Unclear Definition (new crowner 9/18): Planet Eris

What should we do about Fantasy Kitchen Sink's sister trope, Sci-Fi Kitchen Sink? Does that go under Planet Eris too?

Or, well, Sci-Fi Kitchen Sink seems to think it's a sister trope, Fantasy Kitchen Sink not so much. When I was writing the description for Science Fantasy, I was under the impression that both sinks were essentially the same, but it looks like that's not the case. In any case, it definitely looks like Missing Supertrope Syndrome for the whole set related to Planet Eris, but I'm not sure what that supertrope is should be.

O_O, I had no idea there was a Sci-Fi Kitchen Sink. Anyway, if you are to add "unrelated sci fi elements" then yes. since it still fits with the "unrelated <something> combined in one setting to enable plot" clause.

But how i see it. both sinks are exclusive, but if combined, will turn to Planet Eris *

.

Anyway Planet Eris definitely needs a specific definition OR a split *

. So seconding the Definition Crowner thing.

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?

Sci-Fi Kitchen Sink has 11 wicks. I'm not surprised you've never heard of it. Hell, even Wizards from Outer Space has 3 more with 14 wicks. And I apologize all of the Discordian riddles, but we Discordians must stick apart!

Since I'm a bureaucracy-aligned Discordian (we exist!), I'm going to give a quick rundown of all of the proposed definitions that have been mentioned so far in the thread for Planet Eris:

1. The Same But More of Fantasy Kitchen Sink. Schizo Tech, Science Fantasy, and Genre-Busting tropes are common.
2. The story ostensibly takes place in modern Earth, but is spiced up with any number of speculative fiction creatures and tropes, added according to Rule of Funny, Rule of Cool, and Ass Pull.
3. A Mundane Fantastic version of Fantasy Kitchen Sink, where crazy things coexist with "real world" elements.
4. Essentially, All Fiction Is True. Includes Fantasy Kitchen Sink, Monster Mash, and all combinations. Despite and aside from this, the world is just like our own.
5. Fantasy Kitchen Sink that treats all fantastic stuff as completely normal.
6. A where fantastic elements exist, but it's Like Reality, Unless Noted. Fantasy Kitchen Sink fantastic elements are expected, but Planet Eris they are unusual but unsurprising.
7. A Fantasy Kitchen Sink in a Random Events Plot, with many elements thatRun on Nonsensoleum.
8. A Science Fantasy story where All Myths Are True.
9. Fantasy Kitchen Sink with an Extra-Strength Masquerade causing In Spite of a Nail, Played for Laughs.
10. New Fantasy and Sci-Fi elements as the plot demands, but still Like Reality, Unless Noted.
11. Make Planet Eris a Supertrope to Fantasy Kitchen Sink, Monster Mash, Crossover Cosmology.
12. Mundane characters and world somehow have supernatural elements, with no real reason other than it enables plot.

That's really all over the place, and well to be expected for a trope named after the Goddess of Discord. Like Reality, Unless Noted is fairly common. Fantasy Kitchen Sink is even more common — but I'm looking at it, and the examples seem to run the gamut from Monster of the Week shows that maintain The Masquerade to straight, classical fantasy settings. Is it All Myths Are True turned Up To Eleven, or a work with a lot of fantasy (and science fiction?) tropes? Hell, the Laconic.Fantasy Kitchen Sink has three definitions, so I'm not even sure we're talking about the same thing there either. So, I agree with Shanghai Slave about potentially needing a TRS on some other tropes too.

Does anyone want to try to narrow down these definitions so we can maybe get a crowner in here?

edited 7th May '12 11:57:45 AM by BrentLaabs

Combination of #2, #3 and #6, IMO.

It's absolutely not a supertrope, I don't know where that idea came from. I think all these Sister Tropes do need one, though. Fiction Kitchen Sink?

I was the one who thought of that . Only did it for the name though, not for it's current definition. also why I mentioned splitting Planet Eris. So it would be the Supertrope (with definition changed) and the split will be Science Fantasy Melting Pot (the current definition fixed).

as for crowner choices, my money's on the 6 or 7 (or both) or the last with "Sci-Fi" added.

NINJA EDIT: markup fail.

edited 7th May '12 6:20:44 AM by ShanghaiSlave

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?

Okay, hang on a second. I think I'm getting confused.

This is maybe a side discussion, but I thought All Myths Are True was always a purely in-universe thing. If the heroes are told an Ancient Legend or read a fairy tale on-screen, it's basically guaranteed to be true (or at least the truth as filtered through generations of retelling and/or the local primitive culture's limited understanding). It's a result of The Law of Conservation of Detail; if they're going to spend two or three minutes telling us a story, it damn well better have some bearing on the rest of the script. I could've sworn that's what it meant a year or so ago.

If all of OUR world's real life myths are true, isn't that just Fantasy Kitchen Sink? Like Harry Potter, a univese that contains wolfmen and kappa and dragons and every other creature from myth and legend, and they're all real (for some value of real, since some of them were just people getting the story slightly wrong).

Did All Myths Are True suffer a definitional slip at some point or is it just suffering a good bit of misuse? My understanding is that All Myths Are True doesn't even mean that literally all myths in the story's universe are real, but rather that any myth the audience hears about within the work is a reference to some actual event, person, or creature. It's the flipside of Prophecies Are Always Right, where any time the heroes are told about a prophecy within the work, it turns out to be accurate (or it would be if the heroes didn't intervene).

By the same token, Prophecies Are Always Right doesn't mean everthing Nostradamus wrote is correct, or even that every prophecy within that universe is always right, but that the ones we hear about in detail are always accurate (though possibly misleading).

