Manga Naruto Discussion

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10:11:50 AM Apr 10th 2018
Would the Uchiha clan qualify for Creator's Pet, since they've basically swallowed the plot, get talked up constantly by the other characters, even their enemies, all get supposedly "tragic", sympathetic backstories that aren't all that tragic or sympathetic, are all treated like heroes without actually being terribly heroic, and either face no repercussions whatsoever or are Easily Forgiven for the crimes they've committed? Not to mention the number of times that Kinshimoto has broken his own rules just so he can give an Uchiha clan member some overpowered new ability. It says a lot about how much Kinshimoto is obsessed with the Uchihas that he literally created Kaguya out of thin air and have Black Zetsu as The Man in Front of the Man just to kill off Obito and Madara rather than have any of the Uchihas face repercussions for their actions from the actual protagonists. Or are they still too popular with too many people to fall into The Wesley category?
07:12:09 AM Sep 26th 2014
Chapter 693.

So, Sakura is still a fangirl over Sasuke, Sasuke's a dick and Naruto still wants to save him. And Kakashi thinks that Naruto's quest to retrieve Sasuke is still a good idea, even after Sasuke admits openly that he plans to murder every village leader.
08:11:22 AM Sep 26th 2014
Might want to use the forum thread for discussion.
08:54:58 PM May 20th 2014
So, something has come to mind. Couldn't Gaara's Tailed Beast extraction be considered Tearjerker or NightmareFuel? I have reason to think it should be added.
03:43:23 PM Sep 30th 2013
So, sometimes we've had Naruto listed as a Memetic Sex God? Sometimes I've seen him listed as one, and more recently he's been removed from the entry. Does he qualify? Because Ichigo seemed to and Naruto seems to launch even more ships than him. Also, should we split the the YMMV regarding Madara and Tobi since it's revealed they aren't the same guy?
02:11:15 PM Jun 4th 2014
Not quite sure, but I can hazard a guess that Naruto isn't a Sex God, since Memetic Sex God states that the they are "the character to whom everyone, no exceptions, willingly submits." There are pertinent logical exceptions, but it differs on what end of the fandom you stand on and if you really believe that Naruto has the potential to be a sex-crazed woman hunting...thing.

YMMV heavily on that one.

On the Madara and Tobi, I suggest leaving it split, since combining them would have to riff heavily on spoilers and would take a ton of time.

05:45:34 PM Sep 12th 2013 badass was Madara Uchiha's entrance into the anime? If you haven't seen it, here it is
04:40:57 PM Apr 1st 2013
02:13:22 PM Sep 21st 2012
edited by fenyx4
Does anyone know where Aoi Rokushou (the treasonous ninja from the Land of Tea Arc (in Part 1 of Naruto) who wielded the Blade of the Thunder Spirit while engaging in battle with Naruto and Sasuke at one point) should be listed in the Characters subpage? I don't see an entry for him under Naruto-AnimeOnly or Naruto-CharactersFromOtherVillages...
02:09:23 PM Sep 21st 2012
edited by fenyx4
Linking to Firewalk's request here from the Naruto discussion page in the Franchise namespace, in case it's not seen there. There's a Conflicting Loyalty debate going on; hopefully, someone with adequate knowledge on the subject matter involved can attend to it if needed:
12:25:02 PM Apr 28th 2012
Just saw Blood Prison.IT WAS AWESOME. so now I'm thinking should we give it it's wn page?!

04:28:44 AM Jun 29th 2012
04:37:11 AM May 27th 2013
edited by
Um, I think Irishpride412 has difficulties navigating the site. Could anyone explain to him how to access the general discussion forum? I'm actually not sure how to do it myself, to be honest...
03:25:23 PM Oct 18th 2011
Why the uchiha clan isnt on the characters page? i really wanna see a mikoto uchiha character slot :<
06:34:44 AM Feb 10th 2011
I'm not really sure about this, but doesn't it seem odd how random charcters tend to be involved with Kyubi and whatnot despite little foreshadowing of the info earlier?

I'm only saying this because of the chapter update, so if someone is willing to clarify, that's very much appreciated.
03:27:18 PM Feb 10th 2011
Yeah, I didn't buy that either. The weapons that duo used are tied to the Sage of the Six Paths, who himself is kind of a retcon, if you look at it. Part 2 of Naruto seems to be trying to add mythology to the first half that wasn't there before and it makes what was said earlier contradictory.
04:26:38 PM Mar 1st 2011
That seems more like an example of Writing by the Seat of Your Pants. The only thing that was ever retconned was the idea of Shukaku being the spirit of an elder instead of a Bijuu.

And back to the original topic, random connections to the Kyuubi has only happened one time with the brothers. The stuff with Kushina was foreshadowed when the chains hold down the Kyuubi and the fox immediately recognizes the chakra as hers, implying familiarity, which foreshadows her being it's former jinchuriki. Granted that was only two chapters earlier, making it kind of a weak example of foreshadowing, but it's still foreshadowing.

And on to my question, Is this really something that should be on this page? Shouldn't this topic go on a forum?
09:04:20 PM Jan 5th 2011
So there's a multitude of Naruto movies (based on both the original series and the Shippuden series), yet has little to no mention on the main page or any of the related pages. Is this supposed to happen? Or should someone at least add a mention/some trope pages about the movies?
12:20:52 AM Jan 6th 2011
The movies are probably subject to Dis Continuity even more than the fillers (see summary of "Inheritors of the will of fire" a few discussions above). This is probably why they don't get much in the way of wiki love around here. Still, if you watched them and care about them enough to say something about them, by all means go ahead.
09:05:38 AM Dec 27th 2010
Why are the tropes in "Tropes Two" listed as waiting to be moved to appropriate subpages? Some of them should be (YMMV, character tropes) but many others don't have any subpage it would make sense to move them to.

The "Tropes displayed by individual characters/episodes" category was originally made for one-shot tropes that aren't an influence on the series as a whole, so they won't get in the way of the important tropes (which are now in Tropes One). It was supposed to be cleaned up, but not cleaned up out of existence.
04:56:54 PM Dec 27th 2010
edited by Manawyddan
"Appropriate subpages" means Character and/or YMMV page.

The hot tip of the "main" page about the "Trope Two" page implies that it is only a temporary one: please help write off the tropes in this post on to the relevant characters in the Naruto post, so that we can close it. I dunno who wrote it, but if it's no more the goal, the the text should be modified.

Furthermore, I haven't heard of a policiy about what is important and what is not. If there is one, I'd sincerely be glad to know it. Personnally, I'm more fond of thematic classification (for example, separate drastically what's exclusive to the anime from tropes of the manga). Or maybe an alphabetical one like the one of Bleach though I don't find it very user-friendly.

For the tropes from the manga, my idea was to move them back to the Trope One page and leave those which won't go to Characters or YMMV on the Trope Two page. But if there is a clear way of choosing which tropes go to Trope One and which go to Trope Two, I'll apply it.

Though creating one or two more subpages might be a good idea.
02:52:51 AM Dec 28th 2010
I put that tooltip, because I honestly though that was Triple Elation's intention, at least that was what I gathered from his "edit reason" for that particular edit. It seems I may have misunderstood.

So what are we to do with it?
05:35:36 AM Dec 28th 2010
edited by TripleElation
The distinction isn't important/less important, it's shows up constantly/showed up in a few episodes. Same difference, most of the time, but the latter is much less likely to be argued about.

We should leave the tropes which are just something that happened that one episode but are objective and don't have to do with a particular character alone in Tropes Two. Many tropes do need to be moved away from there (character tropes, YMM Vs) which may have been the source of the confusion.
04:33:57 PM Dec 23rd 2010
I'd like to discuss spoiler policy. Currently, there's only one mention, that anything after Itachi's last fight should be spoiler-tagged. Well, it's quite a while know, and if we'd really aply this rule, a huge amount of lines would be hidden. So shouldn't decide of a closer spoiler limit ? For example the end of the Pain arc. Of course, major plot points about the Big Bad should still be spoiler-tagged.
10:24:20 AM Dec 24th 2010
edited by ryzvonusef
Interesting, this has been changed, without discussion it seems. I remember setting the old spoiler policy, which was that any thing that has not been aired on the free version  * of Crunchyroll be spoiler-tagged.

I discussed it with other tropers, in the discussion thread (check the archived discussion), as well the forum Naruto thread, and we had decided that this would be a reasonable limit, since anybody, anywhere in the world can watch the free version legally, so they would have no problems.

I suggest we go back this standard instead, instead of an arbitrarily set standard.
03:06:08 PM Dec 25th 2010
That's okay for me. So spoilers actually stop where the anime is (?).
02:18:53 AM Dec 26th 2010
Yes, that was what was decided. It's reasonable, since the main spoiler headache is for those tropers who are following the anime only. This way, they can't complain, since they can see the episode for themselves, for free, and legally to boot.

Also, the limit is constantly moving, and helps decide what can be considered as You Should Know This By Now, and what is still spoiler-worthy.

I will check this too, but if you find any reference to spoilers, please update it to the following:

"Any thing that has not been aired on the free version  * of Crunchyroll should be spoiler-tagged"

Please remember this limit is for Naruto trope pages only, not for the Naruto forum thread, or for any other series's trope pages/ forum threads. They can have their own cutoff line.
12:54:38 AM Sep 13th 2010
I'm starting to move the various character tropes to the character sheet (that is what it's for).
04:26:40 PM Sep 26th 2010
Maybe it's related, but it seems the character's page is now full and won't allow any more entries, like it happened twice to Bleach's characters page. Does it require to be splitted, or a harsh cleaning ?
09:18:47 PM Sep 26th 2010
Wow. Seriously?

This sounds like something you should bring up on the "wiki talk" part of the forums.
09:34:19 PM Sep 26th 2010
Editing out natter might buy time...
03:56:11 AM Jul 31st 2010
edited by TripleElation
Regarding "Ship Sinking" entry part that got axed and I restored: I can see how it's not quite conventional ship sinking, but Tropes Are Flexible and you can't deny that the ship is being shown pretty horrible treatment. Now, if this were a question of just listing that particular infraction or not, I'd agree it should go, but it has a unique function of equalizing the shipping discussion and letting the article not take a side in it.

I mean, do we want the article to go on about how NaruSaku is now some sort of joke without also going on about how NaruHina getting an authorial "yeah, I don't even care" vibe? do we really? Consider that we may unnecessarily provoke English-speaking NaruSaku fans (yes- all five of them).
01:28:41 PM Jul 31st 2010
edited by RedViking
The thing is, saying that something is Ship Sinking by ongoing omission assumes that there will absolutely, positively never be any future development at all. You also acknowledge that it's flimsy evidence and your description of what happened in chapter 504 is filled with "maybe if viewed a certain way." That is not Ship Sinking.

I realize that you want to keep things fair, but look at it this way: Someone else could see your entry in Ship Sinking and interpret it as a Take That! because of that flimsy evidence. That's why it got a Justifying Edit as soon as you put it up.
01:54:27 PM Jul 31st 2010
All right, but can't we have our cake and eat it too, here? I think that a "to be fair, NaruSaku's main competition isn't getting that great of a treatment either" bullet point is at least warranted.

I can't believe I'm on a TV Tropes discussion page, doing what basically amounts to defending the right of NaruSaku to fair representation. To quote Jim Halpert, Congratulations, universe- you win.
02:46:13 PM Jul 31st 2010
edited by RedViking
What you're trying to convey is Anchored Ship. Just add it under that entry.
04:29:29 AM Aug 1st 2010
edited by TripleElation
Okay, that covers the first part. What about the informed decree?

Now I understand that some people would have it that this is flimsy stuff that requires Shipping Goggles. I don't agree. Right when Kushina appeared people were instantly pointing out her similarity to Sakura, eyes-wise and punching-stuff-randomly-wise. I think it says a lot that this was the case rather than people suddenly retroactively seeing the similarity. As for "not some weird girl", I mean, really... "weird", Out of all possible adjectives? This whole sentence seems to come out of nowhere with its contrived phrasing and timing unless you posit that it was intended as a trolling of sort, at which point it suddenly makes perfect sense. Positing that such was the case has excellent- watchamacallit- explanatory power.

I definitely think this should go somewhere (with the due reservations, of course). Jarringly enough, there doesn't seem to be a trope for it. Given the impossibly positive portrayal of the character speaking and the dramatic occasion I at least got a strong feeling that we're supposed to take their words as gospel from beyond the fourth wall. Like some lesser form of Word of God, put in the mouth of God's messenger in canon. Word Of Jesus, if you will.
01:49:33 AM Aug 2nd 2010
According to one person, weird wasn't exactly the best translation; the full meaning behind the implications lose something in english, and it was less about weird, which reminds us of Hinata, and more about 'dubious'; girls that wont treat him properly. Apparently it was just basically saying: 'Find a girl who will treaat you (love you) right.'

Besides, we shouldn't take her words as gospel that Naruto will follow; Looking back, most of the stuff she says to Naruto, he didn't really do as he grew up. Hearing it now prob wont affect him much.
07:12:37 AM Aug 3rd 2010
edited by ryzvonusef
Attention people! There is a Japanese poster on MH who very kindly corrects and elaborates Mangastream's translations every week.

On her post for CH504 she made a rather startling correction; Kushina didn't meant Naruto to not pick a weird/strange girl, rather, she wanted him not to be picked BY a weird girl, which changes the context enormously.

Further down, you will see my post asking clarification on this comment, and she agrees, Kushina's advice is most probably just generic "don't get tangled with a 'bad' girl" sort of advice, rather than some sort of shot at Hinata, which is common sense. No mother would want her son to be swept away by a girl who is only after his money or fame.
09:22:25 AM Aug 3rd 2010
Well, in character it couldn't have been a shot at Hinata, who wasn't even born yet. Hence the "gospel from beyond the fourth wall" concern.
05:57:48 PM Aug 13th 2010
edited by
And now in the first pages of chapter 505, Naruto answered to each of his mother's advices, however the one about women was left conspicuously absent...

Edit: Because, truth be told, if he had answered (at this current point, mind you) it could have gone:

"As for women... well, I have never had any luck with them..." (shot of Sakura punching him in the face)
07:04:08 AM Aug 18th 2010
edited by TripleElation
This is getting ridiculous.

Whichever way I try to add a reference to this incident in any form, no matter how tentative the wording, someone's knee-jerk reaction is to label it "shipping stuff" and revert it in hopes that if we pretend it didn't happen, it will go away. The last reversion claimed it was "natter". Well, You Keep Using That Word, etc.; a single bullet point written in a completely consistent voice is most definitely not Natter. The word you were probably looking for is "cruft". Shipcruft, to be exact.

I fully understand that shipcruft is a serious problem and if it goes unregulated it can easily get out of hand. More often than not it's wishful thinking, which takes the focus away from actual, honest-to-god canon (see recent editing history of Opposites Attract to see what I mean, and please lend a hand with excising the remaining shipcruft there while you're at it).

This is not shipcruft. This isn't even shipping at all. Sure, it was a sly message directed at shippers and likelier to be picked up when viewed through Shipping Goggles, but it's undoubtedly there. It's actually in canon, the author blatantly put it there on purpose, it's something the author was trying to get across (for whatever ends). We can't wish it away, we can't turn up our noses at it per our "shipping related stuff is second-hand wishful thinking drivel" instincts.

If we're lenient enough to list Audience Reaction Tropes for whatever goes through the heads of innumerable fans when they view the work, we sure as hell should be lenient enough to list tropes for things that obviously went through the head of the author when writing it. If someone actually thinks that the vibe this scene gives off was unintentional and borne out of some bored fans' imaginations, then that's something else that warrants discussion. But as it is it comes across as content regulation on an "I like it" vs. "I don't like it" basis. We absolutely can't have that.
07:15:46 AM Oct 24th 2014
She wasn't talking about any girl in particular just as said earlier a non-bad girl who will love you unconditionally hence Hinata. I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand.
01:01:32 PM Oct 24th 2014
That was a four year old post.
11:55:20 AM Jul 21st 2010
edited by Anaheyla
I always figured that Neji believed it, he just wasn't averse to bitching about it from here to Acapulco. "How can Destiny Say that I'm destined to be just some guy that will get killed the minute one of the main house decides they don't like the cut of my jib and Hinata is destined to be the head of a powerful clan when I'm plainly superior to her in literally every conceivable way?"

EDIT: Oh bugger, I meant to add that as a reply not a new discussion. Damnit.
02:35:29 PM Jul 14th 2010
edited by TripleElation
Regarding Narutos' parentage as breaking the Screw Destiny aesop- I made that mistake earlier too, but somebody astutely pointed out that Neji never believed your destiny was predetermined by any other influence than your own genes (or whatever else physical initial conditions you get built out of). If Pre Heel–Face Turn Neji would have heard about Naruto's parentage he probably would've gone "All right, I concede that your Parents were awesome, but you still suck". Admittedly that speech about how Naruto's dream about becoming Hokage is absurd would've lost quite a bit of oomph.

To wit: Hinata was the firstborn heiress to the Hyuuga clan, and this didn't mean a thing to Neji when he observed that she was destined to Fail Ninja Forever.
08:48:28 AM Jun 28th 2010
Does anyone know where the Shippuden movies fit within the overall continuity? Do they map to manga chapters or are they original gaiden stories?
08:11:50 PM Jun 28th 2010
edited by TripleElation
Well as far as I'm concerned the one which goes like this:

Tsunade: We must stop Naruto from rescuing his beloved sensei! He is now officially a criminal!

Shikamaru: Rationality dictates that I go along with it! Rookies, commence!

Gaara: I don't care that you've made me see the light and you are perhaps my closest friend in the world, Naruto, I must now stop you in the name of vague politics and will fling sand streams at you that might easily kill you!

Lee: Who's the guy we're out to restrain again? Naruto? Huh, that sounds familiar. Well nevermind, SIR YES SIR! RESTRAINING CRIMINAL SIR!

Hinata: N-n-n-n-naruto-kun, I'm so insanely in love with you and devoted to your ideals that I will side with everyone when they go after you for following said ideals!

Willing suspension of disbelief: *DIES IN SLOW AGONY*

10:10:39 PM Jun 28th 2010
Sounds like a (snarky) summary of Inheritors of the Will of Fire (Movie 3). Also Poor Communication Kills.
12:24:37 AM Jun 26th 2010
Are we going to have to deal with a massive Freak Out! again now that the anime has caught up to the Hinata/Pain fight? I hope not, but I'm going to be ready to do some heavy editing if that's the case.
08:16:37 PM Jun 26th 2010
You think there are that many people following specifically the subbed anime, but not the manga? I know I tried to, but at some point the Arc Fatigue from the beginning of Shippuden became too much to bear (We're setting out to the bridge... Going down to the bride... Heading out to the bridge... On our way to the bridge... Minutes now from the bridge... Closing on to the bridge... Nearly there at the bridge... Did I mention the Bridge?)
04:07:28 PM Jun 22nd 2010
Yo, I took down That Makes Me Feel Angry from Kyuubi due to it conflicting with another transslation, and seeing as the trope one was sleepy fans, not the most reliable source...

Any objections, feel free to over rule me.
08:26:05 AM Jun 21st 2010
What annoys me is the lack of anything useful naruto got during the times skip. Sasuke learned a whole deal load of techniques druing the times skip that he he uses often like the infamous chidori spear. Naruto learned how to use a weapons scroll which he used like once. He got the xxl rasengan which he only used on clone itachi and never again (i discount great ball rasengan as thats a sage justsu). Oh and breaking out of genjutsu which is absolutely useless and lampshaded by saying well then you'll have to rely on nakama. This counts for the other ninja squads too cept those sandies.
09:34:49 PM Jun 9th 2010
The It Just Bugs Me! page is broken again.
06:44:19 PM Jun 9th 2010
Chapter 498 has some implications for the Naruto/Hinata ship. Between Naruto actively hitting on his mom, complimenting her on her red hair and the old saying that men are attracted to women who are like their mothers (even lampshaded in canon by Shikamaru in an earlier chapter), it seems Kishimoto is hinting at Naruto/Sakura again. Doesn't help that the one of the first thing Kushina does to Naruto is flip out and knock him upside the head, which Sakura has always had a habit of doing...
08:16:31 PM Jun 9th 2010
edited by Anaheyla
Someone's got a shiny new pair of Shipping Goggles.

Is half a day too soon to qualify for Never Live It Down vis a vis the first thing Naruto tells his mother the first time they meet is that she's hot?
08:37:36 PM Jun 9th 2010
edited by AlmightyHamSandwich
To the first...touche.

To the second, no. It's never too soon to Never Live It Down.
11:51:40 AM Feb 28th 2013
edited by faiteslebruit
Is it really so awkward or weird for Naruto to tell his mom, who he has never seen before, that she's pretty? Considering how overjoyed he was to see her in general it seemed like just his typical tactless, knee-jerk response. He was definitely not "hitting on" her, he never brings up her looks again after that. I found that whole scene extremely heartwarming and adorable.
08:06:03 AM Jun 7th 2010
Any reason why the page title is "Nar Uto"? I'm just wondering.
08:21:53 AM Jun 7th 2010
edited by whitetigah
It's actually "Naruto", but if I understand the way the wiki software works, you get redirected to "Naruto" from any Wiki Word variation on that, but keeping the Wiki Word's capitalization. e.g.: Nar Uto, Naru To, Na R Uto... It's simply a quirk of the software.
10:25:01 AM May 4th 2010
edited by Anaheyla
On the subject of Shikamaru's Broken Aesop, I call A Million Is a Statistic...only in reverse.

Shikamaru took revenge against one man and it's AOK. Sasuke and Nagato are Omnicidal Maniacs, so it's not AOK.
02:31:57 AM May 5th 2010
That's a pretty interesting critic. For once killing many people IS actually worse than If You Kill You Will Be Just Like Him. But Sasuke was called out about his revenge in-universe (and by readers) even before he wanted to kill Konoha. Remember Kakashi's Chekhov's Lecture, just before the Sound Four broke in. At the time, Sasuke wanted to take revenge against one single man, Itachi.

I think that more explainations should have been given about what reasons exactly makee Shika's revenge OK. I have my idea, but there are few clues. If revenge is bad, it should be bad for everyone. If it's only the path taken to revenge that have to be judged...
02:33:24 AM May 5th 2010
I talked about what Kishi should have written, not you're post. :)
11:33:38 PM Jun 6th 2010
Hidan had to be dealt with anyway, because he was a threat to world peace, not to mention Naruto. Letting Shikamaru deal with him almost single-handedly was fine because Shikamaru keeps a level head.
09:41:41 AM May 4th 2010
edited by Anaheyla
New spoilers: Battle in the Center of the Mind. Yawn.
05:50:51 AM Jul 14th 2010
I am not going to put spoilers, cause the world is cruel and people need to see it.

Naruto faces off against his Dark Self, the repressed emotions of anger against the villagers(Who now want his autograph after he defeated Pein, how convenient!). The Dark Self has all his powers and confirms the fanfics of how Naruto was overprice and barred from shops and left on his own many times.

YET! Naruto, after failing to defeat Dark Naruto by sheer strength, could try and come to an understanding, probably admit he doesn't like the village that much and wants to become Hokage to prove himself the best(ONLY THING I LIKED ABOUT HIM ON THE SERIES' START!). What does he do?

He Hugs Him. He Freaking Hugs Himself. So, the Dark, Inner repressed Justified Anger and Hatred of years of abuse and injustice just needed A FUCKING HUG TO BE CONVINCED THAT THE VILLAGE IS NICE?!?!


Excuse me, for I must slash my wrists after witnessing such heresy against human logic, reason and moral. I am convinced that the world is doomed after this. This whole scene was more tragic, mind shattering and traumatizing for me than District 9 and all Slasher Filsm put together.
10:34:44 AM Jan 28th 2011
"Sigh", you do understand that your missing the point of that battle with the dark side of himself, do you? The point of the waterfall of truth is to show you the truth about yourself, and the truth is, that Naruto on some level, always resented the villge for how they treated him. BUT the real problem was that Naruto was hiding that part of his soul, even from himself, he was basically lying to himself to feel that he was better than he really was. The point of that training wasn't to beat that Dark side of himself, because that's impossible no matter what, it still would be there because it's a part of himself, a part he represses from his conciousness. And that is the problem when trying to control the Kyuubi, because there is hatred in him, that he isn't completely concious of, and the Kyuubi uses it, sort of like an open and unguarded back door, or a window he can use to influence Naruto. The point isn't to destroy that part of himself, but to acknowledge it, and stop hating it, so it stops being a weakness against the Kyuubi (since when you know your weakness, it stops being a weakness).
08:41:40 PM Apr 14th 2010
edited by Anaheyla
If that thing is an octopus why the hell does it look exactly like a squid. Stupid Kishi.

I wanna say Artistic License - Biology, but I'm not sure it qualifies.
03:17:55 AM Apr 15th 2010
You'd have to reread your chapter. It's clearly identified with a squid, and the difference between squid and octopus is clearly explained. Naruto has to count the tentacles, but he's Book Dumb after all. And the octopus-like Hachibi comes in then, and it's obviously this one the prophecy is about. And no, it's not some biological error, given the Giant Toad sage said is vision was "blurry" and he wasn't completely sure if it was an octopus.

Unjustified and hasty rant. *sigh* Do you post only for whining ?
07:54:11 AM Apr 15th 2010
*shrugs* Everybody can have their fun, can't they? If he likes whining about everything that is possibly mistake, then let him do it.(though, considering that Kishimoto apparently knew that octopus can kill sharks, it would be weird for him to confuse squid with octopus)
08:15:33 AM Apr 15th 2010
Also, can we please stop with the irrelevant chapter ramblings in the trope discussion page? Unless you are discussing a specific trope relevant to the main Naruto page, please keep your chapter comments to the Naruto Forum page
08:40:37 AM Apr 15th 2010
Count me in.
12:32:05 PM Apr 15th 2010
edited by Anaheyla
Speculation on whether a given trope applies is an irrelevant chapter rambling?

And I do not whine. I complain. There's a difference.
08:25:53 AM Apr 16th 2010
edited by Anaheyla
Oh, no, dear friend, that most definitely isn't irrelevant, however, things like

Anaheyla topic 07:06:36 AM Mar 9th 2010 Spoilers for 486 are out. Goddamn you, Naruto. :facepalm

most certainly are. I could quote more, or you could just look them up.

You have full permission to express these feelings, even complain loudly, IN CAPS!!! with your fellow tropers, including yours truly, in the forum thread, but not here.

Please leave this for its original purpose, which was discussing stuff like "does trope X fit explanation Y?"
11:49:18 AM Apr 16th 2010
Touché, but if you're going to complain, do it in the right topic, so as to avoid misunderstandings. :P
10:35:46 AM Apr 7th 2010
edited by Halinmonk
Hinata is one of the best characters in the show/manga. WHY THE HELL DO WE NOT GET ANY FRIGING RESOLUTION ON HER FREAKING MOST IMPORTANT MOMENT IN HER Character Development AT ALL. IT'S bee what? 50 chapters ago? A girl confesse her love for you and you the first thing you do when getting back from your fight is ignore her and go eart RAMEN.


Is there any type of explenation from Kishimoto at all?
10:54:29 AM Apr 7th 2010
edited by RedViking
You want the truth? She's not as important to the plot as the fandom makes her out to be.
02:36:46 PM Apr 7th 2010
edited by Anaheyla
Hinata is moving scenery at the best of times. Flippin Udon and Moegi are more important than she is.

Write it down to Kishimoto making Konoha kunoichi utterly useless subfodder so as to focus on the main character, Sasuke and his equally unimportant ex-boyfriend, Naruto.
06:23:28 AM Apr 8th 2010
edited by SpookyMask
Hey, at least she got mention in latest chapter =P You should be happy, it will take another arc or two before its mentioned again.

By the way, why people still consider Sasuke main character? I mean, how many shonen mangas beside Death Note have Villain Protagonist?(besides, Naruto is shonen fodder, it can't be that much different from other fodder.)
08:01:28 AM Apr 8th 2010
edited by Halinmonk
Sasuke's Spot Light Stealing Squad role is so powerful that it might aswell be named Sasuke rather then Naruto.

I just dont get how even Naruto could be thick enough to totaly disregard a confession of love in favor of ex-friends/lieing chicks/and ramen.

Also. I always thought that L and then Near where the protagonists of Death Note and the story just focused more on the antagonist (Light/Raito).

09:06:22 AM Apr 8th 2010
edited by SpookyMask
I can understand what you mean, but still, Sasuke has been portrayed as rival turned evil so I don't get the fuss. Its not like its first time when manga has focused on rival/villain/on another character for arc or so.

Of course, I have only two reactions to Naruto after time skip chapters. "=/ Boring" and "XD".
09:19:12 PM Apr 8th 2010
An arc or so wouldn't be a problem.

But Sasuke is directly or indirectly tied in a major way to every problem the world has, everyone's attention is focused on him and for shits and giggles, the main character's irrational attachment to him is the main reason he's allowed to waltz around doing anything he wants without any lasting repercussions.
09:31:58 PM Apr 8th 2010
edited by SpookyMask
*shrugs* I guess I can see your point. Anyway, shonen fodder rules say that rival turned evil has to be redeemed... But guessing how long this has gone off, it probably happens at end of manga if at all.(usually in fodder rival is evil for arc, then he is get back into group for next arc)
11:26:00 PM Jun 6th 2010
Well it's realistic enough- "We have a situation, no time to talk," is perfectly reasonable considering what's happened.
12:02:00 PM Mar 31st 2010
Guys, you really need to take this Hinata thing to discussion instead of arguing on the edit page.
07:22:05 PM Mar 31st 2010
I'm fine with with Manwaydan...or however you spell his/her name...'s edit.
11:09:45 AM Mar 30th 2010
New spoilers are out.

Epic Face Palm.
11:51:24 AM Mar 30th 2010
It's not like there's no precedence for it.
11:56:10 AM Mar 30th 2010
No less Face Palm-ish.

On the other hand, this could be a way for Kishimoto to bring back the series' one true deserving (not to mention only interesting) villain, Orochimaru-sama!

But back on hand one, Kishi would never oust the Uchihas from their spotlight stealing thrones.
11:56:31 AM Mar 30th 2010
Oh come on! Madara facing off against Akatsuki zombies?! What's not to like?!

No seriously, this has the potential to be Crazy Awesome.
12:30:58 PM Mar 30th 2010
It's not that he's facing off against Akatsuki. It's that Kabuto decides not to actually attack and instead offers a Villain Team-Up.
03:15:25 PM Mar 30th 2010
Why attack someone when you can get others to do it for you? I say that's fighting smart.
04:18:03 PM Mar 30th 2010
edited by Anaheyla
Any opportunity missed to kill an Uchiha is an opportunity that will never come again.

Even if he's trying to manipulate Madara into doing his dirty work, we all know that it's not going to happen the way he expects it to. Now, it's not a question of if a bridge will be dropped on Kabuto, but when.
09:06:39 AM Mar 31st 2010
edited by SpookyMask
Eh, I hated Orochimaru. Plus, I don't get how mind control puppet bodies are that bad thing, after all if jutsu for it exists, why nobody uses it?

Besides, only reason everyone seems to hate edo tensei since they fear that way Kishi will wake dead chars alive. Oh come one, it creates zombies! Everybody knows that japanese like bishies! Can zombies be bishies?
10:11:40 AM Mar 31st 2010
Orochimaru was the bomb. He's certainly more interesting than Nagato, and it goes without saying that Madara is entirely superfluous.

And no one said the use of Edo Tensei was a bad thing. My complaint is that Kabuto will get the bridge drop and Madara will remain in power as the Big Bad.
09:39:48 PM Mar 31st 2010
Oh, I see...(note: I read One Manga's forums, and they seem to be afraid that either Kishi will use Edo Tensei as excuse to not create new villains or somehow resurrects dead chars.(in way of not putting them under control of Kabuto)
11:37:28 PM Apr 6th 2010
If I recall correctly, the Hokages were resurrected under Orochimaru's control but retained some of their personality. I'm interested to see how their condition might affect Deidara and Sasori's ongoing "Art as fleeting vs. enduring" discussion.
02:38:18 PM Apr 7th 2010
You're very optimistic.

I doubt Kishimoto will waste any time on trying to develop characters that are actually interesting and continue focusing on the Uchihas.
05:49:35 PM Aug 15th 2010
If you have such a low opinion of Kishimoto and his manga why do you continue reading it? your reasoning seems to be that Naruto is only about the uchihas. You hate the uchihas. My question is why are you reading a manga that is about something you hate?
07:31:01 PM Oct 29th 2010
...I find it kinda odd that Anaheyla was disappointed that he didn't fight him when I found 7 reasons to Wall Banger at that page. 1: Nagato is a crippled corse. Without his wheelchair he wouldn't be too useful. 2: Itachi has NO EYES. Madara had just taken them out. Lotta good a blind guy does you without awesome Toph earthbending senses. 3: Sasori...was in Kankuro's possession, wasn't he? We saw at the Kage summit. 4: Kakuzu's body has been Rasenshuriken'd. He literally CANNOT MOVE EVEN IF HE WERE ALIVE. 5: KAKUZU IS IN KONOHA'S POSSESSION. How did Kabuto get his hands on that? 6: Deidara exploded. We all saw it. The reason we didn't see a body is because HIS BODY WAS THE BOMB. How the hell can he have such a corpse? 7: Kabuto should know all of this. He's KABUTO. He should be keeping tabs on everyone at once.

And now we see that Deidara is actually been brought back by Kabuto for usefulness. So, Madara, screw your old plans, Kabuto can bend the laws of space and recreate a body from nothing.
03:40:00 AM Oct 30th 2010
Sigh...Edo tensei NEVER required access to the original body!!
01:14:23 PM Oct 30th 2010
edited by Beyondnor
Really? When did it say that? The only time it was used before was to resurrect the First and Second Hokage, wasn't it? It only makes sense that you'd need the original body, because Orochimaru was in Konoha when he brought up the corpses, which is logically where they should be. The original body is probably the only real ingredient other than the jutsu itself. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to replicate the Kekkei Genkai with your own chakra, and if you could, why not go ahead and summon a whole bunch of the same dead ninja, like Nagato?. Of course you should need the body, it doesn't make sense otherwise.

EDIT: Alright, I just looked it up and recalled it. I completely forgot about Zaku and Kin being used as sacrifices. Alright, then it would work, but I'm still a little miffed that such a technique exists that can break the laws of life and death to bring back someone who could resurrect people on a whim(Nagato).
02:22:41 PM Oct 30th 2010
edited by TripleElation
I call zombie Nagato not being able to resurrect anyone via Obvious Rule Patch.
03:13:21 PM Mar 24th 2010
"I can't defeat Sasuke at his current level."

Can you say Blatant Lies?
06:19:06 PM Mar 24th 2010
No, YOU CAN'T. He genuinely thinks so, even if he may (or may not) be wrong.
06:31:22 PM Mar 24th 2010
edited by Anaheyla
If that's true, I'm torn on whether to accuse Naruto of holding an Idiot Ball or being Too Dumb to Live.

And really, how does one go from "I'll kill you then myself" to "I can't beat him period" in the space of a single chapter?
09:39:29 AM Mar 25th 2010
"To kill each other" is a clear expression I think. Naruto never said or intended to say that he'll kill him then himself. It's some twisted understanding of his words. He basically means "we will fight at full force, and none of us will give up ou even back up, so we'll die in the process", because of exhaustion, or crippling mutually infliged injuries. It's not something particularly original. To defeat evil, sometimes you have to die in the process. So, for Naruto, the terms are these: "I'll make Sasuke change his views, or we'll fight until we die".

So he really can't beat him, in his point of view. Furthermore, it is possible that he was able to see what is Sasuke completer. If they're strictly equal, Naruto is still right: if they're strictly equal, they can't beat each other.

Other point: since he met Nagato, Naruto's goal is to find a way to change the shinobi's world. Killing Sasuke would simply be doing the same thing made ages before, and it won't solve anything, given that Madara is the real threat.

Last point, "I can't beat him" can be understood different ways. Rather than "I'm not able to", it can be "I'm not allowed" or "I can't morally do that".

There's many tropes less subjective which could fit than the rantings ones linked to stupidity: Jedi Truth, From a Certain Point of View, but I think the best is the classical Heroic Self-Deprecation. Naruto is very accustomed to it since at least Jiraiya's death.
09:45:13 AM Mar 25th 2010
Sorry, I forgot some words (why there is not a preview ?).

"Furthermore, it's possible that he was able to seee what is Sasuke's strength in perfect health". He doesn't judge Sasuke's state of health, but his level."

"Doing the same thing done from ages".
11:05:18 AM Mar 25th 2010
Killing Sasuke would remove a major obstacle to taking down Madara, as well as deal a large blow to Madara's plans. Killing Sasuke would prevent him from trying to kill everyone in Konoha. Naruto's gonna have to kill Madara too.

If he wants to change the world, more power to him, but if he really thinks he can do this by joining hands with his friends and singing Kumbaya My Lord, then he's sadly mistaken.

I call Idiot Ball to Beyond the Impossible levels.

P.S. Jedi Truth and From a Certain Point of View are the same trope. :)
04:29:56 PM Apr 2nd 2010
Sasuke is the only one upon whom the Talk no Jutsu didn't work. :)Naruto thinks that if he fails in changing Sasuke, then he won't succeed in changing the world.

The attitude of the rest of the world towards Sasuke after he would have change his a different point. An expectable outcome if Naruto succeeds is to have Sasuke going through a My God, What Have I Done? moment and becoming The Atoner, willingly facing any punition he could receive. By the way, if Naruto change the world, death penalty would probably be abolished (not sure, given death penalty is still applied in Japan).

...Yeah, I'm European.
11:30:31 PM Apr 6th 2010
I'm pretty sure topping his agenda as Nth Hokage is reforming the Clan System, so people like Neji don't have to have Manji's on their foreheads. After that, health care.
09:57:10 PM Jun 1st 2010
The only problem with Naruto's talks is that, when you read them and actually think about it for a second you'll basically realize the whole reason why Sasuke doesn't buy any of Naruto's words. Naruto is holding ridiculous amounts of double standard once it comes to Sasuke, he basically wants to prevent Sasuke from receiving punishment for being a terrorist, and yet has tried to kill others for doing far less than Sasuke ever did. There is a difference between forgiving someone and letting them off for committing a crime. Even Jesus would forgive for committing a crime but he wouldn't get in the way of you receiving punishment for committing it.
05:26:47 AM Jul 14th 2010
Like I commented before on Naruto's mind state, he is immature. He can fathom kill anyone who goes against people Naruto considers precious, yet he can't kill someone he considers precious, even if they are the devil. He has lived so long in this mind state that, if he killed Sasuke, he would have one massive Heroic BSOD, followed by Driven to Suicide. Even Sasuke realizes Naruto is childish, which is why he never considered him a friend to start with. He's more friendly to Suigetsu, a more intelligent and brave ninja who even threatened to kill him once, than to Naruto, a stupid, love-lacking guy who's got into his mind Sasuke's his best friend. If not for his vengeance-problem(Which I blame on Itachi entirely), Sasuke would be THE SANEST PERSON on Naruto's world. In some ways, I like Sasuke way better than Naruto. Too bad Kishimoto decided to derail him. I can only hope he gets a badass death after kicking Naruto's ass a little.
07:57:51 AM Mar 19th 2010
Sasuke's status as a Complete Monster has been challenged. That Other 1 Dude seems to believe it's not possible to become one, you have to be one from the start.

I disagree, as this is what the Moral Event Horizon is all about.

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, acts like a duck and indeed meets every requirement to be considered a duck, can it be considered anything other than a duck?

