This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
"Ship Sinking: Chapter 469 sure looks like it, with Sakura spending half the chapter making an Anguished Declaration Of Love, insisting that she's no longer in love with Sasuke...only to have Naruto reject her in the final panel, saying that he hates when people lie to themselves. It doesn't help that the whole ordeal starts out as Ship Tease, seems to evolve to near Relationship Upgrade and veers one eighty degrees to climax in a Take That to Naru Saku shippers who were expecting her to suddenly get over Sasuke for no reason and suddenly hook up with Naruto. Her confession is pretty much what you get in Fan Fiction pairing the two of them. "
Super Shifty: I'm getting really sick of the Naru Hina and Naru Saku fans so quickly grasping on to whatever might 'sink' the rival ship. Guys, news flash: the canon isn't over yet, and no one else gives a shit about your petty squabbles over who bumps uglies with who in an action comic aimed at middle school boys. Quit spamming TV Tropes with your geeky obsessive little shipping war.
Red Viking: Thank you
Super Shifty: Ah, seriously! Why do I need to keep deleting this? Cut it out. Can't you shippers give the non-shippers breathing room? Seriously, they're not going to decisively nuke any ships before the story is over. That would destroy the tension, no matter how stupid and tiresome it's getting. Kishimoto doesn't love you, and he probably doesn't care about how much you love your ship, whether you're Naruhina or Narusaku. Realistically, he just wants to complete his deadlines and eventually finish the storyline. And the rest of us aren't interested in seeing your retarded little ship war plastered all over an otherwise respectable wiki. You shippers drive everyone crazy, but most of us are too afraid of you to say so. For example, the Anguished Declaration of Love entry about Sakura looks good; it's not filled with obvious venom towards the rival ship or jumps into conclusions fueled by Fan Wank, but just objectively states facts. This is fine. This isn't annoying. When writing shipping tropes, do it like this.
Triple Elation: All right, let's try to have the entry address this without getting in the face of anyone.
Nlpnt: Changed Schizo Tech again. Word of God says only modern weapons are out
. Engines exist but aren't ubiquitous- look in WMG for my theory as to why.
Looney Toons: I don't know why you nuked my trope list so severely, Andyroid, but I drew them all from the Wiki itself. I've replaced them, and added corroborative detail to most. If you still disagree, please don't just remove them here, but remove the Naruto examples from the trope entries themselves, because that's where the details come from.
Andyroid: I think I know what happened now. I was working on the entry about the same time, but I was at work and got called AFK to do something, so my entry must have overwritten yours when I came back to finish it. My bad.
Looney Toons: Ah, yeah, I can see how that could happen. Okay, no problem at all. Sorry to accuse.
Morgan Wick: The timed lockouts are still in effect, right? If so, I can't see how it would happen. This is the sort of situation they're supposed to prevent.
Looney Toons: The timed lockouts are for 10 minutes. If he were called away for longer than that, the lockout would timeout and the page would reopen for other people — like, say, me — to edit.
Gus: Hmm. Maybe a notification that your lock has expired/was overridden would be handy.
Morgan Wick: Wait, wait, wait. The lockout notice we have says "If you do not save your changes before then, they will be lost." Is this not true?
Red Shoe: It's kinda inaccurate. Your changes will be lost if you don't send them whether or not your time expires. If you try to send them after time expires, you'll either get your lock back (In which case, it behaves exactly like you'd opened up the edit, copied the old text, went away, then opened the editor again later and pasted it over anything that happened to be there) or get yelled at for trying to edit when someone else had a lock.
But on another note, is 'stigmata' right? In context, it sounds like the word wanted there is 'stigma', but in this genre of anime, either one could be true for all I know.
Seth: New image hotlinked and too big. Reverted. If you want to add that one shrink it down a bit and upload it onto the servers first.
Rogue 7: Removed the Reed Richards Is Useless entry, as Shikamaru had been deleted from the actual trope page for a while. Later: removed the Hyuuga reference to Blank White Eyes- the trope doesn't describe them.
Tanto: Akatsuki doesn't use holograms; it's fairly obvious that that's a jutsu, I think.
Also, shouldn't we wait until we find out what Madara Uchiha's plan actually is before we label it a Wall Banger? I guess you could argue that Madara himself was insufficiently foreshadowed or something, but Madara himself hasn't really done anything of note in the actual series.
Later: ...Haku's not a Gender Bender; he's just a Bishōnen. Trope doesn't apply. Removing.
Zelnor: I think in the recent volumes, the Uchiha Syndrome has become so blaring, this troper swaggers in his affection for the series. Sasuke, Itachi, Sasuke, Itachi, Sharingan, Ita-squee, Sas-
Tanto: Given that the Uchihas are universally portrayed as at best arrogant and at worst sociopathically evil (and that the story isn't over yet), I'd have to say we're not at the Marty Stu level yet.
Me, I'll personally be shocked if the series doesn't end with the decidedly non-Uchiha Naruto kicking the shit out of Sasuke or Madara or both, so...
Chaos Akita: Given the events in chapter 397, do you think we could classify Itachi as an anti-hero? It turns out that he was a "good guy" and loved his brother after all
Rogue 7: We don't know the full story yet. And I'm praying that Itachi's still a baddie or else working for his own self-interest. I hate the guy too much for me to be satisfied with anything else.
Antheia: Cut the following from Schizo Tech:
- subverted in the original short story, where guns are used to kill naruto's first friend
... because it's not really a subversion of the Schizo Tech trope.
Chaos Akita: As of chapter 401, do we think we could put Itachi's sparing of Sasuke into a trope or something?
Eldariel: Where's the Inverse Ninja Effect? Do we have a page for it or no? It's totally a common trope, and a prime part of Naruto - OK, added. Seriously WTF people, it's like the signature of Naruto!
Tanto: Conservation of Ninjutsu. Try searching.
bud0011:Should we include the following somewhere on the main article?
Rogue 7: 1 and 3. The other two don't get inclusions, but the others should.
bud0011: alright. but, if you don't mind me asking, why not on 2 and 4?