Maybe the description needs to be cleaned up to make it more clear that it's only talking about when the heroes hear a story, that story is based on fact.

edited 7th May '12 9:11:22 AM by Escher

That's essentially what the trope means. however, even the current page image of All Myths Are True ignores that and includes real world myths. also, examples are filled of works that use real world myths.

EDIT: TRSing all myths are true...

here.

edited 7th May '12 9:53:19 AM by ShanghaiSlave

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?

I think you mean Speculative Fiction Melting Pot. Science Fantasy is a genre where both sci-fi and fantasy tropes are used, creating a merged setting. Speculative Fiction is the more generic category, with subgenres of Science Fiction, Fantasy, Science Fantasy, and Horror.

Let's see, if we're voting now, should I just start the crowner? There's no need for these to be mutually exclusive.

In the meantime, I'm going to go TRS Sci-Fi Kitchen Sink, because it currently seems like it's an unused subset of Fantasy Kitchen Sink. edit: and... here's the link to the SciFiKitchenSink TRS

edited 7th May '12 12:29:33 PM by BrentLaabs

Yeah, that's what I meant. I stand corrected.

And you can go ahead and make a crowner I guess.

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?

Hooked.

Just for reference, I thought I'd provide links to old crowners from before this particular thread. I wasn't there, but here they are:

• Request to rename: rejected 9-11.
• Alternative Titles (in spite of the above, apparently): no title reached 2/3 majority.
• Merge proposals (with either Mundane Fantastic or Fantasy Kitchen Sink: All proposals failed in the negative votes, including do nothing.

I think we have our work cut out for us.

Haha. So everyone agrees that we need to do something, but no-one can agree what...

Looking at its own TRS thread, I think people are misusing All Myths Are True in this crowner. It should be a Law of Conservation of Detail trope, like Prophecies Are Always Right but for in-universe myths and stories.

In that sense, it has nothing to do with whether or not something is Planet Eris, they're entirely independent tropes. A Planet Eris work is fairly likely to feature All Myths Are True, but only alongside all sorts of other fantastic elements that have never been mentioned as stories.

edited 9th May '12 10:30:36 AM by johnnye

Dr Mcninja seems to be the Most Triumphant Example.

That's how it was used initially.

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?

I think I may have even misused All Myths Are True in this crowner. Oh well, it looks like it's appropriately getting voted down. Agreed that All Myths Are True is a common, but not required element of Planet Eris.

I guess I need to finish that Archive Binge of Dr Mc Ninja now.

I've been using Urusei Yatsura as my own internal template for Planet Eris, even though it's not listed on the page currently. Lum, from that show, is my avatar now. And that plugsuit she's wearing in the avatar? That's not even out of character for her, cha~.

Currently we have 4 suggestions passing at 3:1 or higher. The top one mentions "any number of speculative fiction tropes", while two others mention the kitchen sink tropes, which imply "a lot of speculative fiction tropes".

Anyone want to comment on the difference? I voted up the "any number" one because I otherwise liked the wording, but I think many speculative fiction tropes are necessary for Planet Eris.

I don't know that it has to be many. I think if a story goes along for months more-or-less adhering to the rules of the real world, then suddenly features a plot based around some fantastic element, then goes back to life as almost-usual (but still acknowledging that that thing happened), then it's obviously not set in the real world, or in any world that could plausibly develop 20 Minutes into the Future.

hmm, my vote went to "any number" as well. How I understand it: any number means the story can start with just one and the stockpile element after element. as with the Most Triumphant Example The Adventuresof Dr Mcninja. which started with just giant lumberjacks, then escalated to raptors,organic jetpack men, grim reaper, zombies, dracula, Mayincatec, Lobster Mobsters, etc.

What confuses me though is this. a setting like in Touhou Project, which is a fantasy world with Fantasy Kitchen Sink inhabitants accessible via a boundary in a Shrine somewhere in Mundane Fantastic *

Japan. yet still somehow has Real Life events affecting the plot. (the characters know what really happened to Apollo 13 and stuff like that)

where does that belong?

edited 11th May '12 7:54:05 PM by ShanghaiSlave

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?

Touhou sounds like Genre-Busting to me.

So maybe its starting to sound like we'll have a line like this: "Can have any number Speculative Fiction Tropes, but may eventually tend towards Fantasy Kitchen Sink by the way it accumulates new tropes like a katamari."

Planet Eris seems to be a mixture of Science Fiction Kitchen Sink and Fantasy Kitchen Sink set on present-day Earth. I do recommend a name change since Planet Eris sounds like it is set on another planet. Discordian Earth or something sounds more appropriate to me.

Every time a fairy says that it doesn't believe in humans, a human child dies.

as far as i know, Eris is the greek word for Discord. also, earth is usually "renamed" as Gaia, Terra, "The Planet", or any word meaning earth anyway in some of these settings. so we know its still earth, only different.

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?

Well, 16 votes on at least one of the options is enough to get started. Options above +6 define the trope, options above +2 could be common features of the trope — sound good?

Sure, but we should also look at cleaning the page, and several people in this thread have suggested a rename.

I think it badly needs a rename since, as mentioned earlier, there is a planet (planetoid) called Eris and it isn't this trope.

Yes, but keep in mind not to include mutually-exclusive options or otherwise Trope Decay will start.

While I doubt that many people know what the planetoid is, I Thought It Meant a pereniall-strife zone a la Warhammer 40,000. Might need a Single Prop for renaming here.

edited 20th May '12 1:06:17 AM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman