an assassination on Damocles Creed, a Faceless One worshipper that's gained control of the Sanctuaries. Again, don't have the book yet but I highly doubt anything will happen to derail his otherwise 13-book-consistent characterization.
Magnificence and Bastardness
Skulduggery is the definition of Crazy Awesome. His banter is utterly hilarious and he always manages to come out on top, either through good planning or quick thinking. He's a bit egotistical but it's Played for Laughs, and when the situation becomes dire he always gets serious. He's not emotionless, and there's a fair bit of self-hatred buried under all those quips, but he's aware that wasting time over that stuff is, well, wasting time. Despite going a little insane after spending time with the Faceless Ones he still cares about his friends, and if you hurt one of them he will enact an oh so bloody vengeance upon you.
Now, there are a few weird agency issues with his stint as Vile. Vile is, technically, a different person, one who apparently has enough agency to Mind Wipe himself so Skulduggery won't remember certain things. However, at the end of the day Vile is a part of Skulduggery's subconsciousness, and while he isn't consciously or willingly controlling him he is still controlling him. Characters (who know Skulduggery is Vile) easily switch from referring to Skulduggery as Vile to Skulduggery and Vile separately, and Vile's creation is only enabled by Skulduggery embracing his darkness and hatred. Basically, Skulduggery has much more culpability for Vile than most people with a Superpowered Evil Side do.
Taking that in mind, I feel he hits the bastard part well enough, even with Valkyrie as a Morality Pet reining in his more ruthless tendencies (updated with current musings in 2022, in case there's ever a rebuttal I'm not around for):
- Obviously has the whole murder spree as Vile:
- While it admittedly happened in the past, it's infinitely worse than, say, Black Widow regretfully killing a child in a failed gambit to kill a slaver, or Roy Mustang killing people as a soldier on the battlefield — and even then, while he still feels guilty about it he isn't angsting about it to their extent.
- While Vile did split off into its own separate personality, Skulduggery still initiated the murder spree in the first place.
- While he's working towards (or at least believes he's working towards, see the Vile EP) omnicide, I personally find his sheer badassness more than enough to prevent it from overshadowing his magnificence.
- And finally, although he has some control in the present day, it's still a massive risk letting Vile out, even if it's usually in life or death scenarios. Hell, he actually gives Vile an upgrade to fight Darquesse, which could have quite easily led to a bunch of innocent casualties, and I'm honestly surprised it never came back to bite him in the ass.
- Lets an unprepared and untrained 12 year-old tag along on his exploits, with literally their first adventure involving ferocious vampires. Although he initially tries to dissuade her, when she insists on coming along he just shrugs and goes with it. It's repeatedly pointed out how reckless this was, though he doesn't really care seeing how it ended up saving the world numerous times over.
- Is an Anti-Hero Cowboy Cop fully willing to break the rules should he need to, with the first book having him commit what he describes as the magic cultural equivalent of digging up the corpses of his best friend's parents, riffling through their pockets, and then spitting and dancing on top of them in order to get the information he needs.
- The aforementioned Erskine Ravel was once one of Skulduggery's best friends, who betrayed him and killed two of his other friends. He's eventually cursed with unending agony, so horrible he wants to die. Skulduggery, possibly holding a grudge, goes out of his way to make sure Ravel stays alive (although they do eventually free Ravel from his curse a few weeks later, it's only for part of a larger plan, and Skulduggery outright destroys his soul after).
- The 14th book, which I've since gotten, has him push to assassinate the current Supreme Mage, and he only stands down at the very last minute since everyone he needs to get away with it won't agree to help. Creed's an evil asshole, but the fact that it's a cold-blooded murder Skulduggery wants to commit even with plenty of time left for their usual "punch the bad guy until they give up" routine (wherein deaths occur in high stakes confrontations that usually leave them with no better options) sits wrong with an incredibly emotionally drained Valkyrie and her own Morality Pet, who view it as them slipping into the mindset of "judge, jury, and executioner" like some of the previous asshole Sanctuary leaders they've dealt with before. Ultimately, he only backs off because Valkyrie's gone through some really horrible shit in the past few years and wants to try an option that won't traumatize her considerably shaken psyche by making her further question her own morality. It's a bit stupid, but I can see where they're coming from, and the book still frames it as a bad thing, so...