Rogue 7: Wiki policy, based on the many hours I've wasted here. WMG and It Just Bugs Me! are separate things from the main wiki, basically pseudo-forums. No other series link to them. Character sheets are basically a place to put up tropes and info about characters without cluttering up the main page of the show, and Abridged Serieses usually are linked mainly as reference
- Hidden Elf Village: Averted. The ninja "villages" are hidden in name only and working shinobi spend a large chunk of their lives on the road.
Tanto: This doesn't have anything to do with anything.
Plasma Wing: Cut some natter. Also
- Please Select New City Name: Konoha (English manga), Hidden Leaf Village (Cartoon Network dub).
- In the original Japanese version, Konoha is a short form of Konohagakure no Sato ("Village Hidden in the Leaves").
- I Just Want to Be Normal: Nara Shikamaru
Jack:
The commercial translation is its in order to be able to do whatever he wanted. Highly-Visible Ninja world. Having a career as a ninja isn't abnormal (it'd be more noteworthy if he did not become a ninja). Shikamaru intended to be the most average ninja he could be, living the most average life he could. (Advancing to and staying a Chunin, finding an average woman to be his wife, having the requisite two kids, and retiring). Heck, he even observed the dress code. Meanwhile his teacher pegs him as a potential kage, and his She Is Not My Girlfriend is the daughter and sister of kages. He just wanted to be normal.
Broken Chaos: Along the same vein as Spotlight-Stealing Squad, we could always start calling Sasuke a Breakout Character.
Rogue 7: With regards to Kill Em All, I don't think it really applies. From what I saw, Hinata is definitely not dead. Naruto would go batshit insane if that happened, at least 4-tails level. I think many of the ninja are all right- Tsunade pulled out all the stops with Katsuyu to save them- and that may apply to villagers, too. Let's just wait and see until we've got better intel. Edit: Upon viewing of spoilers for ch. 437, I may have been a bit prophetic with that comment.
Clendy82: I am not in favor of posting spoilers from the current story arc, particularly Hinata's presumed death here, even ghosted, anymore than necessary. Yes, I'm aware of the irony in the previous sentence. At risk of being an Entry Pimp, I think that the Anyone Can Die entry is the only one that's appropriate at this point, simply because I've taken careful steps to qualify the death toll as presumptive. Until we see the body and see it buried in the cold, unforgiving earth, any trope example that has the above spoilered event as the sole example should be cleared out.
On top of that, I would dispute the Stuffed into the Fridge entry. The trope focuses on death for the sake of death as a plot device to the exclusion of all else. The example given comes close, what with the not succeeding and all, but I think it should be taken in the Heroic Sacrifice (or even Stupid Sacrifice) manner it was intended. Keep in mind that she didn't succeed on her own, her overall goal was achieved. The logical alternative, which was presumably seconds away from completion, would have been Pain using the chakra blades in Naruto to teleport/reverse summon him away to have the Nine-tails extracted. Despite the unfortunate results, she was the only one willing to make a move against such completely hopeless odds. A more accurate trope example would be if, say, Hinata has fought Pain somewhere in the forest and was killed, only for Naruto to find her at some point in the near future. Exact same set of events, but with no purpose behind it. The actual events do not fit the spirit of the trope. I'll delete the example and comment the reason section to direct back to the discussion page if anybody wants to debate it so we can keep the Natter off the main page.
Chuckg: I disagree. Saying that Hinata's overall goal was achieved implies that she was deliberately trying to use her death to bring out the kyuubi, which not only makes no sense but would qualify for Stuffed into the Fridge even if that surmise was correct. And if she wasn't intending that, then what on Earth was she hoping to accomplish? To delay Pain for three seconds? Was anything other than the kyuubi expected to help arrive in that time? Whether intentional or not, Hinata's sole action that actually shifted the tempo of the fight was motivating Naruto to a new level of powerup-rage by dying. That's the definition of Stuffed into the Fridge, as per its entry.
That Other 1 Dude: I think it's meant to be a subversion of The Power of Love just to make it especially painful. However, it's still a case of Stuffed into the Fridge (again, assuming actual death).
Red Viking: Personally, I think that the fandom is going through a Freak Out at the moment.
Chuckg: *embarassed chuckle* Yes, yes we are.
Rogue 7: *not-embarrassed chuckle* Ayup. And even though I'm in the middle of it, I think it's hilarious.
That Other 1 Dude: Could not. Agree. More. Though I'd find it funny if I didn't feel an inexplicable need to counter-act the Entry Pimping about this because it's assuming too much and creating needless spoilers. On the other hand, at least I can honeslty say I know what it's like when this kind of fandom shitstorm breaks out.
Chuckg: Hey, if the author wants us to believe she's dead, why should we be criticized for taking him at face value until and unless contradictory evidence pours in? I mean, yeah sure, if she turns up alive again we're going to have to go back and zap a lot of entries, but such is the wiki magic.
Clendy82: I just have a natural gut reaction against posting anything as concrete taking place in the current arc, much less days (or hours) after the release of the current issue. We've been hit with about 10-12 Wham Episodes in a row. Just look at the Crowning Moment Of Awesome subpage; a good third of it is just in the last ten issues. As such, events are still in flux and very little has been settled as concrete. Like I said above, I don't believe in a Naruto character's death until we see the body and it's buried in the ground with an army of black jumpsuits in attendance. I'm trying to look at the various Naruto pages from the point of view of somebody with only a moderate amount of Naruto exposure.
Chuckg: Upon rereading the scene, I noticed something on page 14. Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but the lower right panel there is an extreme close-up of Hinata's neck — with Pain's sword stuck in it. Add in that he's going 'This is how my parents were killed right in front of me', and, its looking more like stabbing her behind the obstruction was simply Gory Discretion Shot rather than a fakeout. As far as 'not believing in a Naruto character's death etc.', wasn't that the reaction after Kakashi and Jiraiya? Who actually did turn out to be dead? The plot armor is no longer infallible.
Clendy82: Hmmmm. That panel confused me while I was reading it before. My first thought was that it was a side view of Pain's hand covered in blood, but now I'm not so sure; there's alot of weird angles in there. As for your examples, the jury is still out on Kakashi, at least to me (it would be such a lame way to go out: Dying of chakra exhaustion to save Choji, of all people, just so he can tell Tsunade that Pain can push and pull people with his mind. And look how incredibly useful that information turned out to be.) As for Jiraiya...well...he had his arm cut off, his throat crushed, and had about 65,535 stab wounds before falling into a lake, swords still embedded in him. The ambiguity there is kind of lacking. The only reason I say that there's a lingering sense of Death Is Cheap is that it's happened before; during the Rescue Sasuke arc, Choji and Neji both had full-on death scenes in the manga, suffering from chakra exhaustion (there's my Kakashi justification) and wounds thought to be unrecoverable from, both out in the middle of nowhere with almost no hope of rescue, yet live they did.
Hmmmm. Just thought of something. Thus far, throughout the entire series, not one of the Rookie 9, nor anybody in their age group, has died. It's always been the older ninjas, the adults, that have kicked the bucket. The series has made a big deal about the younger generation always being ready to surpass the old, and all the deaths, at least recently (Asuma and Jiraiya, standing out) have had the theme of, "I've taught him everything I know, it's okay to move on, the village is in safe hands". I'm sure there's a WMG to be made out of that, but I'm not sure what it is.
Chuckg: And, having reread the scene yet again, and discussing it with others, I'll take it out of Stupid Sacrifice and Love Makes You Dumb even though its still Stuffed into the Fridge. Her initial entry into the fight on page 8 is actually trying to hit Pain in the back from surprise, which is at least an actual plan. Pity that Naruto's vocal surprise at seeing her there spoiled her ambush.
Rogue 7: I forget where I saw it, but someone did an analysis of that one panel. It's Hinata, lying on her side. Her arm is pointed towards the left of the panel, body pointing downwards.
Chuckg: You mean this analysis
◊? Just saw it. Not sure if I believe it, given that it makes a few assumptions of its own. (And also requires me to believe that Pain deliberately chose not to kill someone, which is about as OOC as Shikamaru suddenly adopting Rock Lee's training schedule.)
Rogue 7: the one I saw didn't have the blade, just that that black was blood pooling.
That Other 1 Dude: Oh wait, now I understand what happened. He knocked her down, and then stabbed her. I thought he stabbed her and knocked her back at the same time (which is why I was much more hesistant to conclude that she actually died as that's not nearly as violent). My biggest problem with that analysis is that it's assuming the blade broke off in the process, when they've been shown to be much more durable and able to plot through human flesh before (except when Pain doesn't want them to be). I have to agree with Rogue 7 on this in that it looks like her armpit with a pool of blood coming out from somewhere on her chest and leaking downward (her bodies was knocked back into a raised slant of land). The illusion of a blade is from the way her jacket is folded (there are three creases separating her arm, armpit, and side), which also puts the source of the bleeding higher on the body than the analysis suggests.
Chuckg: And, according to spoilers (and a posted scan) at the narutofan.com forums, Hinata starts out the next issue dying, but not 100% dead yet (given that dead people don't have thought balloons). Granted, given how messed up she looked, its entirely possible that she might finish bleeding to death on the very next page, or there might be a last-second rescue, or God only knows what. We'll have to wait until the issue comes out to make sure. And yes, This Troper is still utterly mystified as to how the hell Pain had a helpless, immobile target at arms' length, and yet still did not hit an immediately fatal spot.
Clendy82: Issue 438 has just been released. I'll try to keep my smug "I Knew It!"-ness to a minimum. On another note, it's kind of hard to tell, but did Naruto just blow up the Hokage Mountain? And Anko's back? With Sai and Yamato? Tracking down Kabuto? So many questions...
That Other 1 Dude: I'm not sure if he destroyed the thing either. Also, weren't a lot of people hiding in there?
Rampulus: There were, just like in the last invasion, but the blast seemed to miss the shelters in the mountain. Then again, they might have been resurrected too if anything did happen to them.
Red Viking: I was wondering, should we make an entirely new Spoiler page for Naruto like how there's a Crowning Moment Of Awesome page and a WMG page? These recent chapters are starting to disrupt the main article, especially with the Hinata spoilers underneath the series' description. That way, we can keep track of all the recent spoilers and add them in after a certain amount of time. What say you all?
Chuckg: I advise against. If we do it for Naruto, every series will want one. Also, this spoiler explosion is a temporary condition — when "Pain vs. Konoha" finally stops, the pace should slow down to normal. The spoiler block underneath the series' description is intended to be a temporary fix for this problem that we can delete the instant its no longer needed, while an additional page would not be as temporary.
Mr.91: Why exactly does, on the characters page, the lines under Tenten "I'm afraid that's all we know, gentlemen." link to Metalocalypse?
That Other 1 Dude: It's a joke from Metalocalypse (one member of The Omniscient Council of Vagueness says this after describing Deathklok's member in what was essentially the same as the opening) about how little has actually been detailed about her.
lanky: I'm just going to mention this here, since Hinata is a damned divisive character when it comes to the Naruto fandom. I tossed Break the Cutie up here, since I really think she qualifies for the trope given how brutally Kishimoto goes out of his way to destroy her confidence during the Chunin arc at Neji's hands. Then, y'know, the whole scare during the Anyone Can Die arc with Pain. Kishimoto's Genre Savvy enough to know people were freaking the fuck out during the latest arc given the sheer number of casualties he'd inflicted on his main cast. In fact, he might qualify for an author entry on this list for this very reason.
Red Viking: But Hinata doesn't break, she just has low self confidence. Had she broke, then nothing Naruto said would have helped her. As for the Pain arc, that wasn't Break the Cutie. That was a massive Freak Out from the fans.
Rampulus: If anything, Hinata becomes more confident as a result of fighting Neji, as she tells Naruto that she starts to like herself after her defeat in the preliminaries.
Seriously people, lay off the Danzo hate. I know he's not exactly the most likeable guy around but he isn't nearly as bad as he's being made out to be.
Great Pikmin Fan: why does it say in the edit page (or whatever) that this article describes a trope? Did the reviews turn into massive flame wars or something?
Anaheyla: I contributed a review myself and at the time there was maybe one response to another review. Dunno whether a flamewar erupted after that point but...
Rampulus: Might we consider not allowing edits on plot developments until a group besides Sleepy Fans releases a scanlation? Sleepy Fans has made mistakes in the past, even before a significant error in Chapter 453 (suggesting Sasuke wanted to kill all five Kages), and it might be best to avoid basing examples on unreliable sources.
{{Rogue 7)): The only problem with that is that I get my Naruto updates from One Manga, and since they only ever use Sleepy Fans for some reason, I don't want to be stopped from adding examples.
Rampulus: Manga Toshokan is a good source that, best of all, typically features multiple translations. I've recently made a point of using it in links.
Rampulus: I'd like to hear some more opinions on this, especially since supposedly confirmed spoilers for the upcoming chapters may shed light on the "Madara is the former Mizukage" plot thread. There doesn't seem to be any follow-up on what Sai said to Sakura, but the dialogue mentioned seems to be only half a chapter's worth, and the flashback in the last chapter was left out of many of the spoilers, so it's possible it will come up in the next chapter. If this is the case, Sleepy Fans' translation could pose problems and cause us to post inaccurate information.
ryzvonusef: I would like to recommend Mangahelpers, since they have neatly arranged sourced of raws, translation and scanlations in many languages. And the translations there are the ones used by most scan groups (except Sleepyfans, sigh!) so we can quite direct from the translator's page, and be aware of any edits. Oh, and it has the largest manga/manhwa/manhua database to date, so we can use for any topic. :)
- Also, since Manga Toshokan has been suffering constant server problems as of late, I recommend Mangashare, it too has multiple sources.
Rogue 7: With regards to the natter I axed on Foreshadowing- Jiraya, Orochimaru, and Tsunade are all derived from an old Japanese legend- I forget the title, honestly, which specifically associated them with Toad, Snake, and Slug. Showing the kids on each of their "totem" animals was most likely deliberate, based on just how similar the Sannin are to those in the legend.
Nithael: the legend is "The tale of the gallant Jiraiya" (or "Jiraiya Goketsu Monogatari").
Kris Mahai: Removed Keet from both the main page and the character sheet for Naruto. It's already been decided on the Keet discussion page that Naruto isn't an example. He's been re-added to the Keet page at least three times. Just a request to not add him any more.
Also, removed Cute Shotaro Boy, because like above, he doesn't really fit.
Red Viking: Removed the following: Misaimed Fandom: While Pain has done many terrible acts, people tend to focus on those and forget about his being established as an Anti-Villain, somehow being upset over his being suddenly given a tragic backstory. Just seems like an open invitation for a bunch of Justifying Edits. A tragic back story doesn't automatically give someone a free pass for everything they've done.
Regarding the removal of Relationship Writing Fumble, from the page history: "reason: It's not a Relationship Writing Fumble because Hinata's feelings are quite clear and there's been a bunch of build up with Sakura. Wait until the actual pairings hit because 'then it may be a case of this trope, but not before."
Three years ago, I would have accepted this. Since then the series has way past outlived its omniscient Four Lines, All Waiting license in that regard. What, we won't be allowed to call Naruto out on the endless Ship Tease sans progress until 2074 when the manga ends with Naruto wheezing on his deathbed, "I only regret... Not having married..." gasp wheeze the end?
Red Viking: You can't call Hinata's feelings a Relationship Writing Fumble because she's clearly stated her intentions. As for Sakura, if she hooks up with Naruto, then it's not a fumble because all of that build up makes for a logical conclusion. If Sakura always saw him as a friend, then there would be an argument for a fumble. Being dissatisfied with the drawn-out status of the pairings isn't a reason to start declaring a Relationship Writing Fumble because that's what It Just Bugs Me! is for. Besides, all signs are pointing towards a resolution on this matter, so just hold out for a bit longer.
Triple Elation: All right, I seem to have assumed Relationship Writing Fumble encompassed anything having to do with relationship writing that was a fumble (maybe it could use a more specific title?). Still, it's not that It Just Bugs Me!. It bugs anyone who is not only into this series for the explosions. Up to now romance just wasn't a big deal in this series so that was ok, but recently the manga has started to pretty much push this unresolved issue in your face. Seeing as it has been not resolving this issue for longer than Duke Nukem Forever has been in development...
Rampulus:As I mentioned on WMG, it's entirely likely that nothing will happen until the Sasuke situation is resolved, given Naruto and Sakura's unresolved issues with him; Naruto has stated that he can't tell Sakura how he feels as long as he hasn't fulfilled his promise to Sasuke and it's somewhat unlikely that Sakura would forget about Sasuke and go with Naruto without one final scene putting her feelings to rest. Throughout much of the series, various blocks had been put in place of characters expressing their feelings for others or having them returned (and legitimately so), and now that Sakura knows how Naruto feels about her, Naruto knows how Hinata feels about him, and Naruto and Sakura are being forced to decide how to deal with Sasuke, the series seems to be buliding toward a resolution to those questions, and possibly the story itself.
Anaheyla: Ha! Spoilers for latest Naruto chapter contain Tite Kubo scale trolling.
Red Viking: Who said you had to have eyes to use the Sharingan!?
whitetigah: KUUUUUBOOOOOOOOOOOOOO— wait, I mean... KISHIMOTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
thatother1dude: God, fuck you Anaheyla. "writer making a plot twist I don't like means he's a troll" is the most annoying meme ever. Your haiku also sucks: among other things, you made up for your last line having too few syllables by adding a separate one-syllable word which is just you agreeing with yourself. You could at least just added "is" to the end instead.
Anaheyla sez: 1: Overreacting much? 2: Tsk, such language. 3: As it happens, I don't dislike the Sharingarm(much as I feel it's unnecessary). 4: I'll grant you that my Haiku skills aren't the greatest. A poet I am not. :)
Anaheyla sez: Is there a particular reason for the removal of the Wall Banger trope from the main page? Just out of curiosity.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Seeing as it has its own folder at Wallbangers/Manga, I doubt it.
thatother1dude: Because that article is, in general, a complete piece of shit which has no standards, exists for nothing but complaining, and if it continues to exist at all (despite not being in any way a trope) should at the very least be quarantined to its own section of the wiki. The whole thing is just people's kneejerk bitching about everything the second that it happens. There reason there are a lot "lately" is mostly Nostalgia Filter a combination of all the other things that cause Trope Decay: it's a poorly defined "trope" which just makes it even more of a magnet for shoe-horning, people think it's TV Tropes is a good outlet for their rage, and with the page's increasingly poor regulation no one holds back in adding anything or gets their example deleted.
