Discussion YMMV / Overwatch

It's about fan's tendency to draw Ana / other female characters MUCH curvier than they actually are.

I've heard conflicting reports, but if you feel that it's an important enough detail to keep in, I have no problem with editing it back in. At the same time, Blizzard hasn't been very consistent about what lines they choose to add or keep in for whatever reasons, so I don't know if it's accurate to frame it as "Blizzard chose to not add these in response to division". I'll add back something like what you put in, and if you think it's inappropriate, feel free to change it.

The voice lines were only ever datamined. They were never set up to actually play, not even on the PTR. While it is possible Blizzard cancelled their implementation due to backlash, it is also possible that they were never intended to be implemented in the first place and only made their way into the game files by accident.

I would say keep the line saying they were removed, but unless someone at Blizzard outright says it was due to backlash (and they probably won't, as they generally don't acknowledge datamined info at all) let's not make any assumptions as to why.

The entry reads more like a Surprisingly Similar Characters entry then one for Counterpart Comparison.

The comparison feels shoerhorned in. The only thing that ties the two characters is the fact that they were both victims of an experiment gone wrong, really.

Clicked the wrong button, please ignore this post.

Edited by MrFister

delet this

Edited by Darth_Marth

I would say no. It was definitely excessive for a while, with any half-decent Mercy rez getting Pot G by default, but then they tweaked the algorithm in the next patch and it's been fine since then.

I'll edit that out, then, if no one else wants to chime in.

Wipe it, wait for the backlash to die down a smidge, and see if anyone bothers.

...Is my suggestion.

No. Values Dissonance is when the authors included a moral position that seemed fine to them, but is very much not fine for a distant or later culture.

That sounds more like Broken Base.

I wrote it but I won't cry if people decide to get rid of it.

I have a little bit to add, but it might be a bit controversial, so I brought it here first:

• From his limited interactions with his teammates in-game and in-story, one could posit the theory that Reaper is right about being abandoned. Most of his teammates do nothing but insult him, and only one ever expresses real concern for his health (Mercy). While it certainly doesn't excuse his actions, Reaper may have a fair point in his anger.

Seem good? Or is it not a well-liked interpretation? I've found it on a few of comments sections, but that might not be enough, and personally, while I believe it, I get others may not. So, can I edit this further?

Edited by Riley1sCool

Ana also feels pity about him. Mostly because she was technically "dead" before the incident that turned him into Reaper.

Uni cat

Ana goes back and forth between puty and disdain.

Thanks, I'll make sure to mention that when I edit it. If you say so, I'll re-edit it. After all, I wouldn't have brought it here first otherwise.

Edit (Mainly to be less biased):

• Even though it certainly doesn't excuse his actions, one could argue that Reaper is on the right track about being abandoned. While his interactions with teammates are rather limited, most of them don't express any concern over the fact that Reyes is not only alive, but on the opposite side. Only two of his old teammates (Mercy and Ana) seem to express any level of sympathy with him, and some, like McCree, seem downright spiteful towards him. It's unclear if this was how he was treated before, or if this is just a result of his Face–Heel Turn.

So, opinions? Should I not add it?

Edited by Riley1sCool

I'm sure that we can reword those examples, but we will have to see them first.

Mei is another type of polarizing character similar to Pharah. She can be a really effective noob slayer in lower levels, but more experienced players can deal with her easily by just not splitting up and taking her on in groups.

Overall, in my opinion, Mei is a very balanced character. But her hatedom is noticeable (She is nicknamed Satan of all things)

Uni cat

Oh sorry. Here's the examples deleted.

• Scrappy Mechanic
  • Mei's freezing ability is one of the most aggravating in the game. Unless you're playing as one of a handful of characters with abilities that counter it— or even if you are and you get caught with those abilities on cooldown— getting caught in it slows you down incrementally, which leads to your getting hit by it more, until you're frozen solid, at which point you're likely to find yourself headshotted to death with impunity.