If Sasuke has crossed the Moral Event Horizon(which he did), and if he fits every whatchajigger to be considered a Complete Monster(which he does), how can he be considered anything but?
11:01:58 AM Mar 19th 2010
edited by RedViking
To be fair, I can see where he's coming from.

The thing is, Sasuke's Moral Event Horizon was only a few chapters ago and he still has a massive amount of Draco In Leather Pants appeal. (Not insinuating that he's a Sasuke fanboy here.) Because of that, I think a lot of people remember Sasuke as who he used to be, not what he is now.

The entire reason the Complete Monster entry had all those bullet points was to remind people exactly what he did to get to that point and that, deep down, Sasuke is not a good person anymore.
11:45:31 PM Jul 23rd 2011
edited by mlaw109
You *can* cross the MEH without being a Complete Monster. Running through the criteria, I'm not sure—and I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm actually rather confused—on whether or not he fits.

1. Actions are heinous by the standards of the story. (Check) No attempt is made to gloss over the fact. YMMV, characters keep commenting on how he's a sad consequence of the times.

2. Always played seriously. (Check) Disliked by non-C.M. villains...well, his chief ally (Madara) is undoubtedly a C.M., so it's not really a factor.

3. No Freudian Excuse. Sad backstory can be present but it cannot be near enough to justify his present actions. This is pretty YMMV, for a few reasons:

—if something bad happens in Naruto, it tends to happen to Sasuke. Forget Freudian Excuse, the destruction of his happiness and sanity unfolds on-screen. Counterpoint: it doesn't validate wanting to kill everyone. Counter-counterpoint: Declaration of Omnicidal Maniac intent and going through with it are two different things. He -very likely- will not succeed, but whether or not he fits this third criteria will probably boil down to 1. how far he gets 2. whether he's stopped solely by an outside force (Naruto) or by the force of his own conscience.

4. Completely devoid of altruistic qualities. (SUPER CHECK, post Danzo fight.)

5. No chance of redemption. No one thinks so but Naruto...but he has a knack for proving everyone wrong. I'd have to say he doesn't fit this one, but only because Naruto leans on the idealistic end of the scale. Whether or not Sasuke's redemption would be a Karma Houdini really has to do with how Kishi handles it. If Sasuke, in his atonement, suffers proportionately to the harm he's done—not the harm he says he's going to do, the harm he actually succeeds in doing—then it's probably averted.

See, I'd have to say Sasuke doesn't qualify overall, mainly because of the larger framework of the setting. Kishi's C.M.s are rather deliberate, and Sasuke (even now) is being treated with relative sympathy, most of the characters who've resolved to kill him still don't want to. Kind-of an in-universe D.I.L.P. if you ask me, but again, Naruto is an idealistic story.
07:06:36 AM Mar 9th 2010
Spoilers for 486 are out. Goddamn you, Naruto. :facepalm
11:23:24 AM Mar 9th 2010
Honor Before Reason if I ever saw it. Damn it.
06:26:42 AM Mar 11th 2010
edited by ryzvonusef
Given that Naruto is pretty much on the idealistic side of the scale, responses like Naruto's are a given. I don't see the problem.
12:33:02 PM Mar 12th 2010
He's willing to die because he can't save Sasuke. Expected or not, it's still a stupid move.
09:17:52 AM Mar 13th 2010
not exactly. it is more of a "taking you down with me". He realizes he might not be able to defeat a uber haxxed sasuke and survive, but he is still warning him that he can atleast assure his defeat at the cot of his life (i.e. M.A.D.). This point of view is further strengthened by Sasuke' retort.
12:45:53 PM Mar 13th 2010
The only way Sasuke can win any fight with Naruto as Naruto is now is if A: Naruto literally lets him win and/or B: he pulls a new powerup out of his ass. Both of these scenarios are incredibly likely.

The fact that Naruto believes they are evenly matched means that he's not very good at determining power levels. :P
01:00:59 PM Mar 13th 2010
Oh please, just. don't. begin. with power levels. Naruto is perfecly able to infer what might be Sasuke's power at full force. Plus, a tired Sasuke's chidori put a draw with a completely fine Naruto's rasengan... So Yeah.

Plus count some Heroic Self Depreciation given Naruto has never defeated Sasuke.
12:13:01 AM Mar 15th 2010
edited by Anaheyla
As I remember, Sasuke's chakra was restored by Karin. Add in the fact that Chidori gets stronger the more its juiced while Rasengan is a set amount of chakra.

All that Naruto has shown takes a big smelly crap on any of Sasuke's feats, considering that Naruto fought a Kage level ninja for a prolonged amount of time where Sasuke was incapable of surviving two seconds against any one Kage without having to run away / pull something new out of his ass / some combination thereof.

Then there's Sage Mode, which combined with Naruto's absurd chakra reserves could be maintained indefinitely while Sasuke's Susanoo lasts for a few minutes while Sasuke grows progressively weaker with every passing second.

Sasuke will need to pull something new out of his ass to compete with Naruto on any level, much less in a fight to the death.
12:42:44 PM Mar 16th 2010
edited by Anaheyla
And speak of the Devil. Spoilers are out. Sasuke is going to take Itachi's eyes and gain the Eternal Mangekyo. If my cynical exageration of Kishimoto's love of Sasuke is correct, this will make Sasuke a true omnipotent.

Though I guess EMS isn't really an Ass Pull. Plenty of Foreshadowing. Meh. I'm still count this as a point for me. :P
10:49:51 PM Mar 18th 2010
edited by
Hmm, considering that since Madara isn't that uber, I guess Sasuke would just get ability use Susanoo/Amaterasu as long he has chakra without drawbacks. And considering that Madara was defeated even with his EMS, I don't think that he will become god.(Besides, if this Manga is as predictable as I guess, Naruto will master Kyubi too)

Besides, there is still Itachi's gift.
10:10:46 AM Mar 19th 2010
Screw it all. Im just pissed about Sakura being put back on the side lines god danm it.

Her lines in the last few chapters scream Character Derailment
05:15:58 AM Jul 14th 2010
I can't say that is surprising. Naruto's character can't simply fathom the fact that some people just don't deserve to live. Igf we analyze his character, Naruto only knows and understands what he was taught and can't seem to absorb any knowledge or point of view other than his own. In his deluded point of view, Sasuke, who never thought of him as nothing more than a temporary teammate, is his best friend, although all they were shown to be was mere colleagues. Let's be frank, Naruto didn't have many friendships before Team 7. As such, in his undevelopment mind, anyone who passes more than one hour around him without fearing and shunning him is his friend, even if they mistreat him like Sakura or mock him like Sasuke. He doesn't get real freindship, so he can't get the concept of Sasuke never being his friend. The only basis for an friend he has was Iruka, who was harsh on him because he was his teacher.