- Helps China gain power and strong-arm political opponents into supporting her when she becomes Supreme Mage. He admittedly only kills one innocent person during this time (and it was technically in self-defense as long as you ignore the context leading up to the confrontation), but he still arrests innocent people to feed China's growing hunger for control. He posits that it was necessary to secure peace and an easy transition of power, but pretty much immediately admits that was just how he excused it at the time.
All in all, he has a bunch of small morally grey moments that, individually, wouldn't be enough. Collectively taken with his backstory as Vile, however, and he's just enough of a bastard to make it.
Once again, I apologize that this is so goddamn long. Thoughts? (Please say yes, please say yes, please say yes)
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Feb 6th 2022 at 10:20:48 AM
That wasn't a very long EP... You say Vile is a Superpowered Evil Side that he has some control over. What are some modern Kick the Dog moments Vile gets up to?
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Lies and Violence!
The modern day "control" over Vile that Skulduggery gains is less actually controlling Vile's actions and more reigning him in after the current threat is stopped, before he can go murdering other people.
Before he gets that control, though, he unleashes Vile to stop a villain named Melancholia from murdering everyone in existence, even though Valkyrie is in the room and has a high probability of also dying. For his part, there's not really much a better option and he asks Valkyrie to stop him before he gets lost in Vile again.
I proposed him under the Oogway rational of "was once a bad person, does a few shady things in the present," though the shady parts are considerably toned down to just being an Anti-Hero who breaks the rules and isn't all that choked up about murdering enemies. You said you may have upvoted Iroh if him being a pickpocket was a more consistent thing, so I thought a more consistent aloof and jerkish personality might be good enough.
I think I'll give a leaning then. Just judging by Vile's trope page he does seem bad enough. So I feel unleashing him is grey enough.
Gotta love Jaws!
to Pleasant.
Sad cut to the Negativitron.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
Skulduggery sounds like a yea. Great work!
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to Skull.
Feels good, don't it?
Woagh
Goku Black
skull
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
to Ruby, Voltan, Uraki and Skullduggery Pleasant.
@Emerald That's what I had in mind when I EP'd Iroh; a once-bad guy who's highly capable, does one or two shady things in the present and has no problem killing to defend himself; his kill tally is at least 4 (two Earthbending soldiers, one Earthbending captain, one of Zhao's men).
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
The Avatar Wiki implies that they ain't dead. In keeping with it being a children's show (a very good and thought provoking one) unless it's fully confirmed that he did kill them, I'm not really seeing that as bad enough. I'm also not sure if he killed the firebending captain, but the last one really isn't villainous. In the aftermath of the moon spirits death, it just isn't bad enough.
Goku Black
I think Thats probably reading too much into it. Like Bumi destroying factories....
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I guess I assumed they killed the soldiers, cause well, you know... Jet, who received similar force and was fatally injured.
See what happens when you assume?
Edited by k410ren on Apr 26th 2021 at 2:13:08 PM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
So, I guess, we should create Cutey Honey MB page.
Any more to come jackie? It's six to the animanga page and one to live action one. Neither page is getting out of control.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Actually it’s 4 for the anime/manga page and 3 for the live action film page.
And yeah, that’s all there is. Granted, the franchise is still ongoing, so maybe there’ll be future candidates someday.
"No running in the halls!"
Skulduggery
Any more votes on my Bell quote?
I’d be fine with it.
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
I'll just post my final CH write-ups now.
Edited by therealjackieboy on Apr 25th 2021 at 9:24:08 AM
"No running in the halls!"