• That One Attack:
  • While not exactly an attack, Mei has her Ice Wall, which is the only skill in the game that's not trap related to go on cooldown before it even disappears. It has a ten-second cooldown, and lasts for five seconds, effectively making this skill have a five-second cooldown. Most skills in the game have a cooldown of around eight to ten seconds. While it is possible to break the wall it takes an obscene amount of damage to do so- at 500 health per pylon, with five pylons, it effectively has a total of 2500 health, which is more than anything else in the game- even a Winston who's using his ultimate doesn't even have half of that! D.Va's ultimate is pretty much the only thing guaranteed to bring it down before it goes away on its own.

---

Pharah's polarization isn't really like Mei's though. Pharah is actually rather beloved in terms of gameplay, design and persona. Her only point of contention is how low tier she is. Whenever she gets buffed or used in a tourney, fans and pros tend to be very happy about it.

But a lot of players can't stand Mei, for a variety of reasons, partly because of her kit, partly because of her personality, and partly for other reasons. When she got buffed, lots of people were upset. When she became tournament meta, even more complained.

Hey, it's me, the guy who edited out the Mei hate comments. The reason I did so was because they sounded completely biased. Yes, Mei's kit is disruptive for the red team, but if you're gonna complain about her CC, might as well complain about other CC abilities. And the Ice Wall? If it's "not exactly an attack", don't list it as an example.

Edited by SoaringEagle -RNotte

Sounds like Eagle is the biased one. Restore it, I say.

Author.

Woah, what? Ugh, is gonna result in an edit war?

-RNotte

Not if you make it.

Author.

Well, I am going to end a potential comment war I started before things get ugly.

Final note: Yes, Mei is annoying, I get it. Let's stop writing these entries in a complain-y way, though. (Me included.)

-RNotte

We can restore the entries because there is a legitimate hate against Mei. But, we should reword it in a way that doesn't sound like complaining.

Is that ok?

Uni cat

Don't act like Mei's the only Base-Breaking Character that matters. I think we have enough information on this page to know that Mei has her sides. The posts I removed and edited felt like users were singling her out, to me. Since we are going to restore the information, though, here's what I was thinking of in the re-wording.

Under That One Attack, let's just list CC abilities as a whole. Mei's not the only one with it. (There's Flashbang, Chain Hook, Sleep Dart, etc. I even feel that Lucio's Soundwave counts.) The post could be something like:

"Some heroes have CC (crowd control) abilities that fall under this. They could either ruin your positioning (Lucio's Soundwave, Mei's Ice Wall), stun you (Mc Cree's Flashbang, Ana's Sleep Dart, Mei's freezing), or both (Roadhog's Hook.) Mc Cree, Mei, and Roadhog get this the worst, as they have combos involving using their stun, and then killing the target easily with their secondary (or sometimes primary) fire."

Something like that. Feel free to word it as you'd like. (Mine's not very good.)

With that, keep the Scrappy Mechanic entry out, as we'll already be covering it under That One Attack.

Edited by SoaringEagle -RNotte

Yeah, I think you aren't contributing to this discussion.

Since, aside from Soaring Eagle, we seem to have consensus, let's work out the wording for the restoration.

Seems like massive shoehorning and I don't even understand it. I thought Recall was the best personally, due to the ending where Overwatch is officially reinstated and I can't be the only one dying to see where they go with that.

Author.

Yep. Shoehorning.

Another by shatterstar. Should be tell him something about hia problematic edits?

Uni cat

Wow, this is really is complaining at something that has never ever been a problem

Cut it

Uni cat

Thirded.

Well, the laconic says that an Ensemble Dark Horse is "An unexpectedly popular minor character"

Emphasis on the minor part. Genji is both a playable character AND the other protagonist of the short.

So yes, delete that text cause it's entirely misused

Uni cat

Get rid of it.

Ugh. The first part about Soldier is 100% false, so we can remove that right away. A few months ago, Chris X started adding a bunch of stuff to character pages stating that idealism caused the death of Overwatch and that Jack Morrison was blindly idealistic and was ignorant of the problems in the group. Which, I pointed out some time ago, is contradicted by Mercy saying that the problems were known by pretty much everyone in the group but nothing could be done about it.

Second, "Alive" has nothing to do with "Recall", even if it happened afterward. We already knew that the Overwatch world was crapsack and the fact that Mondatta was assassinated after the return of Overwatch was initiated doesn't change the optimism of it coming back. In fact, Mondatta's assassination increases the anticipation of Overwatch returning.

Long story short, axe them both.

I second the above statement. Besides a misuse, there is nothing Harsher in Hindsight that "Alive" really has told.

Uni cat

I thought it was harsher when you watch the happy ending of Recall and then learned that Alive takes place immediately afterwards. It just seems bittersweet to me because you see Tracer who is so happy, only to have to experience hell afterwards.

Yes, Overwatch is back. But, they've got a long way to go before Talon can be stopped.

Author.

I mean... yes. That's the premise of the story. If Overwatch just being back meant that everything was perfect forever that would be... weird. Like I said, Harsher in Hindsight shouldn't apply if the actual elements of the work aren't harsher. In this case it's the fan-interpretation that are affected, which is too meta even for YMMV.

Edited by Larkmarn Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.

Yeah, I was wondering that myself. I've seen nothing but praise for it.

Thirded. If anyone has an actual problem with it, they're a very non-vocal minority.

Alright, I've removed that entry.

I know crap-all about the Overwatch lore, but isn't Vishkar supposed to be a villainous organization? I.e., you're supposed to hate them? That's a big strike against them being The Scrappy.

So being a villain nullifies the possibility of being a scrappy? What?

Author.

Based on the conversation below, it seems like there's not enough information on them to consider them a Hate Sink, either.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.

Generally speaking, the creators don't intent to make a character a Scrappy. The fandom just finds them to be unbearable or otherwise hated. And generally speaking, you are not suppose to like the villains. Of course if Blizzard indented for Vishkar to be lesser of two evils and such marginally better than Talon, then they screwed up on that front.

Continue the bloodline, Fujimaru!

There's no indication that Blizzard intended anything, and I haven't seen any real indication that the fandom views either Talon or Vishkar with strong feelings one way or another.

Where is this supposed hatedom for Vishkar? Where are they posting, or talking about it?

I've seen Vishkar regarded as being worse than Talon, despite putting on the guise of being "good". While there are those who root for Talon, I have not seen anyone who does so with Vishkar.

Author.

You seem to be the only one, though, so I'm asking: WHERE have you seen this?

Just in participation of discussions is all, such as in Youtube videos regarding lore and things like that.

Author.

The Scrappy is widely misused, so i would suggest avoid using this trope to refer to any character, even Vishkar.

Hating Vishkar seems so arbitrary to me, especially because i haven't seen so much hate directed at them. Hell, i see more hating Mei than Vishkar, but that's another thing entirely

Uni cat

^^ Which You Tube videos?

Seriously we just need something to confirm.

I'd like to point out that there's a difference between being hated as a villain because of your villainous actions — that's a sign of a well-written character (see Love to Hate), and being hated as a villain because you're just bad as a character (that's this trope).

Anyways, I've seen a few comments towards Vishkar in Symmetra's lore videos but a lot of them are admittedly about her possibly being autistic. I guess we'll just have to see more of Vishkar's heinous actions in the future. A lot of the hate is also directed towards Symmetra herself, as well.

Author.

Lazer, at this point, I'm just going to shrug and say that you're reading into things. I've been asking for specific examples (ie., links) so that we can see this in action, but you've kinda been beating around the bush.

Yeah, you are not very clear about why Vishkar deserves to be The Scrappy. And about Symmetra, most complaints about her have been mostly towards her weird classification and how she is pretty weak right now. And that falls under Tier Induced Scrappy.

Uni cat

I'm not in the mood to dig in my heels on this, so I'll trust your judgment. Maybe throw in a line at the end summarizing what you just said, something like, "Not every pro team is using it, but those who aren't are dedicating a lot of effort to figuring out how to counter it."

Edited by HighCrate

Sure.

Oh, and I hope you feel better—whatever's wrong. :)

Thanks for the well-wishes. Nothing big or terrible, just work stress. Such is life. I'll go take some people's money at my monthly poker game tonight and then I'll feel better. (-:

Plot twist: HC accidentally won the wrong poker chip that has a hidden microchip in it and is currently on the run from the mob.

Which probably won't help the whole stressed out thing.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.

Turns out they weren't the mob, they were the Fashion Police, and they were after me for my banana-yellow two-piece-and-stockings number.

On the bright side, I really did win my poker game.

Edited by HighCrate

Yeah, that's probably a good idea. The patches are coming out at such a regular basis that I suspect that every character will be a TIS before all is said and done.

Are we going to mention the new Genji changes and how some of his mains complain that he is useless? Because from what i gather the nerf he got aren't that bad as people say

Edited by fasoman1996 Uni cat

I say we wait until the new patch goes live. Since it's still just PTR, there's probably going to be some differences from the final version.

Even if the actual in-game effects are 100% the same from PTR to live patch, it always takes an adjustment period for people to figure out how well a rebalanced character performs in serious play. After D.Va got buffed, you had people complaining that her ult was overpowered... until folks got used to it and learned how to better avoid it, and now most people will tell you that it's way more powerful than it was, but still more-or-less balanced. Nubian Satyress and I went back and forth for far too long about whether Mercy's rebalance was a buff or a nerf (she was pretty much entirely right, by the way, and in hindsight I should have backed off that hill sooner), because lots of places were predicting that she'd continue to be a must-pick until the actual results came in.

Rule of thumb, I'd say wait for at least week or two after a major rebalance for the meta to stabilize before considering any additions / deletions / revisions to TIS.

Edited by HighCrate

I'm a she, btw. =P

And I agree with HC. The pro Genji mains that I watch all started having tantrums when he got nerfed (and I mean ALL of them), but when I listened to their actual reasonings and complaints, they seemed hollow. Sure enough, about a week into it, and other pros are saying that Genji is still really good, but now it doesn't feel like every fight is just waiting for Genji to kill everybody.

Mercy is starting to see play again after the patch, and according to at least one commentator I watch, the current meta might actually make Ana viable as well.

It's very much wait-and-see at this point.

Edited by NubianSatyress

It's hilarious that a Shimada falls and another rises, because now people complain about Hanzo. But like you people said, we should wait before jumping to conclusions.

On the Genji nerf, he still performs well. The only thing that was an overnerf IMO is that he can't double jump anymore after wall crawling.

If anything, the Genji situation sounds more like a Broken Base than a Tier Induced Scrappy

Edited by fasoman1996 Uni cat

Alright, I've moved them into their own page.

Edited by NubianSatyress

I'd tend to agree with the cut. As written, the entry is nothing but complaining. Also, I know this is YMMV so there's no avoiding a certain amount of it, but all that "by some," "to some," "for some," and "some say" crap always rubs me the wrong way. The world is a big place; "some" will say or believe almost anything. We're not concerned with what "some" say, we're concerned with the reactions of a significant portion of the fanbase.

I've certainly seen a fair bit of ribbing about Reaper's Grimdark 90s-comic-book aesthetic, but largely it's been good-natured, and often by people who enjoy playing as him even if he's a little... unsubtle. More Narm Charm than anything else.

Having not actually played the game, I've heard of him taking flak for being all grimdark. I can't say whether it's good-natured or not.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.

In my opinion, we can at least say that there's a divide between people who think his edgy, grimdark design is "fuckin' metal brah" and those who think it's just over the top ridiculous.

Because, believe me, both of those opinions exist.

I agree. But within that second group, there are those who enjoy him, whether ironically or over-the-top cheese and all, and those who don't. Therefore, the trope is valid.

What isn't is the example, which is very one-sided. How's this one?

• Reaper, the game's Darker and Edgier hero, has several divided camps. There are those who unironically appreciate his over-the-top design, those who appreciate it from a cheesy-but-effective perspective or an unintentionally-hilarious perspective, and those who find him obnoxious and grating.

(Yeah, wish I'd confirmed it here first, but I deleted it myself. Sorry about that.)

Edited by SpectralTime

Looks fine to me! :)

Edited by NubianSatyress

I can't say I've ever met anyone who non-ironically considered him "fuckin' metal brah," but I'll take your word for it. (-:

Part of Base-Breaking Character, though, is being a polarizing love-it-or-hate-it figure with little to no middle ground. I'd consider the silent majority of Overwatch fans who find him cheesy but harmless to be a rather substantial middle ground.

Kinda late, but this example is miles better. I approve it

Uni cat

"I can't say I've ever met anyone who non-ironically considered him "fuckin' metal brah," but I'll take your word for it. (-:"

LOL, not only have I met them online, but one of my friends plays 100% Reaper because he's so hardcore (also, Reyes' dark skin makes my friend think he's Afro-Latino like him).

Did I mention my friend is a 90s kid? xDDD

ALSO: I would just pot hole The Comically Serious to the "unintentionally hilarious" part.

Edited by NubianSatyress

Chris X added it. I just fixed it. I'll let him do the defending, because I don't really have an opinion either way.

Oh I wouldn't be so sure. I nearly thought they'd be Hate Sink, but... they're not the main focus. The story wanted to show more about how much damage Talon has done.

I did commit the mistake of making up guesses that MAYBE there's something salvagable about Vishkar, with some edits like stating that they might be that way because the current world has gone downhill since Omnic Crisis and fall of Overwatch (my mistake was making a guess rather than relying onto actual solid sources). But NO, that gets removed and insisting that we need to maintain the image of "Vishkar is a hypocritical corrupt company, what the hell is wrong with you to imply they may have redeeming qualities!".

Like people are actively preventing anyone to be ever sympathetic with the Vishkar Corporation. What do we call that activity? I dunno.

That's how I deduced about them being either Hate Sink or The Scrappy. I'm not quite sure, but I was thinking that in Blizzard's mind, they were thinking that Vishkar could be genuine in the betterment of others even if they have to be so cruel about it, thus the grey area... but apparently that message absolutely missed, that's how I came up with the idea that they are hated when they are meant to be a bit more grey. (This, I think, is also a problem endemic to fandom in general. 'Do as they liked, or get hated with possible fans getting 'bullied' to agree to hate')

'Scrappy Group' might also be good for a Trope Launch Pad topic.

If you know League of Legends, I recommend you also checking out what happened there, there's another organization having similar thing happening to them like Vishkar over there.

Edited by ChrisX

Chris X, I think you're still jumping conclusions and adding them to wiki pages.

The only things we're allowed to trope here are things that are STATED in story ir CONFIRMED by sources like books or Word of God. The only guessing we're really allowed is for things like Implied Trope or Downplayed Trope, and even then, we should be as brief as possible by saying what happened in the story and how it might imply a trope.

Edited by NubianSatyress

And besides, i really haven't seen people talk about that much about Vishkar. Or even bad things.

Mostly because we don't what the whole deal is with them. All we know is that they are a corporation that has done some shady stuff.

And can we consider Talon a Card-Carrying Villain when we aren't sure of their true motives? just wondering

Uni cat

It's pretty heavily implied that Talon is actually the Blackwatch, and that means they were literally founded by Reaper. Who *is* a total Card-Carrying Villain, and who founded them as a spiteful way of getting back at someone he envied.

Just sayin'.

How do we know Reaper founded them?

Because he's Gabriel Reyes, and Gabriel Reyes created the Blackwatch to discredit and degrade Overwatch.

And while it has not yet been confirmed that Talon is comprised primarily of Blackwatch guys, literally every member of Talon we've encountered so far either is (Reaper, his goons, potentially Ana if his sales pitch is any indication), or was brainwashed by higher-ups in the organization.

The obvious conclusion is that Talon and Blackwatch have, at the very least, very close ties with one another, with the former potentially being a shadow-group for the latter, even if it has not been directly confirmed that they are one and the same.

If Talon has a Card-Carrying Villain that doesn't mean they are a Card-Carrying Villain Organization.

Reaper being the founder is pure speculation, and it was stated before that Overwatch was hit from the outside and inside, so Reyes is more likely to be an inside agent rather than the founder of Talon.

Also, i will open a discussion about that example in the Character page

Uni cat

Yeah that's speculation. If nothing is confirmed about it, then we shouldn't be jumping to conclusions.

In stories, something that looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck can turn out to be an alien shapeshifter mimicking a duck.

EDIT: According to McCree's comic, Talon Mooks are trained in Blackwatch tactics, and one of them seemed to recognize him. So while we still have no evidence that Reaper founded Talon, we DO have evidence that Talon and Reyes were working together long before Overwatch fell.

Edited by NubianSatyress

"In stories, something that looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck can turn out to be an alien shapeshifter mimicking a duck."

...Okay, not only do you have a good point, but I simply must concede in the face of such an incredible metaphor.

Also, when does that train scene take place? I'd thought it was after the fall of Overwatch, since I'd thought that was when Mc Cree went rogue.

Yeah, it was after.

... Well that escalated quickly.

I admit that I was jumping off conclusions and it was my mistake. But if you look at the current standing and how stuffs of Vishkar was written, I felt like it was carrying the vibes of "They cannot be liked. What the hell is wrong with you in trying to find sympathetic values? THEY DON'T. HATE THEM!" All I'm trying is just to maintain at least neutrality, but the favors are really against Vishkar, who sits on the place of 'Cannot be liked, must be hated.'

Try to read the current article when it comes to Vishkar. It just came off to me that it gets the vibes that Talon seemed better in spite of being a Card-Carrying Villain because they're honest, whereas hypocrites or people using Light Is Not Good are considered even worse than terrorism. Yes, I did add some of them, but aside of my additions, it already have that feels. Tell me if that one is also 'jumping to conclusion'.

And if yes, do tell me some of your reasonings that Vishkar can still be gray and 'likable' in spite of what they did. Something that didn't get swept by their other atrocity (For instance, Well-Intentioned Extremist. The 'Well-Intention' part usually gets annulled with the atrocities they have done and not living up to their claims of serving the innocent).

Edited by ChrisX

That doesn't make the base less broken. It just means that we take out the guessing while the confirmed body size becomes I Knew It!.

Edited by NubianSatyress

It may still be a point of contention, given that the "Fat Mei" camp might feel underwhelmed about how she turns out to be Thick Mei.

Though i would be cautios about mentioning it.

Edited by fasoman1996 Uni cat

I kinda figured with a confirmed figure there wouldn't be anything. Since the debate wasn't "what should she look like" and was instead "what DOES she look like", knowing what she actually does look like would've ended it. I get that people want their headcanon to be true but I just don't get why it's still an issue.

And now it's sure to turn into What Could Have Been versus "it's fine".

Fair enough, I'm still trying to figure out how some tropes work. I figure asking questions is really the best way to do that.

Sooo... where's this spray? Because I can't find any that prove her figure one way or the other.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.

The ones I was talking about were Table Tennis and Casual. Table Tennis especially since it's a full body shot.

It's been 4 days. Anyone get to look at those? 'cause I wanted to add a subheading about those sprays.

Here◊ ya go.◊

Sorry it took too long.

Well the laconic of Big Beautiful Woman basically says "A fat woman portrayed as attractive". So i don't see a problem with adding the trope there in that context.

Though to be honest, most fanarts i've seen about Mei only exaggerate her chest. Or maybe i haven't dig enough to find the "Fat Mei" fanart

Edited by fasoman1996 Uni cat

The main page has certain requirements that have to be met for the character to count. She has to be heavyset, she has to be attractive or fanservicey, and it can't be used for disgust or irony or whatever.

Mei qualfies, if we take both her Moeness and her booty pants into account. It's subtle, but it's there.

Also her spray during the Summer Games shows that she's not that fat or wide without that jacket.

That was part of an across-the-board change to how ults work: pre-patch, self-healing didn't charge ults. Post-patch, it does, meaning that heroes with self-heal abilities (Mercy's out-of-combat regeneration, Soldier 76's and Roadhog's E abilities, etc.) had their on-paper charge rates reduced to balance out the fact that they have more chances to charge. Overall, her ult doesn't charge significantly more slowly than it did.

As part of the same patch, they buffed her ult so that it no longer stops her movement and instantly recharges her mobility skill, making her less vulnerable when rushing into a firefight to pop off a quick ult. They also buffed her alt-fire so that it now increases damage by 50% instead of 30%. All told, it was a buff, not a nerf, to Mercy.

As of August 2016, Metabomb lists her as high Tier 2 and the second-highest-tiered support behind Lucio.

Here's another article listing her as top-tier alongside Lucio.

A Google search for "Mercy nerf" reveals no reports of Mercy being actually being nerfed, and a whole bunch of people speculating that she will or should be because she's too powerful.

Those links are compiled looks at how things went before the patch. The patch is barely two or three weeks old at this point—of course those numbers are going to be skewed. In fact, the Metabomb list isn't even objective data; the article says at the end that they're going against pro consensus about Zenyatta and at numerous points they say the list reflects what they think the tiers are.