Some New Guy: Holy shit. Calm down. A simple "I don't like Wall Banger" would have sufficed.
thatother1dude: Technically speaking, the only special emphasis of any of that was on one part, the rest just comes off as that "loud". I didn't even use any exclamation points.
Anaheyla: Can a good reason be presented why Wall Banger should be left off the list, other than thatother1dude overreacting to peoples' criticism of Naruto?
thatother1dude: I'm not "overreacting to criticism", I'm just trying to keep this article from being a giant rant, keep it more about, you know, tropes. Wall Banger is supposed to be a specific event, not just a general statement (like "there are a lot (recently)", or "a lot of stuff related to X"). If we can't do that without it becoming an enormous laundry-list or a magnet for natter and Edit Wars (which is what it was a while ago), I don't see why it's worth keeping. There isn't a dire need to list every possible trope.
Anaheyla: Well, if I may make a humble proposal. Keep it in there with an example or two (Say, Sasuke's Great Snake Escape, and Madara being the Big Bad). Any extra examples, or "However"s or "Justified in that"s should be deleted and referred to this discussion page where the editor can make his case.
thatother1dude: So it's just like any other thing on this page: if someone find something not to be an example, they take it to the discussion until what should be there can be agreed upon.
And while I have no objection to listing Sasuke suddenly having teleporting powers (which doesn't even make sense as something he got from absorbing Orochimaru) that are never explained or come up again, I'll argue against Madara right now.
Now is it about Madara being alive or him becoming the main villain? Even if the latter has a negative impact on the quality of the story, I question how a shadowy organization having a secret leader is especially implausible (and Orochimaru dying is a completely different issue).
Anaheyla: Madara being alive is irksome, but not especially Wall Banger-ish and having him be the leader of Akatsuki is a stretch but nothing I can't live with. Many a Dragon has proven better at the evil business than their boss, who exist mainly as moving scenery that occasionally twirl their moustaches and say, "MWAHAHA!". Opinions may vary, but what was the purpose in ousting Nagato from the position when he already had a decent goal and a novel plan for achieving it(hell, even his fake plan about ruling the world was pretty cool), especially in favor of the Moon's Eye which has evidently failed twice already. Seems like Madara was just thrown in at the last minute to get Sasuke back on his feet so he could continue being the bane of half the fanbase. Not to mention it succeeded in further drawing attention away from Naruto(you know, the main character?) and to continue the trend of making Sasuke the center of attention.
thatother1dude: But like I said, even if doesn't make for a good story, a Wall Banger is defined by breaking Willing Suspension of Disbelief;
Being anticlimactic/unsatisfying isn't a Wall Banger, it's a Missed Moment of Awesome
Having a plot be dumped for no reason isn't a Wall Banger if it happened in a logical manner, it's They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot
A Wall Banger is something that is implausible (what is "plausible" really depends on the story) or contradictory to what is previously established. It's not just "anything you hated to happen"; no matter how much people dislike Sasuke being the center of attention, that's something on a meta-level, and thus not about Willing Suspension of Disbelief.
Anyway, I figured Nagato was demoted to The Dragon * because the author is OK with ending a Story Arc with the villain pulling a Heel–Face Turn, but not the whole story. Also, did you mean to say "Why did he introduce a villain who has already been beaten twice before?", because there's no way the Moon's Eye Plan failed before; he didn't even develop it until after he met Nagato.
Anaheyla: Well, either way. One example is just as good as two. Sasuke's GSE, but no Madara. ^_^ If there are no objections I'll see to that right now.
Triple Elation: Actually, I would argue for Madara as final villain as more of an Ass Pull - in execution rather than concept. "Mwahaha Uchiha Madara is still alive" would've made for a decent plot twist in and of itself, but TOBI turning out to be Madara? I'm catching up on Shippuden now and I somehow have to believe that this girly-squeeing, comic-relief, throwaway piece of plot fluff is the FINAL VILLAIN. This was so evidently, evidently, not thought of in advance.
thatother1dude: Uh, not really. Quite a few people were completely expecting Tobi to be some fake identity and/or Obfuscating Stupidity, mostly because despite supposedly just being some comic relief idiot he was keeping every single bit of his personal appearance besides his hair hidden (the fact that his mask puts emphasis on his one eye in particular lead people to think he had something to do with the Uchiha clan). In short, anyone who wears a mask has to be hiding something.
Triple Elation: Yeah, there's "hiding something" and then there's this. Sure, people were expecting it because as you said people automatically expect stuff like this to end up as identity plot twists, but I still think Tobi was not originally conceived of as an Obfuscating Stupidity front for the Big Bad but got shoehorned into the role later, and it shows. At any rate I get that as long as you're watching this page nobody is going to get to add a Bad Writing trope to it ever, so I'll try to just list the details under their appropriate tropes (e.g. Reset Button, Obfuscating Stupidity).
thatother1dude: You can keep saying that, but you have no real evidence that Tobi wasn't meant for something like this other than how ridiculous his character was, and wouldn't that indicate that he was faking it more? Isn't making a seemingly irrelevant thing turn out to be important a really common thing in writing? Kabuto being a Sound Village spy didn't really have any foreshadowing, yet no one complained about it.
Also, I had no objection to adding that part about the "great snake escape" under Wall Banger (someone else moved it to Plot Armor; I don't care, but if someone else wants to move it back I'm not objecting), I'm just sick of it becoming a huge run-on to complain about anything even when they have nothing to do with breaking Willing Suspension of Disbelief with people adding every event the second it happens before any sort of explanation can be given.
Anaheyla: Am I missing something? Was Sasuke using Tsukuyomi just there or did he really pull a new summon out of his ass with no explanation whatsoever?
thatother1dude: He couldn't use his old summon (snakes) anymore, so he needed to find a new summon or the whole ability would be useless. It might be explained where he got that one from later (it's sort of odd that Madara wouldn't have known he did that; considering Akatsuki is the place he could get it from easiest, and according to the databooks his hobby is falconry).
Anaheyla: I can't think where he could've found the time, unless he gained it before Itachi's death. Since then he's either been with Madara or off on one of Madara's errands, and even then I can't imagine he could have taken the time to hunt down a summoning contract for hawks without Madara knowing about it, considering Zetsu was tailing him the whole time. I'll bet you money Kishi will just say something like "Oh, he's had it since before the Uchiha Massacre."
thatother1dude: I'm not really sure about the time frame for some of these things: didn't Sasuke joined Akatsuki and Naruto leave for Sage training at about the same time, while the later lasted like a month of two? Did Sasuke spend that time before or after fighting Killer Bee? It doesn't help that it seems like all this stuff is happening immediately after each other: going straight from Taka recovering to Pain invading right back to Taka ready to go makes it seems like Sasuke and Suigetsu recovered from those injuries in less than a day (and somehow Karin replaced her glasses without going anywhere). And if he's going to do some "he's had it for a while thing" the earliest I can see is when he was with Orochimaru (how the hell would he have gotten a summon when he was a kid?).
Manawyddan: Where is it explicitly stated that Sasuke can't summon snakes anymore ? It's just fanon. It has also never been stated that he could summon snakes only because he had absorbed Orochimaru. The one and only with several summonings was Pain's Animal realm, and they were all dead bodies ('cos they had the black thingies), so the rules may be quite different in that case. I can't remember if Jiraiya stated that one can have only one summoning when Naruto signed up his contract. But one can argue that the "You can't have more than one summoning at once" is also fanon. The author is perfectly aware this new summoning would bug the audience, otherwise he wouldn't have felt the necessity to lampshade it. It's not the worst asspull, but it's the most blatant. And PLEASE don't summon animal motifs there, this argument is invalid when talking about in-universe rules.
For the "when", there is possibly a little timeskip between the end of the fight vs. Itachi and the arrival of Bunta and his son at Konoha to report the death of Jiraiya. Approximatively one month, since Fukasaku said it takes one month of walk to the Myoboku mountain.
Anaheyla: Hey look, Sasuke's got a shiny new bow. Ass Pull or no Ass Pull? What say ye! On another note, by coincidence, just yesterday, I was wondering why there wasn't a Sharingan move that wasn't named after Izanagi. ^_^
thatother1dude: I don't understand. It was pretty obvious from when it first showed up that his version was different from Itachi's, and that the full form would be different from the others as well. Why is it at all weird for it to have different weapon? It's not like it's shown to do anything weird so far, it's just a bow. Considering the thing's some sort of ephemeral spirit, it changing shape to have a different weapon is the least unusual thing it could do.
And yeah, I figured something would inevitably be named after Izanagi ever since I read that (though I actually figured it would be).
Anaheyla: On the subject of Danzo, the bit about "stolen kids from their families for their powers", to whom does this refer? Because I thought ROOT was comprised primarily of orphans?
Manawyddan: I can't see anyone. Maybe the editor thought of Fu and Torune, which are obviously from existing clans. If they're orphans, it's not impossible to think they should've been adopted by relatives of their clan. Hence the idea of "stolen from their families". Maybe. Anyway, there is little to no evidence that this statement is true (for the moment).
thatother1dude: I think ROOT is a combination of orphans and people who joined because they agreed with Danzo. I doubt Torune could have gotten the nano-bug thing if he hadn't grown up as part of the clan.
Red Viking: Regarding the Moral Event Horizon. I agree with thatother1dude. Sasuke's dangerously close towards crossing it, but in order for him to officially cross that line, we need to wait a week to see if he just got Karin killed. This series makes a big point about Nakama and protecting your friends, so if Sasuke sacrificed Karin in order kill Danzo, then he'll be, what Kakashi said way back in the beginning of the series, "worse than trash."
Manawyddan: Let's hope it's just some trick, otherwise the Moral Event Horizon will triple as Villain Ball / Idiot Ball (killing your medic ? Seriously ??? and Ungrateful Bastard.
Red Viking: Guys, just wait a week. The thing is, as long as Sasuke hasn't killed Karin, he's still "redeemable", hence it's not a Moral Event Horizon. If Karin died because of his actions, then he's definitely (and finally) crossed the line. If we go around saying 'he may have if it's not suchandsuch,' it only means we have to delete it if the story proves us wrong.
Manawyddan: What about if he didn't have the intention to kill her, but messes up and kills her anyway ? Seems close to Kick The Wrong Dog, but that doesn't exactly fits the bill...
Red Viking: The thing is, we don't know if Karin is dead or not. That's why we need to wait until the next chapter comes out because we can neither confirm nor deny what just happened. When Hinata got impaled by Pain, people started freaking out and added a whole bunch of things that not only disrupted the the main page, but some of the information that got added ended up not being true because people didn't wait to see the resolution. We should get a definite answer next week so let's all just wait until then.
Nithael: And when Naruto said to Pain that he wouldn't kill him, people started adding Karma Houdini because that obviously meant that Pain would never pay for his - oh wait, he did. And when Itachi suddenly appeared when Sasuke was fighting Danzo, people started adding He's Back and Back from the Dead and whatever, because it couldn't possibly be a genjutsu or somethin - oh wait, it totally was. And let's not even start with Wall Banger ("Danzo the sixth Hokage?!!?! And leader of the alliance of the 5 countries??!!11! They're Too Dumb to Live ! Oh wait, he's got Mind Control powers, so it's completely justified. My bad.")
Red Viking: Ok, that's a little too harsh, Nithael.
Manawyddan: That's so funny 'coz I personnally never get involved in those stupid editing wars. I was just wondering if it finally happens something much more difficult to describe.
Xylon Lionheart: Now that the chapter is out, is it okay to add Sasuke as an example to the trope? It's pretty much confirmed that he intentionally stabbed through her.
Nithael: Well, Karin seem honestly shocked, Danzo doesn't use his retcon no jutsu and Sasuke seems to really mean what he says about Karin becominig a burden, so yeah. I still think that Karin may survive somehow, but it wouldn't change Sasuke's actions, so I don't mind. And sorry if I seemed rude or something, but I was just pissed off of all the people editing the page without even looking at the discussion page or at the page history.