In my vision, Naruto's character is immature and no ammount of idealistic and messianic crap Kishimoto pulls out of his ass can really convince me of otherwise.
01:45:54 AM Mar 9th 2010
edited by RedViking
Concerning this:

  • Writer on Board: Kishimoto seems to have some... issues... with women. He appears to openly hate Sakura and admitted in an interview that he has deliberately writen her to be in his words "detestable" because that's how he believes women really are. It would also explain why virtually every girl to appear in the series recently (Tsunade, Hinata, Karin) has been getting such a raw deal.

From what I remember, Kishimoto wrote Sakura the way he did to symbolize human weakness, not because he hates her. As for the rest of that quote, does the interview actually say that in those exact words or is this something you heard from someone claiming to have read said interview?

If you're going to go as far as to accuse someone of sexism and say there's actual proof of it, you better provide it instead of claiming that it exists on the internet somewhere.
02:48:31 AM Mar 9th 2010
And it's not Sakura either. Lee also embodies human weakness, and he is, you know, male.
06:16:46 PM Mar 17th 2010
edited by TripleElation
Wait, so Hinata's latest moment in the spotlight was also supposed to come off as detestable? Did I miss a memo?
09:44:23 PM Jun 1st 2010
Its not just Sakura why people say that its the way that Kishimoto treats women in general. Any woman that is strong is never shown often or Kishimoto writes her in such a way that she ends up being useless as the story continues. The reason why fans say this is not just Sakura but also for all of the other female characters as well.
11:19:47 PM Jun 6th 2010
I figured Sakura was intended to subvert the idea of being a Shonen hero's love interest. In other words, she's supposed to be obnoxious and shallow, and she only thinks she's grown out of it.
05:06:59 AM Jul 14th 2010
Really, do you realize just how sexist Kishimoto is? I mean:

Tenten - Only Badass Kunoichi from Naruto's age. Kishimoto reveals he made her as an show character for Lee(Male)'s team and would never develop her. Hinata - X-Ray Hawk-eye girl who can kill a man with a palm to the heart. Too shy to even fight more often or tell Naruto(Male) she likes him until he's almost getting killed by Pein, only for him to never comment on it, being to worried about Sasuke. Sakura - Supposely smartest kunoichi of all, who punches Naruto for the silliest of reasons, has all her badass moments cut short or become too eye-rolling, has flings of sudden self-confidence and self-loathing and STILL CAN'T GET OVER THE FACT SASUKE(Male) NEVER ACKNOWLEDGED HER AS ANYTHING OTHER THAN A NUISANCE! Ino - Naruto's Barbie Girl who could use Telepathy to defeat anyone. Barely shows up just to make out how awesome Shikamaru(Male) is. Haku(Come on, We know it's a girl messing with Naruto) - On her own words, Zabuza's slave. Tsunade - Supposely Best Medical Ninja in the World who can kill a man with a punch... who just fought in two battles so far and did nothing in the latter to say at least. Konan - Only chick in Akatsuki who can make a paper cut be your last vision... yet she never, ever fights for real and is basically Pein's maid. Kushina - Supposely a Tomboy Badass Mother who had Minato whipped. Manga has her become an housewife, female version of Naruto who has got NOTHING TO SAY on her son's miserable and outcast life! Made worse by the fact she wanted to be Fourth Hokage and lost the title to Minato. ANY OTHER GIRL IN THE ANIME: Villainesses(Tayuya, Guren, Karin, Movie Antagonists) - Awesome, Badass and often have gruesome and humiliating deaths or are just converted by Naruto. Made worse now Karin has been enchanted by Naruto's "Chakra". Heroines/Protagonists(Koyuki, Amaru, Shion, etc...) - Often thrown in to show just how awesome Naruto's conversing powers are.

Let's be serious here, Kishimoto often makes women in the series defined only by the guys they're hooked up with. They have little to no willstrength and just serve to point out how awesome the guys are. And the villainesses often suffer painful deaths(Most usually by Sakura in some curbstomp battle). If you gave the whole series of Naruto to an reasonable person, it would be a series in par with Star Wars.

I can only sigh and watch as the nightmare continues. Sakura or Hinata could have had been great characters...
03:58:53 AM Jul 22nd 2010
edited by DrHQ
Uh, possible spoiler warning. If you consider one panel or non plot events a spoiler...


You may disagree but I saw it this way (spoilered just in case):

:Kurenai, surrounded by male characters, is singled out and given a message of staying alive so that she'll have kids. This isn’t a general message, it’s specifically aimed at Kurenai through the use of possessive pronouns. ‘MY daughter’ ‘Give ME a grandchild.’ No talk of them being her kids just that they are his grandkids. It seems she has no choice in the matter. He doesn't say anything to the surrounding boys about becoming fathers, and seems focused on Kurenai becoming a mother. No consideration of her choice or her opinions. This sours the fact that she does eventually have a kid. It makes the whole thing seem less like her active choice to have kids, and more like she's afraid of failing her father

Of course, it could just be me
12:40:57 PM Jul 23rd 2010
07:48:19 PM Aug 11th 2010

Exactly. She is being ordered to be nothing more than that. IT'S PATHETIC!
04:04:40 AM Aug 22nd 2010
^ I don't get what the fuss is all about ? You want her dad to order all her life or something ? It's not like she was ordered to do that and nothing else. she's still free to do whatever she wants.

IMO, it's her dad. What dad do not dream of : 1 ) His daughter living a happy life. 2 ) getting a grandchild.

You're Completely Missing the Point.

It's about transmitting the will of fire to the next generation. The same subplot was used with the "King" in the Immortal Arc when Asuma died.
08:39:30 PM Feb 23rd 2011
edited by ninjadude853
Okay Death-Messenger? Dr HQ? Can I point out that the guy telling Kurenai to have kids was her father? This may come as a shock to some people, but parents wanting grandchildren isn't even remotely unusual, in fact it's pretty damn common, we even have a trope for it! I won't deny that having him tell her that right in front of all her peers was an assholeish move, it totally was. But there's never really been any point in the series implying this attitude towards all the women.

Look, Naruto does have a few too many Faux Action Girls. But that's not because Kishi is sexist, it's because there are Loads and Loads of Characters. There are plenty of male characters who are constantly getting their asses kicked, Rock Lee Suigetsu, Juugo, Deidara, and Kiba for example haven't ever won any of the fights they get into... ever (except for that pre-chunin exam fight with Sasuke). Not to mention Kakashi's overly long stint in the Worf Effect. Has he actually won any fight on his own since Zabuza? And did Sai do anything in the time between his introductory arc and the war?

Don't forget about the Fifth Mizukage, Temari, Chiyo, Kushina, Tayuya, Tsunade and Konan either. All of these women are badasses

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