So, I'll provide more recent data/consensus, starting with a detailing of the July patch notes.

• Resurrect
  • Ultimate charge cost increased by 30%
  • Movement is no longer prevented during activation
  • Guardian Angel instantly resets upon use

^{Developer Notes} Mercy's ultimate is one of the most powerful abilities in the game; however, players would often fly into the fray and die while using it. With this update, Resurrect will now take a bit longer to charge, but Mercy will be a lot safer when activating the ability in the middle of combat. In addition, we always intended Mercy’s Damage Boost beam to be her primary method for dealing damage, but it often felt so weak that you were better off pulling out your blaster. To help address this, we've slightly increased its potency.

However, after the patch, Mercy has largely been dropped from competitive Overwatch play. In the Alienware and ESL Atlantic tournaments (which I watch almost daily), every commentator has noted that the recent patch hit Mercy pretty hard. Another thing your links aren't going to show is that the patch also hit Pharah pretty hard, because buffing McCree nerfed Pharah by proxy, since he can now snipe Pharah out of the air in the hands of a pro. Further, Pharah dropping down in the meta also affects Mercy, because the "Phara-Medic" combo that Mercy benefitted from no longer applies.

Here's a link which details current metagameplay. To quote the article itself: "Swing, and a miss. Mercy was completely replaced by Zenyatta for his many Discord Orb synergies and the loss of her partner in crime, Pharah."

And here's a thread on the official battle.net forums where almost EVERYONE agrees with the same thing.

Even if none of this convinces you that Mercy is underused or underpowered "objectively", that doesn't matter because Tier Induced Scrappy is about opinions. Googling "ESL Battle Mercy Zenyatta" gives us these results, where almost every topic is about how useless Mercy is now. The opinion exists en-masse, whether or not any of us actually agree with it.

Edited by NubianSatyress

I've taken a look through those links, and it convinces me that it's an opinion that's shared by enough people that it's not just a Single-Issue Wonk, so the entry should probably go back up. However, I think it should be written in such a way as to make clear that it's specific to the metagame in high-level competitive play. How about something like,

• Mercy, after a major patch that reworked several characters, went from being one of the most-picked heroes in high-level competitive play to one of the least, thanks to fellow healer Zenyatta being the subject of a major buff that allows him to out-perform her in her niche, and her common partner-in-crime Pharah becoming easy prey for a newly-buffed McCree, reducing the usefulness of the once-popular Phar-Mercy combo. The official Blizzard forums and several fan Reddits are now full of folks complaining that she's become a "liability."

Edited by HighCrate

I think you mean Vocal Minority. Single-Issue Wonk is a single person that can't let go of a problem or issue, no matter what else they're talking about.

If t'were me, I'd also mention the longer Ultimate charge, because that is a reason people aren't picking her, too. Yes, it's not an all-around nerf compared to the other changes, but it didn't help her case.

Edited by NubianSatyress

It is a Vocal Minority— many more people play the game casually than follow high-level tournament play— but that's fine; minority opinions count too. I had mistaken it for you being a Single-Issue Wonk, but you've shown me that that's not the case; thank you for being willing to discuss it and I apologize for making assumptions.

I'm still not convinced that her ult charges more slowly in practice (as opposed to on paper) now that her self-healing means that it's almost constantly charging, but there certainly is a perception that it does (and maybe it's more the case in competitive where there's not much middle ground between "full health" and "dead" meaning she doesn't do as much self-healing), so you're right, it could stand a mention.

Edited by HighCrate

I'm not sure I'd call competitive Overwatch a Vocal Minority. It's like calling pro sports players in any league a vocal minority for things that affect their league of professionals. But, I digress.

I still think my original entry does a better job explaining what is actually wrong with Mercy's toolkit and why she can't compete with the other healers. The proposed new one focuses too much on other character changes.

Obviously indirect nerfs are a thing, but I don't think it's the core issue with the character. There is just not anything that she does better than the other healers. She has low damage, low healing, low utility, and low survivability. Her rez was the only thing she had going for her, but with the longer charge time, it's not really any better than Lucio or Zenyatta's ults.