Red Viking: Agreed. Even if Karin somehow survived that, Sasuke pretty much gave her a You Have Outlived Your Usefulness speech. He's crossed the line.
ryzvonusef: Guys, I am thinking of a simple uniform spoiler policy all over the site, as far as Naruto is concerned; only spoiler tag that which has not been released in the free version of Crunchyroll. Since anybody anywhere in the world can watch that version, I don't think we endanger any sort area-specific bias. Also, all those bug chucks of spoilers are getting annoying, half of everybody's charcter entry, for example, are submerged under spoiler tags. What do you say?
Red Viking: I don't know about Crunchyroll, specifically. I never even heard of it until you mentioned it.
ryzvonusef: Here you go: [1] Totally legal subs. The newest episode becomes free after one week, which when I want to have the spoiler tags cutoff date. I think its totally fair then, no one can claimed they were unfairly spoiled.
Red Viking: Thanks.
ryzvonusef: You are welcome. So...do we have a concensus? I would like if we all agreed on a uniform spoiler policy, and IMHO, my idea seems unbiased w.r.t region.
Red Viking: I have no objection if no one else does.
Manawyddan: Wouldn't it be useful to do what they dif on the The Princess And The Frog ? I mean, separating the tropes about the show itself and its contains (plot tropes, character tropes...) from those describing what comes around (mainly, fandom-related tropes) ?
Anaheyla: To what end? TPATF got a page seperation because it was controversial. And while Kishimoto is no stranger to controversy (Sasuke and lolDarkness), it's not quite the same. Besides, why single out Naruto. Why not suggest to change every shonen / anime page for such a division?
Anaheyla: I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the latest spoilers. Character Derailment? Maybe. An attempt at The Mole? Probably.
Red Viking: Probably trying to lead Sasuke into a false sense of security. Still, my knee-jerk reaction to this was What The Hell, Sakura?
Anaheyla: A ninja engaging in subterfuge? Unheard of says I! What's next a ninja hiding in the shadows and wearing dark colors?
Red Viking: I know! They might as well use precise, calculated, surgical strikes instead of flashy techniques while they're at it!
Anaheyla: Spoilers are out. It's Kakashi's turn to die next.
Red Viking: Kishimoto is really trying to hammer the point home that Sasuke's a bad person, isn't he?
Anaheyla: Could it be? Is Sasuke actually suffering from the negative side effects of the Mangekyo Sharingan? I'm shocked. What I'm not shocked about is the fact that his Susanoo got even stronger, or the unexplained power boost he'll inevitably going to be getting for the next chapter.
Manawyddan: Actually, that's not abused. Itachi's Susanoo had 3 modes, and so has Sasuke's. Skeleton, Warrior, Armoured warrior. But Sasuke's warrior mode seemed much more refined than Itachi's, then the mistake of taking it for complete. Even I made this one. Sasuke's does have 4 modes, but the one we didn't know is the weakest. When it's only a ribcage.
Alan: Can we really put Sasuke under Complete Monster in the same entry where Deidara gets off scottfree by talking a lot and Pain and Danzo excuses are acknowledged. The reason we aren't getting flashbacks to what his Freudian Excuse is that we already know all about it. Doesn't mean he doesn't have one.
whitetigah: The point of that entry isn't that he doesn't have a Freudian Excuse, is that it's completely and totally inadequate to explain the way he's behaving.
The Freudian Excuse is that his brother was cast out from the village after killing all his clan under the village elders' orders, and caused both himself and Sasuke a lot of pain in the years since. What does this justify?
- Wanting to kill Danzo and the other elders of the Leaf? It does, they are responsible for what happened to Itachi after all.
- Wanting to destroy the Leaf? A bit of a stretch, depending on how you view past events, since it can very easily be interpreted as Sasuke Completely Missing The Point of Itachi's actions, i.e. protect the Leaf, even at the cost of his clan, but for the sake of the argument let's say it's justified.
- Attacking the Kage summit with the intention to kill the Kages? Excuse me, what do the Kages (except Danzo) have to do with what Itachi did?
- Stabbing Karin to get at Danzo? Possibly, if he saw it as the only way to get Danzo.
- Telling Karin she's completely useless and trying to kill her? What? Seriously, what? The girl who saved his life at least three times, useless? And besides, how is this related to the Freudian Excuse?
I could go on, but I think I made my point.
Alan: No, you go on and explain to me how this is crucially different from Kakuzu (village turned on him, so he killed everyone and decided to only trust in money and on top of that randomly kills anyone including his partner, over and over again if he has any kind of problem with them), or Orochimaru (was a afraid of death so killed hundreds of orphans, destroyed villages, and taught people how to by heartless in the pursuit of immortality) and still worse then Deidara & Sasori (no reason whatsoever for turning against their villages, completely willing to kill their partners if they get in the way) or Hidan (was bored and found a neat religion). And how does Pain's past Konoha destroyed his villages, so aims to make a Kinjutsu, sell it and let a country, no matter which country that is literally wipe itself of the map in it's entirety on the assumption that this might scare people to stop fighting for a while then repeat when they get started again.) It is mentioned of Pain that his attempts to explain his villanous actions with his Tragic Past made him a Scrappy because in the eyes of the fans it really didn't... but it still kept him from being a Complete Monster because...? I don't get what is so radically different from these people about Sasuke. We know full well what led him down the path of darkness. The only difference with the people that allegedly avert the Complete Monster trope is we saw it play out in real time before his villainy.
Nithael: Well, Kakuzu's crimes are Offstage Villainy, and so are Sasori's (except the capture of Gaara, he killed a Kazekage and apparently wiped a country we've never heard again since), Hidan and Deidara are Evilly Affable (Hidan is the Butt-Monkey Played for Laughs and Deidara is pretty much an Ensemble Dark Horse), and Pain is a Well-Intentioned Extremist Anti-Villain. Sasuke is neither of them (his Evil Laugh and You Have Outlived Your Usefulness moments negate the Anti-Villain side),except maybe Ensemble Dark Horse. After, wether he is a Complete Monster or not... And I've got nothing on Orochimaru.
whitetigah: Let's take a look at the Complete Monster entry. To wit, "true Complete Monsters tend to have a few very important characteristics in common":
- The character must do truly horrendous acts, and the story makes no attempt to gloss these over or present them in a positive light. Acts concealed behind a Villainy Discretion Shot don't count.
- This directly disqualifies Kakuzu, Deidara, Hidan, Madara and Sasori, since everything they did that would make them Complete Monsters are done behind a Villainy Discretion Shot — i.e.: we don't actually see them doing the acts.
- A Freudian Excuse is either not present, or inadequate to excuse his behavior.
- All those who could be qualified as Complete Monsters (Kakuzu, Deidara, Hidan, Sasori, Pain, Sasuke, Orochimaru, Madara) don't have a Freudian Excuse that's even nearly good enough.
- The character must show no regret or remorse for his actions, however terrible. It's better if he obviously enjoys it, but complete emotionlessness or lack of caring will suffice.
- This disqualifies Pain, since he's shown repeatedly to be a Well-Intentioned Extremist who doesn't like what he's doing, but does what he has to do (from his p.o.v.).
- The character must evoke fear and/or hatred from the other characters in the story.
- Every single character mentioned does, at one point or another.
- The character should affect the tone of the work. His scenes are the darkest, scariest, and most serious. He can push a work into Darker and Edgier territory simply by his presence, and if it's already dark, he makes it a candidate for High Octane Nightmare Fuel.
- And that's precisely what Sasuke, Madara and Orochimaru do, but not the others.
- Defeating the character should be a major element of the story, if not the main plot — especially if his opponents are motivated by revenge or hatred for him.
- Again, Sasuke, Madara and Orochimaru qualify, and a case could be made for Pain, so let's count him too.
- Certain types of villains make poor Complete Monsters. For instance, very rarely will a Knight Templar or Well-Intentioned Extremist be a Complete Monster, and an Anti-Villain or Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds never will.
- As mentioned, Pain is a Well-Intentioned Extremist, so doesn't count under this.
- Most importantly, the character must have no chance of redemption without being considered a Karma Houdini. The only way the story could come to anything resembling a happy ending is if he dies or is otherwise removed. A Heel Face Turn is out of the question, and nobody would believe it if it happened. There can be no Redemption Equals Death for this character, and no Fate Worse Than Death is too extreme.
- Arguably all of the above, except Pain, Deidara and maybe Sasori, fall under this; Pain doesn't because he has woken up to what he was doing and chose to bring everybody in the village back to life despite knowing fully well it would kill him — Redemption Equals Death. And what had Deidara and Sasori done that would leave them with no hope for redemption?
Therefore, let's make a count. Deidara, Sasori and Pain fit four out of eight conditions, in my opinion (which is what essentially this boils down to) not nearly enough to qualify them as Complete Monsters. Kakuzu and Hidan fit five, also not nearly enough. Madara fits seven, losing one point because he hasn't done anything directly yet. Sasuke and Orochimaru fit all eight.
I hope I have been exaustive enough.
Alan: What you are forgetting that after the whole "capturing Gaara" thing they all particapted in the "sucking the very life out of Gaara through his mouth" thing. Which killed him. No Villainy Discretion Shot for that. That's all a joint effort for all of the Akatsuki. Orochimaru had the whole Third Hokage thing.
- The character should affect the tone of the work. His scenes are the darkest, scariest, and most serious. He can push a work into Darker and Edgier territory simply by his presence, and if it's already dark, he makes it a candidate for High Octane Nightmare Fuel.
- Hidan, Kakuzu, Sasori and Pain ALL fit at the time that their fights took place.
- Defeating the character should be a major element of the story, if not the main plot — especially if his opponents are motivated by revenge or hatred for him.
- Hidan at least get in on this, since Shikamaru's struggle was central for the arc.
- Most importantly, the character must have no chance of redemption without being considered a Karma Houdini. The only way the story could come to anything resembling a happy ending is if he dies or is otherwise removed. A Heel Face Turn is out of the question, and nobody would believe it if it happened. There can be no Redemption Equals Death for this character, and no Fate Worse Than Death is too extreme.
- Arguably all of the above, except Pain, Deidara and maybe Sasori, fall under this; Pain doesn't because he has woken up to what he was doing and chose to bring everybody in the village back to life despite knowing fully well it would kill him — Redemption Equals Death. And what had Deidara and Sasori done that would leave them with no hope for redemption?
- Naruto is already preparing to work on Sasuke And how in the hell does Sasori and Deidara have a chance at redemption? Did you not hear Sasori's own loving grandmother give up on him after seeing and talking to him. He killed three Kazekages. Deidara has the least motive and explaining background story out of every villain in this manga. In this manga if Naruto is working with an empty deck, that's pretty much the end of it.
Hidan has 8, Kakuzu has 7 (if Shikamaru had faced him an 8 but Naruto didn't hate him nor was he an important enemy for him save as a bridge to cross to Sasuke), Sasori's an 7 or 8 depending on whether you consider Chiyo the POV in that battle, Pain is a 5, Deidara is a 6 (wasn't exactly important for Sasuke and his methods were effective but not gruelingly evil), Orochimaru is an 8, Kisame's a 5 (his methods were pretty mellow all things considered, he wasn't important, I can't say he invoked fear on anyone (maybe BTS Naruto but he seemed more preoccupied with Itachi)), Madara's 7 as you said and Sasuke's a 6 or 7(never been allowed to kill someone without immeadate reference to previous actions to establsh it as a irregularity for his character and dark charka to excuse him and Naruto is still out on whether he's irredeemable
whitetigah: I think what we have here is a failure to communicate. I set out in the beginning with the intent to prove that Sasuke fits the criteria for Complete Monster, not that other characters don't; if you think other characters fit that profile, do by all means add them in the main article, explaining your reasoning.
(By the way: yes, I was forgetting the whole "capturing Gaara" incident, thanks for pointing that out. Though in my opinion that's not a "horribly gruesome act" that would qualify them all for Complete Monster, but Your Mileage May Vary on this.)