Edited by Tyrathius

How about this:

• Mercy, after a major patch, went from being one of the most picked heroes in competitive play to one of the least. She has the lowest damage output of the four healers, can only heal or buff one person at a time and only from very close range, and she can only use one ability or weapon at a time. Further, her common partner-in-crime Pharah became easy prey for a newly-buffed McCree, reducing the usefulness of the once-popular Phar-Mercy combo. The loss of Pharah doesn't provide the safety of the air, and her lack of survivability (once a non-issue due to how often she could Resurrect before dying), is now seen as a liability because of the 30% longer charge cost.

I combined words from all three of us

Edited by NubianSatyress

Some of the phrasing toward the end is slightly awkward, and I'd drop the bit about damage output; it's not the focus of a healing specialist, and anyway, she's got better damage output than Lucio (except in situations where you can bump someone off the map with his alt-fire), she just doesn't use it much because it requires switching away from healing, which is already mentioned. How about:

• Mercy, after a major patch, went from being one of the most-picked heroes in high-level competitive play to one of the least. Her survivabiliity has never been great, she can only heal or buff one person at a time from close range, and she can only use one ability or weapon at a time. After the patch, her common partner-in-crime Pharah became easy prey for a newly-buffed McCree, reducing the usefulness of the once-popular Phar-Mercy combo and de facto nerfing her mobility. This, combined with an increased charge time for her ultimate ability (a multi-ally resurrect seen as the centerpiece of her kit), has her considered a liability in high-level play.

Edited by HighCrate

Looks fine to me.

EDIT: Actually, I would keep the part about damage output, since that's a major reason Zenyatta is now the #1 healer pick. Before the patch, Mercy was huge target of flankers like Genji or Reaper, but now, flanking Zenyatta is a toss-up because he can fight back.

Edited by NubianSatyress

I can see that. How about:

• Mercy, after a major patch, went from being one of the most-picked heroes in high-level competitive play to one of the least. Her survivabiliity has never been great, she can only heal or buff one person at a time from close range, and she can only use one ability or weapon at a time. After the patch, a newly-buffed Zenyatta can heal nearly as well while dealing damage at the same time, and Mercy's common partner-in-crime Pharah became easy prey for a buffed-up McCree, reducing the usefulness of the once-popular Phar-Mercy combo and de facto nerfing her mobility. This, combined with an increased charge time for her ultimate ability (a multi-ally resurrect seen as the centerpiece of her kit), has her considered a liability in high-level play.

Edited by HighCrate

Gets my thumbs up.

EDIT: Sorry, I can't make up my mind. >_<

Would you add "...both Ana and a newly-buffed Zenyatta..."? Because both of them can deal damage and attack at the same time.

Edited by NubianSatyress

Good point, especially considering her RoF got boosted by 20% in the latest patch. Ana can't technically heal and attack simultaneously the way Zenny can, but she can switch between roles far more smoothly than Mercy.

• Mercy, after a major patch, went from being one of the most-picked heroes in high-level competitive play to one of the least. Her survivabiliity has never been great, she can only heal or buff one person at a time from close range, and she can only use one ability or weapon at a time. After the patch, a newly-buffed Zenyatta can heal nearly as well while dealing damage at the same time, while new addition Ana can both heal and deal damage from range. Meanwhile, Mercy's common partner-in-crime Pharah became easy prey for a buffed-up McCree, reducing the usefulness of the once-popular Phar-Mercy combo and de facto nerfing her mobility. This, combined with an increased charge time for her ultimate ability (a multi-ally resurrect seen as the centerpiece of her kit), has her considered a liability in high-level play.

Okay, I think I'm finally gonna give this one my final stamp of finality. Finally.

Edited by NubianSatyress

I can believe it, though I have no personal experience.

I say cur it.

Yeah, Ana does have some glaring weaknesses. Mobility for example is one of the things she lacks and she isn't that good as a damage dealer.

I say cut it

Uni cat

The whole Tier Induced Scrappy section is long, natter-y, and plagued with Example Indentation and Repair Dont Respond problems. It needs a thorough streamlining.

Edit: Done.

Edited by HighCrate

I didn't see why not

I'd say it's Hell Is That Noise since that means something bad is about to happen. people spamming hi on the other hand is the later trope